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Stiff Wind and a T3

On Patrol

BENEFACTOR
Wentworth NH" The WAD" NH96
Wind right down the runway at the WAD about 10 gusting to 15 MPH. I had Dan Dufault's T3 installed on the Cub . It had been a while been flying the 180 lately. Went out around the patch to slow flight and get some landings and knock off the rust. First was about 700 feet not bad with rust. Progressively slowed it up. Started using Patrick Ramano's technique nose high pumping the throttle. While getting the landings down to a consistent 300 feet what impressed me most was dropping it in from 3 feet with no bounce from the tail wheel.
Wow Dan nice job. It really is a game changer.
John
 
Wind right down the runway at the WAD about 10 gusting to 15 MPH. I had Dan Dufault's T3 installed on the Cub . It had been a while been flying the 180 lately. Went out around the patch to slow flight and get some landings and knock off the rust. First was about 700 feet not bad with rust. Progressively slowed it up. Started using Patrick Ramano's technique nose high pumping the throttle. While getting the landings down to a consistent 300 feet what impressed me most was dropping it in from 3 feet with no bounce from the tail wheel.
Wow Dan nice job. It really is a game changer.
John

With some more practice John you can drop them in from 5 or 6' like I do. :oops:

Glenn
 
brokeback.jpgDon't drop em in.
 

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I guess I will be the first to ask why drop it in from 3 ft.
Pure rust and trees on approach end. The drop was not being fast enough on pumping the throttle in ground effect. Was trying not to leave it in causing excess float. No excuses more time in the seat needed and nailing touchdown point.
 
... The drop was not being fast enough on pumping the throttle in ground effect.
John, Pumping the throttle is not good practice or technique. Your perception would tend to be opposite of what was needed due to the time elapsed between you recognizing what needs doing, your throttle hand moving forward, the engine reacting to the new setting and the airplane reacting enough to arrest the excess sink rate. A small steady amount would be more productive. Smooth and steady.
 
John, Pumping the throttle is not good practice or technique. Your perception would tend to be opposite of what was needed due to the time elapsed between you recognizing what needs doing, your throttle hand moving forward, the engine reacting to the new setting and the airplane reacting enough to arrest the excess sink rate. A small steady amount would be more productive. Smooth and steady.

Smooth and steady... that sounds like the best plan to me. pump the throttle.. sounds nuts to me! Stabilized Stabilized!
 
The method differs from ones that I was instructed in in the past. Apply throttle for a time period then remove was previous instruction. This method I was now trying was shorter bursts possibly more throttle applied but not left in.
it is different and requires an arresting blast to flair with. This method was instructed with little to no power required from abeam to final if done correctly.
john
 
The method differs from ones that I was instructed in in the past. Apply throttle for a time period then remove was previous instruction. This method I was now trying was shorter bursts possibly more throttle applied but not left in.
it is different and requires an arresting blast to flair with. This method was instructed with little to no power required from abeam to final if done correctly.
john
John,
I happen to be of the camp that the throttle is at idle on final with speed controlled by the elevators. Alternatively one may use some power with speed controlled by the elevators. In either case the throttle should be one setting. In the first example the glide path will be steeper with a higher airspeed with touchdown closer to the obstacle due to the angle of descent. The higher speed will be used to arrest the sink rate. In the second example when the throttle is closed, the sink rate will increase since the nose is already in the flared position. In both cases the ground roll will be about the same.
 
John,
I happen to be of the camp that the throttle is at idle on final with speed controlled by the elevators. Alternatively one may use some power with speed controlled by the elevators. In either case the throttle should be one setting. In the first example the glide path will be steeper with a higher airspeed with touchdown closer to the obstacle due to the angle of descent. The higher speed will be used to arrest the sink rate. In the second example when the throttle is closed, the sink rate will increase since the nose is already in the flared position. In both cases the ground roll will be about the same.

To be clear the throttle is added on final for altitude adjustment as well as in ground effect. Ground roll with removing flaps and braking has been in the 100 foot range when done correctly. Little to no energy at the flare on.
John
 
You can not land short, tight, rough and unimproved places by just using the elevator. I use the throttle in this case all the way to touch down, I control my landing spot with power adjustments. Sometimes I even pump the throttle. IT WORKS! Come fly with me with your own airplane and follow me around and see if you can use just the elevator. You have to know how to use power to work off airport.

