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Thread: Catto Propellers On Certified Super Cubs

  1. #1
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Catto Propellers On Certified Super Cubs

    A little birdie called me from the Airman Show yesterday and told me that he overheard Craig Catto talking about the number of Catto propellers on certified airplanes in Alaska that the Aircraft Certification Office in Anchorage wanted to get them certified. Seems they have been working with Catto and hope to have an STC by October.

    To me this is huge. I operate on sand and gravel a lot and have seen what it does to my McCauley and doesn't do to the nickel leading edge of a Catto of others I fly with. I think this will be welcome news to many.
    Steve Pierce

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    180Marty's Avatar
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    Thanks, I sure hope it happens and soon!!!!

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    How much do they cost


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    AKCRUISER's Avatar
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    a little birdie told me an 84/37 (for 160 hp o-320) was $3,100, including all hardware - delivered to the show

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just know that a pre-STC built propeller will not be certified.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Just know that a pre-STC built propeller will not be certified.
    Are they different in some way?

    Are the AK FSDOs busting anyone for the Cattos on Cert Cubs?
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

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    AKCRUISER's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Eddie Foy;687814]Are they different in some way?

    Are the AK FSDOs busting anyone for the Cattos on Cert Cubs?[/

    Suspect the only difference will be an approved serial number.

    Not once that I heard of.


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    WanaBNACub's Avatar
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    I heard the same thing and am very much looking forward to it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Just know that a pre-STC built propeller will not be certified.
    The pre STC prop does not have "FAA oversight" but according to Catto it is identical.

    My question..

    If determined to be identical..will our FSDO's be likely to give a field approval on prior serial numbers....?

    The last contact I had with Craig Catto, in Feb. he said they were not pursuing a STC any longer but were going the field approval route with engineering data.

    Hope the little birdie is right!!
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynlow View Post
    The pre STC prop does not have "FAA oversight" but according to Catto it is identical.

    My question..

    If determined to be identical..will our FSDO's be likely to give a field approval on prior serial numbers....?
    There will be markings on the data plate which indicates approval. The prior data plates will not have these markings.
    N1PA
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  11. #11
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynlow View Post
    The pre STC prop does not have "FAA oversight" but according to Catto it is identical.

    My question..

    If determined to be identical..will our FSDO's be likely to give a field approval on prior serial numbers....?

    The last contact I had with Craig Catto, in Feb. he said they were not pursuing a STC any longer but were going the field approval route with engineering data.

    Hope the little birdie is right!!
    There are so many different designs I have seen over the years I am not sure how that would work.
    Steve Pierce

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    Very good news. Not a done deal but great news. I asked craig about any impact the Part 23 rewrite might have earlier this year and he discounted it butperhaps we are seeing a more reasonable attitude from the FAA now??? Lets keep our fingers crossed
    Hello Steve,
    With the new re-write of the FAR23 it will make it possible. And we have a letter from the FAA stating so. And how we will do it. If we can keep things going on a fast pace, we should be able to do it by the third quarter of this year. We will also have to get the facilities cerfified, PMA to make the STC. But yes there is light at the end of the tunnel.
    The FAA is willing to consider the entire family of our supercub props to be considered in pretty much one STC.
    With the re-write that takes effect in August, it will be possible.
    Really good news.
    Craig
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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    I spoke to Craig at the trade show and he thought it realistic for them to have the STC completed about one year from now.

    Randy

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    aviationinfo's Avatar
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    Only Super Cubs? He was working on PA-12's at one time as well.
    Aviationinfo

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aviationinfo View Post
    Only Super Cubs? He was working on PA-12's at one time as well.
    From what flynlow posted they are seeking for the entire Super Cub family. I take that to mean PA12 and 14 as well. Hopefully anyway.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    From what flynlow posted they are seeking for the entire Super Cub family. I take that to mean PA12 and 14 as well. Hopefully anyway.
    But not PA22/20 .. darn
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  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    If they can get it on all of these I don't know why it couldn't happen on the Short Wings as well.
    Steve Pierce

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    Once they have an "approved propeller" on one model, even if they don't go for an STC, a sympathetic inspector could do a field approval. An alternative would be a DAR field approval or a DER approval on an 8110-3.


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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Before changing I would ask for real demonstrated benefits over existing propellers. What are they? Static pull, climb, cruise for example? How much is gain and how much is hope? I'd like to see a comparison before getting all moist and anxious.

    Gary

  20. #20
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Before changing I would ask for real demonstrated benefits over existing propellers. What are they? Static pull, climb, cruise for example? How much is gain and how much is hope? I'd like to see a comparison before getting all moist and anxious.

