New member and a cry for help

I’m a new guy here with a serious problem. First, a short bit of background:

I got my private pilot license in 1983 when I was a dreamer and a rancher in Montana. I learned in a Tomahawk and that was fun enough, but I was smitten by tail draggers. I got to fly a Super Cub but, even then, I couldn’t afford it. I almost bought a Citabria 7ECA with a mighty (or mitey?) O-200, but in summers it made even a Tomahawk look like a rocket. I would spend Saturday mornings reading the yellow Trade-A-Plane and talking airplanes. I then almost bought a Taylorcraft.

But the ag business was real hard in the mid to late 80s—back to back droughts, etc. I never lost money, but I rarely netted over $4 or 5 thousand in a year. I was custom haying and harvesting on the side, and I spent some time working with an aerial applicator, which led to me flying an Ag-Wagon (not commercially) for a little bit. The owner was trying to sell his business to me, and I almost went for it before he crashed. Flying eventually fell by the wayside. I then had a tractor accident in early summer of 88 and spent the rest of it watching the crops burn up while my leg healed. So I applied to law school.

Here it is more than 25 years later. I’ve been a big-city lawyer and now I’m a small town public defender in Eastern Washington. And I’ve got the flying bug back and it won’t go away.

My medical is scheduled in two weeks and I’m in good health. I’ve got a BFR (in my case it should be a bi-decade flight review) scheduled next month. My trial schedule has been insane and I’m scaling all of that back so I can fly some.

So here’s the problem: I’m an inveterate project builder. I finished a 20 foot wooden fishing boat last January after a year’s worth of part-time work. My wife and I have been fishing essentially every week since January 2017. It’s very fun. But I don’t have a project now.

When I realized I had the flying bug back, I started innocently looking at kits. The Zenith CH 750 looked enticing, especially for my projected “mission” of taking my wife fishing to some of the Idaho lakes nearby. The various cub kits looked perfect, but too expensive. Then I stumbled on Marty’s 2+2 Wagaero and Christian Sturm’s Super Cub, and I felt the unmistakable pain of a firmly-set hook in my jaw.

So, I’ve ordered Wag Aero plans, I already have the Northland drawings, I’ve spent a huge number of hours reading forums, I’ve even started making space in my shop to fiddle with making wood spars (just to see what it’s like, nothing serious….). I used to be a pretty good Oxy-Acetylene welder and I have tanks and torches.

Wait, STOP. What am I getting into. I don’t even know what I’m building!

So, that’s help request number one: is there any cure for this silly urge?

Issue number two is more specific: I love the Super Cub, but I’m set on side-by-side seating so my wife can see what’s going on. I vacillate between a 2+2 Sportsman and a Wagabond Traveller design. If I went with the 2+2, I’d make it a 2-place. I like the idea of the longer wing and I’d probably go for 150 hp.

But the Wagabond has its charm, is lighter and probably a bit less expensive to run. It reminds me of that Taylorcraft I longed for in the 80s. But…will it do as well in higher density altitude grass strips?

So, if anyone cares to, help me out. First, talk me down from this madness. Second, tell me, if you know, is a 2+2 much harder in the long run than a Wagabond Traveler?

if fixing/(re)building it yourself is ok(you do all the labor), then buy a wreck or something that just needs rebuild....

the hours to scratch build one and buy all the pieces don't make any $$$ sense by the time you are done....

you could have bought 6 flying basket cases for the cost of what you buy ALL the new parts to build a single one...

mike mcs repair said:

if fixing/(re)building it yourself is ok(you do all the labor), then buy a wreck or something that just needs rebuild....

the hours to scratch build one and buy all the pieces don't make any $$$ sense by the time you are done....

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Well, yes, that's a good point, and right in line with what I'm asking. Maybe I'm hoping you all can help me keep my feet on the ground--and I know of a rotted out Pacer 50 miles away waiting for someone to put it back together. I've been reluctant to think that way because of what I perceive to be "old-bones."

As a friend of mine once told me that he had been bitten by the aviation bug early in life and although he was vaccinated against it several times it remained a life long affliction. He died about age 90 with aircraft projects underway and a hangar full of planes.

I too started in a Traumahawk, bought a Piper Pacer, Flybaby, PA12, PA14, C180, and have been building a 2+2 from scratch for about 10 years. I have enjoyed each of them. My advice would be to buy the best Cub you can afford. If you find that your wife likes to fly then consider a Pacer for the side by side seating and lower cost. To build a plane takes a long time especially if you are still working, have a family, and want to fly something while building. Building and flying are very different activities. Some people enjoy one more than the other. Both are fun.

