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Thread: Lessons Learned at the Talkeetna Fly In - A Bit Too Slow

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    SJ's Avatar
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    Lessons Learned at the Talkeetna Fly In - A Bit Too Slow



    Good work trying to turn a bad situation into a good lesson for the rest of us.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Who supplied the analysis?
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

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    Scouter's Avatar
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    Cant believe how strong that gear must be to take that load. Are those 31s or 35s?

    Jim
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    G44's Avatar
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    If I recall correctly, didn't he do the same thing in Valdez but not as high when it started to go. Maybe this airplane, maybe a different one.
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    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
    Cant believe how strong that gear must be to take that load. Are those 31s or 35s?

    Jim
    35's. I heard it dinged both wings, bent the tail post and both axles. Not much damage considering.


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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Here is my analysis of the lesson learned.

    When you fly an airlplane on the ragged edge of control that close to the ground you have no room to recover. When that wing stalled, God could not have saved him. Nothing he did or could have done with the controls would have altered the outcome.

    IMHO
    YMMV
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Here is my analysis of the lesson learned.

    When you fly an airlplane on the ragged edge of control that close to the ground you have no room to recover. When that wing stalled, God could not have saved him. Nothing he did or could have done with the controls would have altered the outcome.

    IMHO
    YMMV
    Well I suppose he could have hit the ground wings level for style points, other than that, tough deal for a very talented stick! Maybe an altitude minimum for the future.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Sometimes we all run a little short on talent.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Looks like he elevated himself out of ground effect? I used to hop around with an old WWII pilot who flew more planes then I have ever seen. We would take my 11 and go all over, we would switch seats every stop. When I was in the front and used aileron after coming over the fence he would wack the back of my head with the edge of the paint stick fuel gauge and scream "RUDDER ", "lift the wing with rudder when going this slow, the rudder is your first and last friend this plane will give you "
    I notice in the video the rudder never moves.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Without sufficient lift at some point somethings got to correct for prop torque and airframe roll opposite its rotation. Might he have been holding a slight aileron against that?

    So sad to see and worse yet to now to fix.

    Gary

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    He was working the rudder pretty good even into the stall, hard to see from camera angle but if you look close you will see it. When wing drops that hard it is difficult not to try picking it up with the stick. Life on the edge Stuff HAPPENS.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 05-22-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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    spinner2's Avatar
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    Sad to see. Hope the repairs go smooth. It looks like It could have been much worse.

    Rudder is your friend. I recall hitting a wind shear at tree top level in the wintertime on skis in my Cub. My right wing suddenly dropped and the nose pitched down. I was staring at trees and snow coming at me - way too close. I thought I'd seen the end of me. I stomped in full opposite rudder and full throttle. That straightened things out and I was then aligned with the strip and just above the snow. As quickly as the situation turned ugly it now looked pretty good. I pulled the throttle back and landed. This was at Fish Lake Idaho in late winter. Not a good place or time to have trouble.

    Last year after the trade show I drove to Talkeetna and took a Beaver flight up to McKinnely. We landed on the glacier and I was in the right front seat coming back. We entered a right downwind for a landing to the south. A yellow Pacer cut in front of us as we turned base leg. The pilot couldn't see it from her side and as we turned final the Pacer touched down and immediately ground looped doing a complete 360. It taxied back onto the runway pushed in full throttle and took off without checking for damage or saying a word on the radio. We offset from the runway centerline and did a go around! And all of this took place right in front of the FSS station.
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    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Well at least he didn't get a prop strike.
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    PerryB's Avatar
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    About that commentary, "The headwind subsided". That couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with it, because that's the foundation of the downwind turn peril and we've all heard ad-nauseum that no such phenomena exists. Free moving airstream etc... Once again inertia is the wildcard that those who haven't experienced it cannot understand. If not for the properties of inertia, the aircraft could immediately accelerate to maintain a constant airspeed, but obviously it can't so it flopped out of the sky. Just like when a last minute gust lofts you back into the air and then drops you if you don't immediately push it over to reclaim your energy. But again, this must all be imagined since it certainly can't/doesn't exist in our free airstream...

    Okay, back to the immediate subject. No I didn't see any significant rudder either, but I do agree it would be hard not to instinctively push the stick over.

