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Thread: Icon A 5 Crash

  1. #1
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  2. #2
    AdirondackCub's Avatar
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    This just happen? They had one go down in the ocean in FL too a few weeks back.
    Mark Keneston
    Cub Crafters
    Northeast Reagion Sales
    Ballston Spa, NY
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  3. #3
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    That seems to be correct. 2 accidents within a month. Not good

    Quote Originally Posted by AdirondackCub View Post
    This just happen? They had one go down in the ocean in FL too a few weeks back.
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !
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  4. #4
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Some folks manage to trip over or fall off a 2x4 but that doesn't make lumber inherently dangerous but some prior training and caution are advised. ICON's website (https://iconaircraft.com) is well written and documented. Same for available transition training (https://iconaircraft.com/flight-center/#already-a-pilot). That would be an excellent idea for any new owner, especially when operating an amphibian subject to different behavior. Their AOA application is a good idea (https://iconaircraft.com/news/safety...a-development/).

    I have no idea why some folks have crashed. Maybe time will reveal their history and level of training and experience.

    Gary

  5. #5
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong I totally agree. Proper training is a must.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Some folks manage to trip over or fall off a 2x4 but that doesn't make lumber inherently dangerous but some prior training and caution are advised. ICON's website (https://iconaircraft.com) is well written and documented. Same for available transition training (https://iconaircraft.com/flight-center/#already-a-pilot). That would be an excellent idea for any new owner, especially when operating an amphibian subject to different behavior. Their AOA application is a good idea (https://iconaircraft.com/news/safety...a-development/).

    I have no idea why some folks have crashed. Maybe time will reveal their history and level of training and experience.

    Gary
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  6. #6
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wasn't suggesting the comments were inappropriate and apologies if that's what it seemed. I like the ICON concept and apparent thoroughness to their business plan. Owning one at my stage of life isn't an option but I were younger...

    Let's hope their build is as safe and fun as claimed.

    Gary
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  7. #7
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    From what I read online the people in this aircraft were employees of ICON... sad deal either way..

    Brian


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    My understanding in somewhat following Icon since the beginning is that they still have yet to deliver aircraft to actual owners. The last published pullback from production was to re-orient a lower production to bring aircraft to "company flight centers", to further promote, instruct, and possibly deliver from...

    (I could go on a lengthy opinionated discussion about their direction, published goals and marketing techniques in an aircraft that doesn't match existing performance levels, but that's a completely different topic)

    The submerged Icon in FL was quoted as being a hard landing that then submerged, and the occupants got out okay.

    This crash was their first fatal, sadly, and killed their test pilot and lead engineer since 2007, Jon Karkow, (formerly 21 years with Scaled Composites) and a new employee Cagri Sever.

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/0...ed-may-08.html
    Last edited by Farmboy; 05-09-2017 at 10:05 AM.

  9. #9
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Jon Krakow. A loss not only to family, friends and coworkers but to aviation in general. I hope they figure this one out? Would seem to be a worry, if he can be lost in the airplane anyone may be at risk............?

  10. #10
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    As they are probably not still in any testing stages they may not have had any flight recorders on board, but it would be really really helpful if they did. Tragic event no matter what. Mr. Karkow left his mark with Scaled composites, and some patents with Icon.

  11. #11
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    There's always more to it than initially reported so best to wait and see. The skills and experience of the crew, configuration and weather/water conditions, that kind of stuff.

    Still I hope they're eventually successful in producing a plane for sale.

    Gary

  12. #12
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Unfortunate and tragic for Icon and family and friends.

    to trust the news reporting is folly

    Kathryns and even Avweb cannot be relied upon for fully factual and accurate reports. A recent accident with reports by both sources were sprinkled with misinformation.
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  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    This crash was their first fatal, sadly, and killed their test pilot and lead engineer since 2007, Jon Karkow, (formerly 21 years with Scaled Composites) and a new employee Cagri Sever.
    Not pointing any fingers nor voicing an opinion. Just an observation that the company pilot and engineer were in an airplane before 9:30 in the morning when winds are light or nil, over inaccessible terrain. This sounds as though they were performing a flight test of some nature. Perhaps something at the extreme edge of the flight envelope? Sometimes during these flights bleep happens. That is the life of a test pilot. Been there, done that, survived, turned down a job offer from Piper as a flight test pilot, will not repeat.
    N1PA
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  14. #14

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    Truely a tragedy. Aside from the loss of life which must be devastating for their company, families, and friends (may they RIP), this company showed such promise to help a stagnant section of aviation. It will be very hard to recover emotionally and image wise. This is a loss in so many ways.