Greg
 
You can not land short, tight, rough and unimproved places by just using the elevator. I use the throttle in this case all the way to touch down, I control my landing spot with power adjustments. Sometimes I even pump the throttle. IT WORKS! Come fly with me with your own airplane and follow me around and see if you can use just the elevator. You have to know how to use power to work off airport.

Greg

The same method was instructed you describe here. The big thing Patrick tried to get through my thick head was spot landing with little energy remaining. We did the training in my 180 and I am attempting to convert it to the SC. With a 10 MPH and more practice last evenings the landings were respectable by getting the flaps dumped and braking . I was hitting my spot and cranked back to less than 150 feet. My goal over the next month is less than 100 feet but the spot made every time.
By the way Patrick had me get the 180 down on spot and stopped in 200 or less last year.
John
 
The same method was instructed you describe here. The big thing Patrick tried to get through my thick head was spot landing with little energy remaining. We did the training in my 180 and I am attempting to convert it to the SC. With a 10 MPH and more practice last evenings the landings were respectable by getting the flaps dumped and braking . I was hitting my spot and cranked back to less than 150 feet. My goal over the next month is less than 100 feet but the spot made every time.
By the way Patrick had me get the 180 down on spot and stopped in 200 or less last year.
John

No fair practicing before New Holstein!
 
I shall chime in here John, though I think I would be lucky to get Miss Daisy down in 1,000'...

Your point is correct; landing with the least amount of energy on your spot is very important.

What is difficult in web discussions is that we loose the nuances with limited words.

Not only is it important to have low energy on the spot, but you must be in complete control! Meaning if you have reduced energy and hit your spot coming strait down hard, causing a bounce that allows the plane to slew sideways you will not be effective off airport. However, if your energy gives you wheels on in a perfect desired line where you can lift the tail to kill lift, and use brakes, your distance will be short.

Not everything is about distance, lots is about control and keeping control as you bounce down a strip with tires getting different drag rates causing the plane to turn side to side.

As you talk about blasting throttle, many of us hear the student pilot jab a throttle to full to pull out of his tiedown... is that what you mean? Or are you talking about a smooth application of 1,200 rpms to give your tail authority to round out your landing?

I am a big advocate to come in with around 1,100 rpms to assist with rudder and elevator authority. The Maule seems to like power off and fall out of the sky, arrest sink just off the ground and plop. The cub was not so much.

By carrying that 1,100 (varies with plane) through the roundout and closing the throttle as your nose hits the landing attitude, (perfect timing for this discussion), you should be able to have very little energy with full control. The problem with a 'blast' is that you are introducing a quick change in the profile, which requires a much higher skill/currency to make work correctly.

Don't let us beginners bother you, but consider the less changes the better, and 1,000 rpms on a climb prop is quite a bit of thrust!

Have lots of fun, then bring MD up here and we will go exploring
 
Not everything is about distance,

So were NOT whipping out the tape measures...??

--P.S. George, I'm just a few minutes from bugging out of town for a few days so if you hit me with a smart a** response and I don't reply, I'm not offended, I'm simply not here. Of course that argument has been made before.
 
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This picture has given me a GREAT idea...
Everybody says the '12 needs more incidence right? ... ADJUSTABLE UPPER LONGERONS !! All you'd have to do is cover the empenage with Spandex to prevent wrinkles. Sure there are a few bugs to work out like control cable tension but I'm sure Mike could figure something out.
 
This picture has given me a GREAT idea...
Everybody says the '12 needs more incidence right? ... ADJUSTABLE UPPER LONGERONS !! All you'd have to do is cover the empenage with Spandex to prevent wrinkles. Sure there are a few bugs to work out like control cable tension but I'm sure Mike could figure something out.

sure :)
whats the goal lines?
 
.Mike could figure something out.

not sure i understand the reason/need yet... but the solution is strait forward
  • pivot point like dual swing arm
  • cables(elevator & rudder, trim) must have the peak of their pulleys/cable at center line of pivot point
  • probably a couple extra pulleys to line cables back up where they originally were heading... or reweld elevator horns to align with new cable route.

so for positioning bend would this need to be inflight adjustable? or just a ground adjustable(simple) thing...????
 
In flight adjustable. Make the tail out of whatever my Sage fly rod is made from. Add a giant jack screw and another window crank up front, run the cables, viola! Flexi Tail!

Someone else can try it first...
 
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