    --P.S. A GoFundMe page. Seriously??? He prangs his plane showing off and then passes the hat to fix it! Talented stick or not, that's pretty low rent.
    Last edited by PerryB; 05-22-2017 at 10:46 PM.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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    He did not set the GoFundMe page up. That was done by other people just trying to help him out.
    DENNY
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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    He did not set the GoFundMe page up. That was done by other people just trying to help him out.
    DENNY
    If that's the case then I apologize for the disparaging remark. Still, that page needs to come down. GoFundMe is for widows, orphans and cancer victims. Not well heeled sportsmen who break their toys.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    If that's the case then I apologize for the disparaging remark. Still, that page needs to come down. GoFundMe is for widows, orphans and cancer victims. Not well heeled sportsmen who break their toys.
    Isn't that what insurance is for?
    Last edited by JimParker256; 05-23-2017 at 09:54 AM.
    Jim Parker
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  18. #18
    SpainCub's Avatar
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    At 0:55 through 1:05, there is no rudder input that I could see. This goes back to the moose stall, aileron input on a drop wing, accelerates the drop of the wing, downward motion of the aileron generates drag on the down wing and upward motion of the upward wing release draw wile generating a low energy vortex at the tip, increasing lift at the wing tip...

    Did flight training on an acrobatic airplane, and even knowing that I had to input rudder, it took me about 5 tries to remove the instinctive visual input of aileron... the gnomonic I use to remember this is, when near the ground, use your feet. On most days doing traffics, I still practice on approach to correct with rudder only.

    Now, could he have saved it, it's hard to know at these speeds and altitudes; but it's always a loosing bet to introduce aileron control.

    It's hard to see this happen... I'm very sorry for this event.

  19. #19
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    His friends set up the GoFundMe page because they wanted to help him out with the repairs. If you don't agree with it don't contribute. I thought it was pretty nice gesture on his friends part. I've bent stuff and cost me lots of time and money, less bold because of it.
    Steve Pierce

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    Low level "slow speed" competition? What did they think would happen? Tom's both unfortunate and lucky. Another 50' downfield and the observer would have been in real trouble.
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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Glad he wasn't another 25-50 feet higher. He probably would not be here with us today.

    2 years ago I did the post cleanup after a friend of mine augured in. I coordinated moving the blood splattered airplane, dealt with the faa, helped out the family, and visited my friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death. Kudos to cubcrafters for building the part 23 certified top cub, he would not be alive in a standard super cub.

    Tim
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    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Low level "slow speed" competition? What did they think would happen? Tom's both unfortunate and lucky. Another 50' downfield and the observer would have been in real trouble.
    X2,

    These airplanes with slats and other devices that allow such high angles of attack and the owners who drag them in at these attitudes are asking for trouble eventually in my opinion. If they would fly these airplanes where you can see where you are going it is no doubt a safety mod that can save lives but when you start to fly an airplane like this one on the edge it is going to bit you when you are that close to the ground. There was video of one of the guys at the stol comp in Valdez this year that did the same thing landing and dang near got the right wing tip when it stopped flying. Lucky for him he was almost on the ground when it happened because the ground crew marking the distance might have been in his path.

    I would never feel comfortable flying an airplane at that high of an attack angle, it is just not natural for me, everything I have taught myself about flying slow tells my brain this angle is not right.

    This person has learned a good/hard lesson without dying, it is only money and time at this point.

    As most know slats allow for much higher angles of attack but not a great tool for landing in marginal places because you can't see where you are going but here is something that does allow you to fly slower and see better over the nose. PSTOL's double slotted flaps. These combined with the slat are a good tool used to fly slower for the right reason and give a huge safety margin over non equipped.
    Greg
    Last edited by Mauleguy; 05-23-2017 at 09:53 AM. Reason: addition
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    His friends set up the GoFundMe page because they wanted to help him out with the repairs. If you don't agree with it don't contribute. I thought it was pretty nice gesture on his friends part. I've bent stuff and cost me lots of time and money, less bold because of it.
    Well said.

    I don't know how to determine if one is 'well heeled', makes lifestyle choices, is broke but budgets...

    Everyone needs a hand now and then. If others want to facilitate it, let them. Maybe it is not for the receiver, but the giver. There are widows and orphans, of which I am the latter, that do not need the assistance as much as some that seem well off. Even Sam Walton needed a hand once changing a tire, the guys that helped him did not know who he was, just that an older gentleman was on the side of the road with a flat.

    We are all in this together. Thank you for the discussion, it is good to review how to keep out of trouble, many of us need that from time to time.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    While the STOL contests are fun to watch, I get concerned about the message sent to us average pilots with average airplanes. Unless you are exceptionally skilled and proficient, you should leave yourself more safety margin.
    Just my thoughts.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Fair enough George. I guess I'm just getting too old and cranky but something about seeing a GoFundMe for a busted airplane just pushes my buttons.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  26. #26

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    In all my training, it goes:

    1) push

    2) power

    3) rudder

    4) roll

    5) climb

    Lots of discussion of number three, not so much of one and two.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    No worries Perry, we all get cranky at times!

    After watching a couple more times and thinking about it, there is no release of the elevators.