  15. #15
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I know the lake, I've boated it a couple times and flown its shorelines and coves many times. I think I have an idea what happened but am not going to comment beyond I don't think there was a problem with the airplane.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  17. #17
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    I saw that report from a few sources, some with additional speculation "from icon". Personally it strikes me odd/unusual, to the point of it's missing some crucial info, such as the flight data they recovered. Fingers are pointing and it smells.

  18. #18
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I heard from a friend out there last week that they had turned into a dead end cove and tried to turn around?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  19. #19
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Have a look here at the reported general area of the sad event. Little Portuguese Canyon in Lake Berryessa, CA.: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5280.../data=!3m1!1e3

    Gary

    Edit: To the immediate west of that Canyon is the channel that leads to the main lake. Surely they didn't choose the wrong route.
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-18-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  20. #20
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Someone familiar with the canyon give us an overview of the landscape? Seems about 500 feet wide at the mouth, 400/300/200 as you progress in, and 3000 feet long. What's the height from water to clear the plateau trees? It was 86 degrees - can't climb up and out?

  21. #21
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Some speculation from folks that have flown the area: https://mooneyspace.com/topic/22390-icon-a5-crash/

    Gary
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  22. #22
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I heard from a friend out there last week that they had turned into a dead end cove and tried to turn around?

    Glenn
    Yes, I think this is pretty close to what happened. They got into a cove they couldn't climb out of, and didn't recognize it until it was too narrow to turn around in.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  23. #23
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Thread drift.

    So say you make a mistake and turn into the box canyon. Too narrow to stand on a wingtip and pull it around.

    What's the option?

    With enough energy pull up and do a wingover, hope you manage it well enough to pull out before ground zero?

    No one ever makes the call to crash land intentionally straight ahead although it may be the smartest choice?


    Sent from my imitation glass cockpit using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  24. #24
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Thread drift.

    So say you make a mistake and turn into the box canyon. Too narrow to stand on a wingtip and pull it around.

    What's the option?

    With enough energy pull up and do a wingover, hope you manage it well enough to pull out before ground zero?

    No one ever makes the call to crash land intentionally straight ahead although it may be the smartest choice?


    Sent from my imitation glass cockpit using SuperCub.


    Org mobile app
    Or land on the water ahead but maybe full of rocks? Some times the simple answer isn't so simple to do when the time comes. Hindsights 20/20. RIP

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  25. #25
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    NTSB prelim: https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat...08X45426&key=1

    Low level flyby at est. 30-50' - turns up side tributary (right turn?) - engine speeds up and plane climbs (ooops wrong tributary?) - slight right then left turn (assume doing a 180?) - soon audible impact.

    What about the parachute? Maybe too low.

    All in due time after they review the onboard electronics. I hope the company recovers.

    Gary
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  26. #26
    n40ff's Avatar
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    " I hope the company recovers."


    Why not? If that's the story it wasn't the airplane's fault. Darn shame!

  27. #27
    Iflylower's Avatar
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    I heard from the news - the company evaluated the black box on the crashed aircraft and immediately "ungrounded" the entire fleet. That alone speaks volumes.


    It's hard to know it the accident plane was at 50' for 500' and in trouble. I always thing of the box chandelle with flaps and a low pivot airspeed and use all the canyon you can to one side turning towards the other.

    I wonder if it the could have flopped onto the water, stopped, plow turned back to out and taken off again. It's hard to think of everything with the walls closing in on you.

    A tragedy. An unwanted stain for Icon. Sad for everyone in that icon community. Peace to the families and friends. RIP.
    "There are three things in life that people like to stare at: a flowing stream, a crackling fire and a Zamboni clearing the ice." Charlie Brown

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  28. #28
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iflylower View Post
    I heard from the news - the company evaluated the black box on the crashed aircraft and immediately "ungrounded" the entire fleet. That alone speaks volumes.
    Unless this was an engineering prototype with some special recording equipment, "Black box"? What small airplanes have flight recorders? Is this a news media invention?
    N1PA

  29. #29
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    The info stated flight recorder. This could be nothing more than an iPad with foreflight, and the track log data from that is exceptional. I assume other software has the same.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

  30. #30
    Iflylower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Unless this was an engineering prototype with some special recording equipment, "Black box"? What small airplanes have flight recorders? Is this a news media invention?

    Its a a selling point or a detractor, but all the Icons will have black boxes and like an airliner, will know the story when something goes wrong. There was a black box on this accident and apparently, according to news sources, they know it wasn't the plane.

    i think the black box and REQUIRED company training for buying from Icon, or to the guy who buys it used from you. Maybe there are more unusual, but they've gotten attention with those stipulations.
    "There are three things in life that people like to stare at: a flowing stream, a crackling fire and a Zamboni clearing the ice." Charlie Brown

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  31. #31
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Icon reminds me of this airplane, an Osprey II. A very easy and nice airplane to fly, although a bit heavier with a max gross of 1560 lbs. I demonstrated one at Greenville Maine one year.

