Diet and Associated Health: Facts, Opinions and Somewhere In Between

Folks, I have moved this thread to Cafe Supercub.

While this thread deals with an important topic, it is also a complex one, as well, with a distinct lack of clarity in the medical literature, making drawing definitive conclusions difficult.

I would caution all to consider that there are a whole lot of opinions being thrown out here, some of which are being spun as facts. While we may feel very strongly about some of the ideas that are being discussed please take these opinions with a grain of salt (well, that depends if you feel salt is good or bad for you).

As always, please discuss questions with your personal health care provider. While there are some very interesting ideas being shared here, please be careful before you make significant changes in, for example, your diet, and please, please discuss this with your provider.

Wishing you great health!

Randy

skywagon8a said:

I saw this today Christina, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ch-salt-three-bags-crisps-health-campaigners/

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Top Scientist says all you've been told about salt is wrong

How bad is salt for you really

It's time to end the war on salt

You're turn....

Seriously though, the above study to which you linked appears to be yet another epidemiological study that confuses correlation with causation. Unfortunately, there is no paper out yet, just a press release associated with the European Society of Cardiology, which is having a big conference right now. Yes, they survey people on what they think they ate, and those people having more salt maybe had more heart attacks but also ate the salt on a lot of french fries fried up in inflammatory vegetable oil? Is it the fries, the oil or the salt? The other interesting thing is that the press release omits the absolute risk - it just cites the relative risk. Are we talking about heart attacks going from 1% to 1.5% in the studied populations? That would be a 50% increase in the relative risk... but only 0.5 percentage points of absolute risk.

Now many people around the world will act hysterically to avoid a critical electrolyte. All because the media hypes up a probably flawed study that isn't even published yet!

Listen, I have been eating a metric ton of salt for a long, long time. My blood pressure is typically on the low side of normal. My Cardiac Arterial Calcium (CAC) scan last month came back as a big, fat ZERO..... meaning NO detectable plaque in any artery!

If you are concerned about atherosclerosis, PLEASE get a CAC scan. That will tell you whether you need to worry or not, or need to take corrective action.

Met with quite a few sc'ers and old friends along the way.... great flying and friendship, as always!

S2D said:

Thanks.
off topic but did you meet up with any sc ers on your way.
update us on your trip sometime since you snuck thru incognito

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CharlieN said:

Over the last year I had been working with a "licensed dietitian" at the only Endocrinology office in the Rutland VT region. Under her guidance as well the other support from staff members they raised my body weight 10# and raised my A1C from 7.2 to 8.2, that last number was taken back in February. At that time the dietitian whom was promoting 45 to 60 grams of carbs per meal and keeping fats low, her comment to the elevated A1c was, "well that didn't work" At that time we had maxed out the visits allowed by my insurance so there has been no true change of course by the "pros" After that visit I requested a change of Endocrinologists since the one I was with was the "low man on the totem pole". He was referring to "Web MD" and the Mayo center website while I was in office. I was denied a change of Endos so I have not been back there. Clearly their guidance is frustratingly wrong.

I think back a few years ago when my GP was saying to totally cut out bread, I wish he backed up that statement with some guidance since I am now beginning to realize he was right. I just did not understand it. When I joined this forum a year ago it was for research for the plane I am building, I did not expect to get guidance about controlling a major issue of life such as Diabetes.

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I think one of the most important things to take away form these discussions is to find a Dr you trust. If you go the naturopathic way know the risks. I took care of several minor maladys the naturopathic way. the third one about killed me. Not because I didn't trust Dr's, because of our antiquated FAA medical system which I think is the biggest killer of Pilots. No one wants to go to a Dr for fear of having a disqualifying condition. My endocrinologist could only laugh and shake his head when I told him about trying to do everything naturally given my propensity to spray chemicals on every living organism. It wasn't about the chemicals, it was about the FAA.

Be careful S2D, I used to know a lot of ag pilots and ground workers in this area, all but one of them died from cancer. The one died in a plane crash (excess alcohol).

That's another area of interest, are we dying of cancer because of chemicals or because we now live long enough to get cancer or because of our higher sugar intake or ????
All my old bosses lived to be in their 90's and other pilots around here that didn't died in plane or car wrecks.

None of these pilots made it to old age, some maybe in their early 60s. The chemicals which I was aware of were Parathyon, Seven and before it was banned DDT.

S2D said:

I think one of the most important things to take away form these discussions is to find a Dr you trust.

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I have thought a lot about this. Some people have said that I am "anti-doctor", but nothing could be further from the truth... not all doctors are the same when it comes to knowledge, competence about a specific specialty, etc. I will venture that very few doctors I have come across understand the human metabolism or nutrition. And when you find one who does, you have a gem!