    Without sound I can not tell what the power inputs are, but another factor to consider is when wings stall and we add power, the forces compound to the left. Did the wing stall, or was the roll initiated by power addition, then the aileron caused the stall?

    Lots of things here to consider for training and learning.

    Hope he is back in the air soon.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  28. #28
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Once that roll began, all the rudder in the world wouldn't have stopped it. One of the potential problems of working that an AOA is that when and if a wing does stall, for whatever reason, the result is apt to be pretty dramatic. I'm glad he didn't get hurt, and that the airplane wasn't damaged any worse.

    MTV
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  29. #29
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    .......GoFundMe is for widows, orphans and cancer victims.....
    I have to agree. This strikes a chord with me--
    I know a couple who recently put up a go-fund-me page to help pay for some extracurricular activity their daughter wants to do.
    I could see it if they were poor folks, but they have the money to pay for it themselves--
    they're just too cheap to do so.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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    A bit of advice if isn't obvious. If you are going to fly stol competition go out and practice real slow flight at altitude. Learn what the airplane does and feels like right before it breaks. Fly the airplane into the stall and try to recover without losing altitude, it can be done with some airplanes. The key is to learn what the airplane is telling you and react to it without having to think about it. Just watch the oil temp.
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    From MauleGuy:There was video of one of the guys at the stol comp in Valdez this year that did the same thing landing and dang near got the right wing tip when it stopped flying. Lucky for him he was almost on the ground when it happened because the ground crew marking the distance might have been in his path.

    Same plane, same pilot...

    Fortunately he was not higher, might have gone completely over.
    "Always looking up"

  32. #32
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Once that roll began, all the rudder in the world wouldn't have stopped it. One of the potential problems of working that an AOA is that when and if a wing does stall, for whatever reason, the result is apt to be pretty dramatic. I'm glad he didn't get hurt, and that the airplane wasn't damaged any worse.

    MTV
    Just SOME of the rudder in the world would have prevented it.

    Before you disagree, tell me you have flown a slatted Cub at 45 degrees AOA Mike. George? Eddie?

    i have measured it at 45 degrees. Its feet and ass coupling, no time for looking which ball to step on. Useful trick? Maybe. Fun? Unquestionably!

  33. #33
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I may never try it but it would be revealing to fly a plane @ +45 AOA in level flight. In GE or OGE would make a difference as suggested earlier. Plus 30* over normal stall AOA? Sometime during the flight the ship has to be capable of landing and that would take some exchange of AOA for speed or wing configuration to replace the lift required. It's a useful experiment nonetheless.

    Roll control for Helios was developed via both aileron and spoilers as I recall. Still they seem to unintentionally impact the earth regularly despite their shock absorbent gear.

    I hope the pilot rebuilds and continues the testing. It's an impressive airplane for which the edges of the flight envelope and control authority should be explored.

    Gary
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  35. #35
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AboveAlaska View Post
    After looking at this video it looks like power and right rudder would have saved him?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  36. #36
    Yooper Cub rotto789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AboveAlaska View Post
    Apears to be some torque influence there as well, live and learn! thanks for the video with sound, I'm taking notes!!

  37. #37
    12Geezer2's Avatar
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    Kind of brings back some words from my first instructor ("remember there are some things you just don't have to do")---so far so good---Yes, he was a Cub pilot with MUCH experience....----geezer Dan
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  38. #38
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Thats a bad day.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  39. #39
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Just SOME of the rudder in the world would have prevented it.

    Before you disagree, tell me you have flown a slatted Cub at 45 degrees AOA Mike. George? Eddie?

    i have measured it at 45 degrees. Its feet and ass coupling, no time for looking which ball to step on. Useful trick? Maybe. Fun? Unquestionably!
    45 degrees Angle of Attack, or 45 degrees deck angle? I think I recall Wayne Mackey telling me that his slatted Cub would fly at 28 Degrees AOA, which is remarkable in itself.

    My point was that he would have had to have been REALLY quick with full rudder to save that, and probably would have needed to unload the wing at the same time. And, at those speeds control surfaces don't work all that fast. And, adding lots of power is going to drive it harder to the left.

    All speculation on my part, Dave.

    MTV
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  40. #40
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    A revealing experiment to try might be to duplicate the attitude at altitude then try rudder to correct as suggested...

    Then try adding power and note any left roll enhancement due to reactive torque...

    Then try bringing in rudder and power...

    Then try fussing with the aileron to see if it has any effect good or bad...

    A professional test pilot would phrase this differently but the experiments would make for an interesting video in and out of the cockpit.

    Tufting and videoing the wing would reveal the extent of flow separation along the upper surface. I'd consider adding hinged surface spoilers to the upper wing forward of the separation and see if roll control is possible in a deep stall for that plane exclusive of rudder.

    Gary

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