    N1PA

  32. #32

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    Iconn was able to get a 250lb increase over the std amphib
    lsa limit(1430lb?) by adding the usual droopy cuff LE stuff. The FAA was sooooo impressed they allowed an extra 250lbs. They got the rest of the industry seething but they got the exemption and free publicity for a supposed safety selling point. Now they have a stall/spin on their hands. If any of the target demographic (people who would otherwise be buying motorhomes and jetskiis) are still around, I'd be surprised. They are already put off by the onerous training/blackbox/transfer restrictions .(Is the requirement for a forward looking video cam feeding the box still there?) They are trying to reduce insurance costs (for the company), agonizing to watch such a big project learn the biz on the fly.
    The Iconn mgt.team is a mixture of big iron pilots and world class marketers. They said (power operated!) folding wings would be a big feature when the aircraft was first announced years ago. On an LSA. Amphibian. With car interior. Still with all the money and expertise, I had hoped against hope that somehow this project would darken the skies with LSAs, but the fundamentals aren't there. The Brazillian SeaMax is the pick of the litter, it's already possible to build a very nice LSA amphib if you don't try to load it down with things only an ADD American consumer thinks they need.
    Last edited by Skywalker; 05-22-2017 at 10:30 AM.
    What's a go-around?

  33. #33
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    The Brazillian SeaMax is the pick of the litter, it's already possible to build a very nice LSA amphib if you don't try to load it down with things only an ADD American consumer thinks they need.
    I've not compared the SeaMax to the SeaRey, but I've spent some time in a SeaRey and it's quite a nice machine. Have you compared these two?

  34. #34

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    I haven't flown any amphibs, but from years of reading articles and classifieds it seems the SeaRey is slow and heavy, the Rotax 914 turbo is just enough power, some are going to the Viking engine(Honda Fit) for more power. The SeaMax does fine with the std lsa engine, the 912 100hp.
    What's a go-around?

  35. #35
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    I haven't flown any amphibs, but from years of reading articles and classifieds it seems the SeaRey is slow and heavy, the Rotax 914 turbo is just enough power, some are going to the Viking engine(Honda Fit) for more power. The SeaMax does fine with the std lsa engine, the 912 100hp.
    If you get a chance take a ride, you will come away with a different impression. While the 914 is great for continued power at altitude, the 912 is okay. For builders the 912 with the big bore kit would be a definite consideration.
    While a few (FEW) have tried the Viking (Honda), it's not a real viable option due to a very hard resell, and lingering company and engine reliability perceptions, (real or not). I've flown the SeaRey 914 and it's a 95-110 cruise depending on power and alt, has good range and performance on/off the water. It would be my first choice in a Seaplane.
    Last edited by Farmboy; 05-22-2017 at 03:31 PM.

  36. #36

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    Yeah, Jan has a lot of detractors from his subaru days. But why would people take the chance unless they really needed more power? The published empty weight is 200 lbs more than a SeaMax. The stall is 42 vs 36 for the SeaMax. The Max is sorta new, the Rey is an ancient ultralight-derived craft. The Rey hauls 158sgft around but stalls higher than the 130sqft Max.
    Just checked out your facebook vid on landing a SeaRey on ice. Maybe those pilots in hot humid Fla. are feeling the need for more power. There's a guy on Long Island bringing SeaMaxs in from Brazil.
    ,
    What's a go-around?

  37. #37
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    The published empty weight is 200 lbs more than a SeaMax. The stall is 42 vs 36 for the SeaMax. The Max is sorta new, the Rey is an ancient ultralight-derived craft. The Rey hauls 158sgft around but stalls higher than the 130sqft Max.
    ,
    I think you're looking at numbers, when you should climb in one and go fly. Sometimes numbers are just that...ink on paper.

  38. #38

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    Thats why I mentioned LI.
    What's a go-around?

  39. #39

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    The Sea Max importer is at my airport. His personal one flys a lot. I haven't had the urge to try it yet. The water we have around here ( no Lakes, just large bays and the LI sound) are not often calm enough for regular operation of that plane.

    Rich

  40. #40
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Latest NTSB narrative 8/2017:

    https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviat...17FA101&akey=1
    https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/h...E958615A46AD23

    From another source at General Aviation News: "NTSB investigators theorize that it is likely the pilot mistakenly thought the canyon he entered was a different canyon that led to the larger, open portion of the lake.

    Additionally, it is likely that, once he realized there was no exit from the canyon, he attempted to perform a 180° left turn to exit in the direction from which he entered."

    Gary (sadly see Post #19 and others above)
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 08-12-2017 at 12:20 PM.

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