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Catto Propellers On Certified Super Cubs

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How does it stand up to water spray on a seaplane?


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I have had a 206 15 yrs with aluminum Hartzell. Water damage was Quite frequent.
I now have Carbon Cub with Catto with Nickel edge.
No Damage at all. :)
 
Craig was telling a couple of us at the trade show in ANC last weekend that they were considering this a wooden prop too!
 
I think the Cato is a great match to the 160 SC both on grass and floats. It has a braking action I have noticed that was never seen on the Borer. The cruise was a 5 mph increase. It has a whirr noise that borer does not have. I have all intentions of purchasing one once they are certified.
 
Craig was telling a couple of us at the trade show in ANC last weekend that they were considering this a wooden prop too!
BINGO ! It's about time that this approach was taken. They are wood, covered with a carbon/glass fabric. As they presently exist they are eligible for installation on Part 4a airplanes and with an approval will be eligible on Part 3 airplanes. No STC required. This has been my approach in attempting to convince my FSDO. As usual they are very slow in reacting beyond the initial communication. Now that the ANC FAA is on it, I expect positive results.
 
Did anyone listen to the webinair that the FAA gave Tuesday evening? I missed it but have a call into the Anchorage ACO to get details on what was discussed.

FAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
You have registered for the following event:
"Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork"
Topic: Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork
On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 18:30
Location:




Select Number:
AL0175664
Directions:

Please register for Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork on May 9, 2017 6:30 PM AKDT at:

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/2288488699643294977


Description:

The Fairbanks FAA Safety Team in conjunction with the Anchorage Aircraft Certification Office will be hosting a safety seminar to discuss aircraft maintenance and related paperwork issues concerning Super Cubs and other small aircraft. This seminar was created to clear up any perceived misunderstanding of what type of parts can and cannot be installed on a type certificated aircraft and what paperwork is needed to be completed.
The following topics will be covered and discussed:

  1. FAR 43.9 and 43.11 logbook entries
  2. Supplemental type certificates
  3. Suspected unapproved parts
  4. CAR 3, CAR 4 and CAR4a aircraft
  5. The process of installing accessories or parts on aircraft that are not certificated (Propellers)


To view further details and registration information for this event, click here.
The FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) is committed to providing equal access to this meeting/event for all participants. If you need alternative formats or services because of a disability, please communicate your request as soon as possible with the person in the "Contact Information" area of the meeting/event notice. Note that two weeks is usually required to arrange services.
The following credit(s) are available for the WINGS/AMT Programs:
AMT: 1.00

Click here to view the WINGS help page

We look forward to your participation in this safety program.
Invite a fellow pilot to the next WINGS Safety Seminar in your area.
 
BINGO ! It's about time that this approach was taken. They are wood, covered with a carbon/glass fabric. As they presently exist they are eligible for installation on Part 4a airplanes and with an approval will be eligible on Part 3 airplanes. No STC required. This has been my approach in attempting to convince my FSDO. As usual they are very slow in reacting beyond the initial communication. Now that the ANC FAA is on it, I expect positive results.

But per CAR 4.61 for all but LIGHT aircraft (less than 1000 lb gross weight) the prop needs to be APPROVED per CAR 14 (predecessor of 14 CFR Part 35), so you still need a TC'd prop, or a prop approved on an STC for that aircraft.


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What about a 180hp 0360 pen yan stc. Calls for McCauley 82/42 or sensenich. Would the Catto stc cover those or is that another whole can of worms


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Whole other can of worms. Note that all STCs have a statement that the installer has to determine the interrelationship of multiple STCs. If you have limitations that conflict between two or more STCs, you either can't have them both installed simultaneously, or you need an additional approval (field approval, 8110-3, or anotherSTC) that allows a deviation from the limitations of one of the installed STCs so they can be installed together.


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But per CAR 4.61 for all but LIGHT aircraft (less than 1000 lb gross weight) the prop needs to be APPROVED per CAR 14 (predecessor of 14 CFR Part 35), so you still need a TC'd prop, or a prop approved on an STC for that aircraft.