I once had a doctor who told me that he would put me on statins unless I cut eggs out of my diet -- he was severely metabolically damaged (obese at over 300 lbs). You think I took him seriously? Needless to say, I found another doctor. His own poor health was evidence that he didn't know what he was talking about!

I found my current general practitioner through the low carb doctor site. First time I saw him he told me that he never heard of that - and that someone must have put him on there because he treats a lot of diabetic patients. Then he went on to apologize for his moderately oversized girth (he obviously understood the credibility issue with the visible metabolic damage). However, I like him because he does not push any drugs, and is very open to strategies on how to prevent and reverse metabolic damage, not just "treat" them.

That brings up the obvious question - what kind of results are you getting from your current physician? If you have a metabolic issue, does he just prescribe drugs, saying that this is a chronic condition that can't be reversed, only "treated"? Or does he actively work with you to employ strategies and good science to reverse and cure that condition?

There are several ways to find the latter kinds of doctors. Here are a few of which I am aware:

1. Medical & scientific conferences - this way is really for nerds like me who love delving into the science of how the human body works. I found the doctor who cured my aunt's T2D, heart disease, osteopenia and fibromyalgia by watching YouTube videos of various presentations at medical conferences. His practices in Denver, where she lives. Unfortunately unless you are lucky and happen to live close to one of these docs.....
2. Low Carb Doctors website - this is a mixed bag, some are great and some are mediocre.... i.e. no quality control. Anyone can add their name. You will find both doctors that are tops in their field (fall under item #1) and also those like mine who don't know how their name got on the list!
3. Intensive Dietary Management - This is Dr. Jason Fung's remote online program to reverse metabolic issues. It doesn't replace your current doctor, but works with him and you to provide the knowledge and help to do this.
4. Virta Health - This is Drs. Steve Phinney's and Jeff Volek's startup, funded to the tune of almost $40 million in VC money. They seek to do the same thing as Dr. Fung -- work with you and your doctor to reverse T2D. It amazes me that we need so much money to learn to eat like our ancestors did before the the explosion of metabolic syndrome!
5. Undoctored - This is cardiologist Dr. William Davis' site (of Wheat Belly and Undoctored book fame) - the last thing I heard was that he was going to try to build a network of doctors who reverse metabolic syndrome and heart disease, but I don't know where he is with that.

Finally I think the #1 thing you can do for your health is learn... be a critical thinker and don't take what anyone tells you at face value -- not your doctor, not me, not anyone! It is not easy, but do your own research. And listen to what your body is telling you...

Chemicals and cancer are hard to figure. My Dad was a crop duster starting in his mid 40's until early 70's. He sprayed 245-T, Toxaphene and DDT, potent chemicals on potatoes, Lasso and many other herbicides. Got parathion on his legs when a hose popped. He even made the tomatoes in his friend's garden wilt when he walked past them from the 24-D in his jeans. He almost made 85 and died in the nursing home three years after a medium stroke----never had cancer.

Another good diet learning site, http://www.drperlmutter.com/

The info is out there, if you want it.

Nice discussion, I have been a fan of atkins since it came out. I also had many patients I placed on the medifast diet in the 80's. Joe Pulliam M.D.

I know medicine is not a perfect art.

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Seriously, I don't see how the doctors and scientics don't have this sorted yet. The different directions health books take is nothing but puzzling.

A vegan friend recently sent me a copy of 'The Starch Solution'. I haven't read it yet as I wan't there to be some professional consensis before reading more diet literature. Any comments from anyone on this approach?

A book I liked was 'Fit for Life'. About eating food in the correct combinations. Included having fruit for breakfast and nothing heavy until late morning. I find it reduces the too full feeling.

Signed:
Confused.

S2D said:

That's another area of interest, are we dying of cancer because of chemicals or because we now live long enough to get cancer or because of our higher sugar intake or ????

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I think that cancer is a myriad of things... very tough. However, researchers are making huge breakthroughs with some very nasty cancers (breast, pancreatic, lung, etc) utilizing combinations of metabolic therapies (like keto diet, exogenous ketones, hyperthermia, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, fasting, and glucose lowering drugs). Quite different from the "standard of care" which doesn't address the metabolic side at all. The before/after PET scans are simply astounding.

Dr. Jason Fung has a timely piece on cancer growth factors, which include insulin, glucose and IGF1 on his site now.