My first love was a Vagabond, loved every second till I flew my friends Pa11. If your care about your wife's view then think tandem so that she can look out both sides. I now own a side by side J4 and a Ex 0200 super cub and love them both but sitting on the centerline in a tandem make me feel more like Bob Hoover.

Glenn

Sportsman look like great planes

http://glasairaviation.com/sportsman-gallery/

Havent flown in one though.

PM me and we can get together. I'm in Spokane. Your enthusiasm should not go unchecked. Read Bill Rusk's dissertation on mission identification, Don't make a move without being sure. Mikey's advice above is spot on.

Anyone remember the link to the thread of the member here complaining that no one would buy his -12 project for even the cost of the parts he had invested?? Think it was Paul H??

Have a 180 and a Super Cub and unless we're going a long way my wife far prefers the cub. Why, because with a full glass door on the right she can see better.

Thanks for the input, everyone. What a great community!

mike mcs and jimboflying's advice weigh pretty close to the mark--I can tell from reading various accounts how long a scratch build takes. I love projects and have done numerous 1-3 year projects (boats, houses, shops), but 7 to 15 years? I'm 59 years old and still pretty active, but I don't know how long that will last.

I appreciate the encouragement to look at going with a cub. I should first at least take my wife up in a Super Cub before committing to some Don Quixote project.

It's sort of funny. My wife was nervous about the last boat project because of fear of the water. But she liked that I had passion for something. After launching last January, it's "when/where are we fishing this week?" I think the same sort of thing will happen on the flying project.

cubdriver2 said:

sitting on the centerline in a tandem make me feel more like Bob Hoover.
Glenn

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Who can argue against that?

Mike Woodson said:

Read Bill Rusk's dissertation on mission identification, Don't make a move without being sure.

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Right. I think I've read that before, but I'll look more closely. In my earlier flying years I hadn't thought in terms of mission. It was just, "get up there." I learned some mountain flying and want to get back to that. I'm not likely often to go farther than 150 or so miles cross country, generally. Maybe once a year I'd fly the 320 miles to Ilwaco across the state for ocean fishing. On the other hand, I'm not going to be particularly gung ho about off airport operations. FWIW, I used to be much bigger, but now I'm 175 pound and my wife is 100 pounds, so we combine to be smaller than FAA people.

As previously mentioned, define your mission first, then build or buy to suit your mission. The tinkerer/builder in you needs something to do.

One idea comes to mind for you to mull over...
If the CH-750 suits your mission in the short term, I have a good friend that has a good one for sale for a low price ($40k). The builder in you is going to want to do some finish work on the cowl and give it a proper paint job and a few other touches, but it's got 150 hrs or so of flight time on it and is a flying aircraft that I have personally inspected and advised the original builder while it was under construction (original builder passed away). You could buy it, finish it out nicely, then have it to fly while you spend a few years building the plane you really want, then sell to fund the new engine and avionics for the project plane.

-Cub Builder

Mike Woodson said:

Read Bill Rusk's dissertation on mission identification.

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Can't find it. Link?

I love the Super Cub like others here, but if you are set on side-by-side also consider the Pacer. You can get 3 of them for the price of one PA-18, and with the same engine. One drawback for back country flying, of course, is the shorter wingspan, but there are many in Alaska that go most places that cubs do.

Let me jump in here. First, welcome. I've been working on my 2+2 for a long time but getting closer to being finished. I apologize for my web site being not up to date ..... my wife says to get on it.

We got the fuselage on the gear last year and I got seats in it for the first time and my wife and I climbed in. We were very nicely surprised that we fit just fine (seats slide). So all is good. Although my build has been slow that's my choice and can be done a lot faster. I've kept the $$$ low by building about 95% of everything my self; that can be done a lot faster by spending more dollars. My experience with the Wag plans have been good; it is old school home building so don't expect step 1, step 2, etc.

I'm willing to help answer any questions you may have. I'm on the central coast in California and if you are down this way please stop in. The plane is on the gear, doors on and ready for cover. I haven't gotten much done this summer as I'm now doing the covering seminars for Stewarts Systems and and have been busy getting that up and running for the next seminar in December. PM me and we can talk on the phone. I'll be able to give you a pretty honest opinion of the 2+2 build. I'm hear to help in any way I can just as so many have helped me so far. Here's a shot of the fuselage back in July on it's way to the West Coast Cub Fly-in. Like my trailer ;-)

Marty

Marty57 said:

Like my trailer ;-)

MartyView attachment 32767

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Yes! It looks like you have the CG ahead of the axle, so why not?