The J-3, J-4 and the American Champion 7 series are all certificated under Part 4a, not Part 4. The following is Part 4a.597. It is very clear that wood propellers need not be certified. There is no mention of Light aircraft being less than 1000 lb.

§ 4a.597 Propellers. Propellers shall be of a type and design which has been certificated as airworthy in accordance with the requirements of Part 14 of this subchapter or shall have been approved as airworthy in accordance with previous regulations, except that wood propellers of a conventional type for use in light airplanes need not be certificated. In certain cases maximum engine bore limitations are also assigned to propellers. Propellers may be used on any engine provided that the certified power ratings,speed ratings, and bore of the engine are not in excess of the limitations of the propeller as certificated, and further provided that the vibration characteristics of the combination are satisfactory to the Administrator.
 
The J-3, J-4 and the American Champion 7 series are all certificated under Part 4a, not Part 4. The following is Part 4a.597. It is very clear that wood propellers need not be certified. There is no mention of Light aircraft being less than 1000 lb.

§ 4a.597 Propellers. Propellers shall be of a type and design which has been certificated as airworthy in accordance with the requirements of Part 14 of this subchapter or shall have been approved as airworthy in accordance with previous regulations, except that wood propellers of a conventional type for use in light airplanes need not be certificated. In certain cases maximum engine bore limitations are also assigned to propellers. Propellers may be used on any engine provided that the certified power ratings,speed ratings, and bore of the engine are not in excess of the limitations of the propeller as certificated, and further provided that the vibration characteristics of the combination are satisfactory to the Administrator.

4a is a rewrite of 4. If you follow back, 4a.597 was 4a.61, and before that it was 4.61. Unfortunately in 4a they dropped the definition of "light aircraft" from 4a.01 that was in the earlier versions of 4. That definition appears in the May 1938 version of 4.01, and it is an airplane with a gross weight less than 1000 lbs, and a wing loading less than 6 lbs per sq ft. That is the only place I've been able to find that definition.


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This is on page 8 of TC 691. Certification Basis Type Certificate No. 691 (CAR 4a).
This is on page 2 of TC703 Certification BasisType Certificate No. 703 (CAR 4a)
This is on page 17 of TC A-759 Certification Basis 1) Part 4(a) of the Civil Air Regulations effective as amended to April 7, 1950,except paragraph 4a.532(m) (for all models except 7GCBA).

It matters not if 4a was a rewrite of 4. What is written in 4a is applicable. I have not been able to locate a copy of Part 4. I do have a copy of 4a.
 
If nobody has been busted running one on a certified cub, pretty much everybody has one or knows of someone using them, they are a modified wooden propeller technically legal in most mechanics eyes, why is there such a big hipe to get them legal anymore? Pay more for what most people are already using.
 
They aren't technically legal except on a handful of airplanes that say a wood prop of certain length and static rpm per the TCDS. Why? I don't want to be the guy the feds or the insurance company make an example of. I have seen what lengths the feds will go when theyou want to for whatever reason. Doesn't cost them a dime but they can sure f up your word for years.
 
And then your lawyer can f up your world for years paying for him.


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You can find CAR 4 and most other old regulations on the FAA regulatory guidance library.

http://rgl.faa.gov
Couldn't find it last night, here it is. I agree with what you said except that the planes which I listed specifically state that they have been approved under 4a. So 4a applies not 04. When they did the rewrite they must have realized that the 1000 pound limit wasn't important or was an arbitrarily low number. It would be interesting to actually know what their thinking was at the time.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgccab.nsf/0/5ff8a7dbdaf904ef86257b2c0060a953/$FILE/CAR_4_1937.pdf
 
Couldn't find it last night, here it is. I agree with what you said except that the planes which I listed specifically state that they have been approved under 4a. So 4a applies not 04. When they did the rewrite they must have realized that the 1000 pound limit wasn't important or was an arbitrarily low number. It would be interesting to actually know what their thinking was at the time.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgccab.nsf/0/5ff8a7dbdaf904ef86257b2c0060a953/$FILE/CAR_4_1937.pdf