Texmex,
You are right, it is very confusing -- and IMO the science has been set back 50 years on a wild goose chase by events and politics set off by Ancel Keys. There is a long, long way to catch up, and many millions have prematurely died as a result of the bad science.

The bottom line is -- do whatever works to cure and / or prevent metabolic diseases and ailments (if that is your goal). These include but are not limited to type 2 diabetes, atheroschlerosis, fatty liver, alzheimers, obesity, even many cancers. I.e. the "diseases of civilization".

The common thread that is being discovered as the likely cause of the above is impaired energy metabolism as a result of pathological insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia.

So in choosing a diet, you need to consider your goal and how likely that diet will achieve it based upon your genetics.

Will the diet actually make your insulin resistance worse by spiking your insulin? Or will it enable your insulin resistance to heal?

I hope this helps. It would be very helpful for everyone to know their insulin status -- you can find out with a fasting insulin test or Kraft insulin assay. HbA1C is also a rough proxy, but insulin resistance might not show up there for years after you are already resistant.

As an aside, both modern, cultivated fruit and starch spike insulin quite a bit. That may be okay depending on your goals and current situation.

texmex said:

Seriously, I don't see how the doctors and scientics don't have this sorted yet. The different directions health books take is nothing but puzzling.

A vegan friend recently sent me a copy of 'The Starch Solution'. I haven't read it yet as I wan't there to be some professional consensis before reading more diet literature. Any comments from anyone on this approach?

A book I liked was 'Fit for Life'. About eating food in the correct combinations. Included having fruit for breakfast and nothing heavy until late morning. I find it reduces the too full feeling.

Signed:
Confused.

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NunavutPA-12 said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-researchers-fat-carbohydrates-the-lancet-1.4266130

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Here's a link to the actual study: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)32252-3/fulltext

Once again it comes with the usual caution that this is a questionaire-based epidemiological study in which correlation does not equal causation....

Unfortunately the full article is behind a paywall, so can't really see the details. But here is the summary of the findings:

[h=3]Findings[/h]During follow-up, we documented 5796 deaths and 4784 major cardiovascular disease events. Higher carbohydrate intake was associated with an increased risk of total mortality (highest [quintile 5] vs lowest quintile [quintile 1] category, HR 1·28 [95% CI 1·12–1·46], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]=0·0001) but not with the risk of cardiovascular disease or cardiovascular disease mortality. Intake of total fat and each type of fat was associated with lower risk of total mortality (quintile 5 vs quintile 1, total fat: HR 0·77 [95% CI 0·67–0·87], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]<0·0001; saturated fat, HR 0·86 [0·76–0·99], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]=0·0088; monounsaturated fat: HR 0·81 [0·71–0·92], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]<0·0001; and polyunsaturated fat: HR 0·80 [0·71–0·89], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]<0·0001). Higher saturated fat intake was associated with lower risk of stroke (quintile 5 vs quintile 1, HR 0·79 [95% CI 0·64–0·98], p[SUB]trend[/SUB]=0·0498). Total fat and saturated and unsaturated fats were not significantly associated with risk of myocardial infarction or cardiovascular disease mortality.

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I admit that your good health is very important, maybe the most important thing in your life,
but unfortunately a lot of us don't want to make researching medical / health issues a hobby.
Kinda like the stock market-- I don't want to make it my hobby,
I just want to make money off my investments.
Hence reading discussion threads like this,
instead of medical journals.

I fry my stuff in lard when I can get it,

NunavutPA-12 said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-researchers-fat-carbohydrates-the-lancet-1.4266130

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Yet another spin on this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...her-death-rates-major-lancet-study-finds/amp/

Low-fat diets could raise the risk of early death by almost one quarter, a major study has found.

The Lancet study of 135,000 adults found those who cut back on fats had far shorter lives than those enjoying plenty of butter, cheese and meats.
Researchers said the study was at odds with repeated health advice to cut down on fats.
Those doing so tended to eat far too much stodgy food like bread, pasta and rice, the experts said, while missing out on vital nutrients.
Participants eating the highest levels of carbohydrates – particularly refined sugars found in fizzy drinks and processed meals – faced a 28 per cent higher risk of early death.
The NHS cautions against having too much saturated fat, on the grounds it raises cholesterol levels, increasing the risk of heart disease.
But the latest research, presented at the European Society of Cardiology Congress, in Barcelona found those with low intake of saturated fat raised chances of early death by 13 per cent compared to those eating plenty.
And consuming high levels of all fats cut mortality by up to 23 per cent.