Thanks so much, Marty. That's a very kind offer. I have to acknowledge that part of me is more romantic than practical and I'm still leaning toward a scratch-build project. But I also like the idea of having a flying plane while I'm at it.

As for the general suggestion to buy a flying airplane while working on the project, it seems like buying a used experimental (like a CH 750) is sort of defeating the purpose, right? What I mean is, I can't tweak it or modify it because I'm not its builder and not its mechanic.

And yet, buying a 70 year $14,000 Champ or something opens the can of worms of worrying about the airframe, etc. I also kicked around the idea of owning a C-172 with the back seats taken out, short term, but now I'm spinning my wheels again.

But, right now I'm dealing with grape and plum harvest. We've got a bumper crop in our little orchard/vineyard.

I'v got a few hours in my 2+2 and highly recommend it, It goes most places a supercub will and you can haul more stuff than you need

Tim

Here's my 2c, please note this is only my opinion. I've had 2 pacers, 56' C-180 and now a C-185F. Rebuilding a HuskyA1-A and a Starduster. I fly in Alaska half the year and live in a remote village so the 185 is my pick-up. The most fun plane was the 180. I'm personally not a fan of the Pacers, for many reasons. IMO they are a terrible bush plane and will get you in where it is VERY hard to get out of. the army pilot in me rates it very poor for crashing, that was how we rated aircraft. They will bite you for no good reason, kinda like a wolf dog mix,lol.
If you want a two seat airplane I'm a fan of the husky, I'm not entering into debate pa-18 vs Husky, but if you want a good float plane to fish with and a solid machine that will hold value that's a good bet. If you buy into something that needs to be upgraded you need to just write that money off when you sell. There was a A-1-A with floats for sale for around 90,000, but if you flew it a few years you should be able to get out close to the same money. I guess I'm driving at spend the money on something nice and look at it as a 401k that you can play in!

If I were you and on a public defender budget, I would first go "Basic Med", then get that 7 ECA, in flying condition, and then wait for that project you really want. The Champs go begging - my buddies got an O-200 7AC for maybe $28, then sold their perfectly good 65 hp for $16k. Another student bought a 115hp 7ECA, new engine and dirtbag fabric for 26, and got his license. Sold it for $19k. Bargain!

but do the basic med right now. Opinion.

I've seen more projects started and never finished, than those that come to fruition by the original builder. You mileage may vary depending on where you live, but in my location I have seen 10 rated pilots throw a tremendous amount of time and money at a project only to lose both. Time is precious, money is precious. It takes grit and dedication to finish a project. Many here have built planes and they have my envy to be able to craft a flying machine. Contemplate your age and finances and the airplane models that could fill your mission role. Time cannot be reversed. Seeing guys that lose their health and ambition as they age is disheartening after they have spent 50-100K on a project and miss their flight window. Not saying it applies to you but weigh the pros and cons carefully. There are many great capable bush planes for much less than a Cub or a project after completion. My 2 cents.

scout88305 said:

I've seen more projects started and never finished, than those that come to fruition by the original builder. You mileage may vary depending on where you live, but in my location I have seen 10 rated pilots throw a tremendous amount of time and money at a project only to lose both. Time is precious, money is precious. It takes grit and dedication to finish a project. Many here have built planes and they have my envy to be able to craft a flying machine. Contemplate your age and finances and the airplane models that could fill your mission role. Time cannot be reversed. Seeing guys that lose their health and ambition as they age is disheartening after they have spent 50-100K on a project and miss their flight window. Not saying it applies to you but weigh the pros and cons carefully. There are many great capable bush planes for much less than a Cub or a project after completion. My 2 cents.

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I appreciate the 2 cents. It's worth more than that.

Reminds me of my own past in the late 90s. I had four years into a fairly large sailboat project--had the hull and ballast complete, deck on, already had a nice Volvo diesel ready to install. And then unexpected circumstances forced a move.

I couldn't find a place for it on short notice and short finances. I vividly remember the day I took a chain saw to the whole thing so I could haul it to the landfill.

Sobering things, indeed. And I weigh that sort of thing fairly heavily. But on the plus side, I've completed far more projects than I've had to abandon, and circumstances seem pretty stable these days.

My geezer opinion - -

If you want to fly, buy an airworthy plane. Many Idaho strips are doable in a Pacer if you're careful with density altitude and weight. That's based on watching others a little bit.

If you want to build more than fly, then do a homebuilt - but heed what Marty57 says. Every little detail takes time, maybe money, and then definitely more time.