Actually if you go back to the 38 version of CAR 4, they came up with the "light airplane" so you could certify one without having a certified engine or propeller. Later versions revised 4.60 to remove the option of not having a certified engine, but for whatever reason the left the term "light airplane" in 4.61 and subsequent rule changes as it relates to propellers. Everyone needs to do what they think best, but without some certification basis for a Cato, I wouldn't sign an annual on an airplane with one installed, and I wouldn't do a field approval or engineering approval to install one until it has a TC.


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Anyone running a Catto 84x36 on a 150 hp 0-320 that can give me a general idea what to expect as far as cruise speed, static rpm? Anyone trimming/using their stock spinner?
 
Anyone running a Catto 84x36 on a 150 hp 0-320 that can give me a general idea what to expect as far as cruise speed, static rpm? Anyone trimming/using their stock spinner?

Whats the matter, the " old man " been spankin your short game lately :lol:

Glenn
 
Anyone running a Catto 84x36 on a 150 hp 0-320 that can give me a general idea what to expect as far as cruise speed, static rpm? Anyone trimming/using their stock spinner?
The stock spinner fits fine, actually a lot of clearance around the blades.
 
If nobody has been busted running one on a certified cub, pretty much everybody has one or knows of someone using them, they are a modified wooden propeller technically legal in most mechanics eyes, why is there such a big hipe to get them legal anymore? Pay more for what most people are already using.

This is fifth hand info, take it with a grain of salt: A T-cart got tagged in Valdez for his. It was said it was a "fix it ticket." Admittedly I am not versed in the ticketing/fine/grounding terminology.
 
I got to see the ticket first hand, it really happened!! stated that a Catto in a composite prop and not a wood prop. totally winnable but at what cost????
 
If the data plate said what it really is "Wood covered with Carbon composite" there should have been no issue on a 4a airplane. Except that the T-cart is certified under part 04. "Certification Basis Part 04 of the Civil Air Regulations effective as amended to May 1, 1938. TypeCertificate No. 696 issued." Part 04 is the one where there is a 1000 lb gross weight limit for non certified wood props. Unfortunately on the T-cart the ticket was valid.

cb74a68d9051b42ebda9420cb2b7fca8.jpg
 
If the data plate said what it really is "Wood covered with Carbon composite" there should have been no issue on a 4a airplane. Except that the T-cart is certified under part 04. "Certification Basis Part 04 of the Civil Air Regulations effective as amended to May 1, 1938. TypeCertificate No. 696 issued." Part 04 is the one where there is a 1000 lb gross weight limit for non certified wood props. Unfortunately on the T-cart the ticket was valid.

cb74a68d9051b42ebda9420cb2b7fca8.jpg

That is a good picture taken in my hanger. I know where that came from. 8)
 
I got to see the ticket first hand, it really happened!! stated that a Catto in a composite prop and not a wood prop. totally winnable but at what cost????

That is funny. The Anchorage Aircraft Certification Office doesn't see it that way nor does the Seattle FSDO.
 
That is funny. The Anchorage Aircraft Certification Office doesn't see it that way nor does the Seattle FSDO.

Politics. My old PMI I asked once about getting help with someone on here getting a approval for something they were having trouble with and he just said don't get me involved in a debate with the other guys at the office.... I sure miss craig
 
Whats the matter, the " old man " been spankin your short game lately :lol:

Glenn

Glenn
he has fallen for Nichol at Catto. I think he spends more time talking and thinking of her
Lately than the rest of us
i know what the cash was for his airplane and mine as well. Sure has made me stop
and look at the fun he is having for a lot less dinero than dad has invested
It's about the best performing Citabria I have been around it's light with a really strong 0320
will he interesting when Nichol takes about 3 airplane units from his checkbook. Of coarse the prop is for my plane since mine is experimental

iim
 
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