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Again -- the caution here is that 1) this is an epidemiological study relying on questions on what people ate (correlation does not equal causation and these are the worst kinds of studies), and 2) The risk reductions stated above appear to be relative risk reductions, not absolute. Unless we see a copy of the actual paper (which is behind a pay wall) we really don't know what the meaning of "far shorter lives" is...

FYI, for those interested, here is a cookbook for diabetes that was published in 1917, long before insulin and other drugs. If you take a look, these are ketogenic meals and meal plans (check out the daily macros in the last few pages, they all work out to between 73% and 77% of your daily caloric intake as fat, mostly saturated -- pure keto!).

Some ingredients listed are no longer available like the non-carb flours mentioned. The one that is still available today and used in many keto cookbooks is almond flour.

This is a keto cookbook before it was called a ketogenic diet.... as far as I know the medical community started calling it that in the early 1920s, and primarily used it to treat epilepsy, for which it is still used to this day for patients who don't respond to drugs.

It is very interesting to me that our ancestors knew the answer for diabetes... why don't we?

http://icsarchive.org/paperback/cookbooks/diabetic_cookery_1917.pdf

I have been reading up about insulin resistance and low carb/high fat data for the past decade (Gary Taubes' "Why We Get Fat" book is what got me going...and he probably published the most controversial article in the history of the New York Times). I've followed some of the recommendations to eat less carbs/starch/sugar and made good progress on the bad cholestrol front , but I am pretty thin anyways ...so it doesn't matter what I eat...I've stayed the same weight and size since high school (I'm late 30s now). One interesting thing I found is that exercise did not make a difference for me. If anything, it caused me to eat more because I was hungry all the time. I've increased my carb intake , and having a kid has made it even more difficult to stay disciplined. I've seen too many people go cold turkey when trying to change their diet and I believe that's a recipe for disaster. Just decrease your sugar intake....instead of drinking a coke a day, try it every other day...and once you master that, decrease it even further.

Christina Young said:

...here is some good background hard copy reading material for those who want to learn more.....
- The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung - I bought this book last year not because of weight loss (I have never been overweight) but to better understand insulin resistance and how insulin affects metabolism. Great book for those who do need or want to lose weight however. No matter how much you exercise, you can't outrun your hormones! ....

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JUst recently borrowed this book through the local library and have started reading it.
I'm more into novel readers than non-fiction,
but Fung writes well and it's pretty easy to read.

Might have to read "Keto Clarity" next.

Big headlines about this very topic today in New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/well/new-study-favors-fat-over-carbs.html

Here is a recent (August) entertaining and informative interview of Dr. Dominic D'Agostino by Joe Rogan, explaining what the ketogenic diet is, why and when anyone would want to do it, and the major scientific research that is currently underway with keto right now for all sorts of medical issues - everything from Alzheimers to cancer and wound healing. Dr. D'Agostino is a leading scientific researcher in both the neuroscience and cancer fields with keto. Much of his research is funded by the U.S. Navy and NASA. This interview is long (almost 3 hours!) but not boring at all... they cover lots of fascinating stuff.

For those interested in reversing diabetes and/or obesity, this is a recent paper published in the journal Diabetes & Metabolic Syndrome about a small random controlled trial (30 people) of people with metabolic syndrome. They were divided into 3 randomly assigned groups - a group put on a ketogenic diet with no exercise, a group that continued the standard American diet but added 30 min of exercise daily (3-5 days a week), and a control group that continued with the standard American diet and no exercise.

Link to actual paper: https://www.docdroid.net/AlZnmch/ketosis-as-a-regulator-of-obesity.pdf

Link to PubMed overview: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28433617

Abstract:

A worsening epidemic of diabetes and its precursor, metabolic syndrome (MetS) is engulfing America. A healthy individual, with proper glucose regulation has an ability to switch between burning fat and carbohydrates. It has been suggested that signaling errors within this homeostatic system, characterized by impaired switching of substrate oxidation from glucose to fat in response to insulin, can contribute to the etiology of metabolic syndrome and occurs before the development of type II diabetes. Glucose regulation with restored insulin sensitivity facilitated through clinically regulated, benign dietary ketosis (BDK), may significantly reduce, regulate and reverse the adverse pathologies common to MetS and obesity. The study assessed if prolonged maintenance of induced and controlled physiological, dietary ketosis, would reverse pathological processes induced by MetS including a reduction in fasting triglycerides, BMI (body mass index) and body fat mass (BFM), weight, a significant decrease and/or normalization of hemoglobin A1c (HgA1c) and an increase in resting metabolic rate (RMR) and blood ketones. A group of 30 adults, previously diagnosed with MetS by their primary care physician, were randomly prescribed to one of three groups: a sustained ketogenic diet with no exercise, standard American diet (SAD) with no exercise or SAD with 3-5 days per week of exercise (30 min.). The results demonstrated that the change over time from week 0 to week 10 was significant (p=0.001) in the ketogenic group for weight, body fat percentage, BMI, HgA1c and ketones. All variables for the ketogenic group out-performed those of the exercise and non-exercise groups, with five of the seven demonstrating statistical significance.