Also, for a certificated project, heed what Mike MCS says. It's a money and time pit. I rebuilt my PA-12 and got what I think is a decent plane, but it was a LOT of work, and for a school teacher a LOT of $$.

I'm in western Washington and fly to Pasco from time to time, so not all that far from you. I'd be happy to chat / get together at some point.

I learned to fly in a pacer. My wife liked to be next to me, but once she flew in the cub that is how she like to travel. The view is so much better even from the back seat!!! Go buy a cub and fly it for a few years, if that is what you like build one. DON'T BUY SOME PROJECT YOU MIGHT LIKE!!! You may find low/slow is not your style. Go fly with a lot of planes before you start a project. You may even like a MAUL!! You can fly a plane for 100 hours and sell it for what you paid for it usually, if you consider 100 bucks an hour rental you can sell it for a loss and still be ahead. Pay no attention to that Army trained pilot, the PACER is a great plane just learn to crash well.;-)
DENNY

Buy a nice Super Cub and plan to go solo. They perform better light.

Denny, I crashed one after a engine failure on take off.

This is always a cool place to look and see what people are making work in the bush. Most have AK mods. Many side by side a/c variants here. PA14, Maule, Pacer, Sedans, 170's, Stinsons, and the PA12 is wide enough to be almost 2 seats in back.
http://alaskaslist.com/1/posts/10_Transportation/59_Aircraft/

DENNY said:

the PACER is a great plane just learn to crash well.;-)

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Hah! I suppose we should all aspire to learn to crash well. That sums up a lot of what I do in my day job.

But good point, Denny. Throw in rental cost and suddenly ownership looks reasonable.

I do know I like low and slow, or high and slow for that matter. One of my favorite memories from the old days was riding a mountain wave over the Bridger Mountains in a Tomahawk at idle, bumping along at MCA around 11,000 feet, flying in formation with a bald eagle.

I'm mulling things over and slowing down a bit. I still have a fairly intense couple of months ahead because of pending major trials, but I'm rearranging my life once I get through this fall. I really appreciate the banter and suggestions.

Angling back to one of my earlier questions, generally speaking, is a Vagabond/Wagabond more like a Pacer, Taylorcraft, or what, as compared to a Cub? I'm not sure I want the shorter wings.

Buy a champ. Cheaper and will do the same thing for you a cub would.

Cub junkie said:

Buy a champ. Cheaper and will do the same thing for you a cub would.

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That may end up being what I'll do. At least for short-term. But I still have maybe an irrational worry about rusty tubes.

I'm regrouping after having my gallbladder removed Wednesday. Despite my exuberance, I was not feeling well at all the past three weeks. A few scans and voila, outpatient surgery. All's better now, supposedly, but I'm not supposed to lift more than 10 pounds for a few weeks.

Still, I can't shake the bug of a building project. Thanks to all who have added things for me to think about.

Lots to think about in these pages... but a couple of very good points:

What is the desired mission?

What is the desired mission?

What is the desired mission?

You like to go slow and view the world it seems... so the mission decision becomes much easier.

You can purchase a home built plane and work on it, fix it, modify it all yourself, but the yearly condition inspection must be done by the original builder or an A&P. Keep that in mind.

Older aircraft have a balance on controls that make flying fun! A good Champ, or a side by side Chief in good condition is not lots of $, but will be so much fun you won't believe. Probably take three of them to meet the cost of an -18. I loved the Champ, but with 430 lbs of human was not good getting off the short beaches... but that is not your mission so would fit your bill. Tube issues can be mitigated quickly with a good pre-purchase inspection from someone that knows tube and fabric.

Luscomes, any of the 11-20 piper family are fun fliers. The pacer is a tad more work on the ground, and a little more of a squirrel in the air (like the Maule) due to the short body... but not that much.

Stinsons are cool, but if you only are carrying you and the wife, how much power do you want to pay for? (another question to ask).

How much time will it be the two of you? If you are 'heavy' campers a 4 seat with the back seat out is a better idea (Cessna 170?). If you go light, a two seat bird is not bad. If you fly alone most of the time, (most of us do 90% or more of the time I bet), it really does not matter.

If you want to fly- buy a flying plane and enjoy. If you want to build, expect to be a few years out before you fly.

A budget Champ or Chief, or even a J-3 at under $30,000 to fly while you piece together a project for $50,000+ might be a good solution.

I like to fly... building is fun, but would rather fly.

(disclaimer: I do not like nose picker planes, and even if you say you are not an off airport guy we suspect you might want to show up at Johnson Creek some day and WE don't want a nose wheel showing us up;-))