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I thought these were pretty striking results, given the fact that 10 weeks isn't really even enough to get fat-adapted at the mitochondrial level.

Here is an entertaining presentation to a British cardiology conference in London last week (BACPR) by engineer Ivor Cummins on the root cause of heart disease - essentially the same as diabetes (hyperinsulinemia & insulin resistance). I really think the world is beginning to wake up to the cholesterol fraud that's been pushed on people. That means there's a lot of hope, and I'm very optimistic. These things don't get corrected overnight when there's a multibillion dollar industry (statins) riding on the truth being buried. But eventually the truth does come out...

FWIW I finally finished reading "The Obesity Code" by Jason Fung MD.
He's one of those writers who never uses 3 words if 15 words will suffice.
Anyway, what I took away from reading it is:
1) reduce intake of (added) sugars
2) reduce intake of refined grains
3) moderate intake of proteins (should be 20-30% of total calories)
4) increase intake of natural fats
5) increase intake of fiber & vinegar
Also, periodic fasting is good to control insulin resistance.
He gives sample weekly schedule for 24 hours (nothing between dinner one night, and dinner the next night)
and 36 hour (nothing between dinner one night, and breakfast 2 days later) fasts.

I really like Dr. Fung's style, and enjoy his videos immensely. He always injects a healthy dose of common sense into a very entertaining and humorous delivery. My favorite quote of his is, "the human body is NOT stupid!" :lol:

FWIW, I have personally found that it is easy to get kicked out of ketosis if you eat more than a moderate amount of protein (I blood test at home all the time). 30% sounds a bit on the high side to me, I try to keep it at 20% or less. But everyone's different (and I work out regularly). Any excess protein above what the body needs for cellular repair and maintenance is "gluconeogenesized" to glucose. The only real way to know how much is "too much" is to do some blood testing and see how your body responds. Of course, you don't need to be as strict as I am about protein to realize metabolic health benefits from a high fat low carb lifestyle.

This came out yesterday from the CDC... just pathetic. Over 70% of Americans now are either overweight or obese, with 40% obese.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...c-reaches-record-high-new-report-says-n810231
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...re-fatter-ever-40-adults-now-considered-obese

It is easy to visually confirm this - just go to any public gathering, Walmart, etc. Huge, fat guts everywhere. It is very sad.

It doesn't have to be like this, and obesity is just a symptom of metabolic syndrome (perhaps more properly called insulin resistance syndrome). It is exploding our national health costs from related ailments - diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's, cancer, etc etc etc. Over 100 years ago these things were uncommon. They started a "hockey stick" rise around the 1970s & 1980s, coinciding with the introduction of the USDA food pyramid and the war on dietary fat and cholesterol.

The good news is it's real simple to fix obesity, and you don't even really have to exercise because this is primarily a hormonal problem (although it helps). Just cut out the grains (even the "heart healthy whole grains"), cut out the starches, cut out the sugars (even "natural" sugars like honey - or limit it to when you raid a beehive like our ancestors did), and especially cut out the dangerous inflammatory seed oils like canola, corn, soy, peanut, etc.

Replace all that stuff with natural saturated and monounsaturated fats for energy, like butter, cream, beef tallow, lard and olive oil. What our great grandparents ate.

I just hope that we can get this under control - otherwise this is going to bankrupt our nation. :-(

There's some fascinating new research out just last week in the journal Nature Communications about sugar and cancer. We all know about the Warburg effect, for which Otto Warburg won the Nobel Prize in Medicine in the 1930s, in which most cancers are fueled by glucose fermentation, especially aggressive, metastatic cancers. This is because of the damaged mitochondria of cancer cells – they can’t get their energy through normal respiration like healthy cells can.

This new research takes it one step further. It basically finds that a sugar, fructose-1,6-bisphospate , overstimulates Ras proteins inside the cancer cells to make the tumors more aggressive.

Here is a link to a page explaining this in layman’s terms: http://standardnews.com/suger-feeds-cancerous-tumors/

And here is a link to the actual paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-01019-z
And the .pdf version: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-01019-z.pdf

Here is a nice diagram of the glycolytic pathway showing this for us nerds:



Just one more reason to avoid sugar and things that become sugar in the body...