    Gary
    The ones I have seen were quicker off the ground, faster in cruise, lighter weight and the leading edge is about an 80 Rockwell hardness compared to about 7 on my McCauley, if you operate on any sand or gravel this is huge by itself. Plus if you have a prop strike the crank isn't getting near the forces applied to it as a metal prop. Win, Win, Win in my book.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The ones I have seen were quicker off the ground, faster in cruise, lighter weight and the leading edge is about an 80 Rockwell hardness compared to about 7 on my McCauley, if you operate on any sand or gravel this is huge by itself. Plus if you have a prop strike the crank isn't getting near the forces applied to it as a metal prop. Win, Win, Win in my book.
    How does it stand up to water spray on a seaplane?


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  22. #22
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Good positive points Steve on durability and minimizing engine damage. Still some real time data on performance would be good to share. That's probably available and maybe offered elsewhere or will be as part of the certification. I'm not suggesting the benefits are hype but would like to see them rather than feel them.

    Gary

  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Good positive points Steve on durability and minimizing engine damage. Still some real time data on performance would be good to share. That's probably available and maybe offered elsewhere or will be as part of the certification. I'm not suggesting the benefits are hype but would like to see them rather than feel them.

    Gary
    I think the number of Uncertified Catto props on certified airplanes are a pretty good indication. Everything I posted was from owners who have used both 1A175, 1A200, Sensenich 74DM and the Cattos. Have not heard one person complain about a Catto. Their only complaint is that they have to remove them for annual inspections. Guess that is why the FAA decided to step up and get this done.
    Steve Pierce

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  24. #24
    C130jake's Avatar
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    My 80-54 NLE weighs about 12 lbs. that should help the nose heavy 150hp cubs.

    Jake

  25. #25
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Sounds like there may be a bunch of used Borers out there when this comes to pass.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

  26. #26
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Sounds like there may be a bunch of used Borers out there when this comes to pass.
    Shhh, I think your right.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  27. #27
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    How does it stand up to water spray on a seaplane?


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    I would think better then Alum. I know that Joe turned one into a reaper one day in 5' tall swamp grass and returned with a bale or two on his landing gear and wing roots and no damage other then an ugly green color to the Catto

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  28. #28
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's a good place to start a pull documentation: http://www.customaircraftak.com/engine-testing.html Richard would know what to do.

    ROC and cruise could follow. That might seal the deal for some.

    Gary

  29. #29
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I would think better then Alum. I know that Joe turned one into a reaper one day in 5' tall swamp grass and returned with a bale or two on his landing gear and wing roots and no damage other then an ugly green color to the Catto

    Glenn
    I saw a picture of that.
    Steve Pierce

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  30. #30
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Here's a good place to start a pull documentation: http://www.customaircraftak.com/engine-testing.html

    ROC and cruise could follow. That might seal the deal for some.

    Gary
    LOL, I bet there is a huge waiting list. The more on the fence at first the better.
    Steve Pierce

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  31. #31
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I saw a picture of that.
    He's a legend with the farmers in central Pa. They want to know how he harvested so much so fast

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  32. #32
    Joseph206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    How does it stand up to water spray on a seaplane?


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    I have had a 206 15 yrs with aluminum Hartzell. Water damage was Quite frequent.
    I now have Carbon Cub with Catto with Nickel edge.
    No Damage at all.
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  33. #33
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Craig was telling a couple of us at the trade show in ANC last weekend that they were considering this a wooden prop too!
    Nicht der Ort fur mich.
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  34. #34
    Flying Miss Daisy's Avatar
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    I think the Cato is a great match to the 160 SC both on grass and floats. It has a braking action I have noticed that was never seen on the Borer. The cruise was a 5 mph increase. It has a whirr noise that borer does not have. I have all intentions of purchasing one once they are certified.
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    Craig was telling a couple of us at the trade show in ANC last weekend that they were considering this a wooden prop too!
    BINGO ! It's about time that this approach was taken. They are wood, covered with a carbon/glass fabric. As they presently exist they are eligible for installation on Part 4a airplanes and with an approval will be eligible on Part 3 airplanes. No STC required. This has been my approach in attempting to convince my FSDO. As usual they are very slow in reacting beyond the initial communication. Now that the ANC FAA is on it, I expect positive results.
    N1PA
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  36. #36
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Did anyone listen to the webinair that the FAA gave Tuesday evening? I missed it but have a call into the Anchorage ACO to get details on what was discussed.

    FAA Safety Team | Safer Skies Through Education
    You have registered for the following event:
    "Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork"
    Topic: Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork
    On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 18:30
    Location:




    Select Number:
    AL0175664
    Directions:

    Please register for Super Cubs and other small aircraft maintenance issues and paperwork on May 9, 2017 6:30 PM AKDT at:

    https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/2288488699643294977


    Description:

    The Fairbanks FAA Safety Team in conjunction with the Anchorage Aircraft Certification Office will be hosting a safety seminar to discuss aircraft maintenance and related paperwork issues concerning Super Cubs and other small aircraft. This seminar was created to clear up any perceived misunderstanding of what type of parts can and cannot be installed on a type certificated aircraft and what paperwork is needed to be completed.
    The following topics will be covered and discussed:

    1. FAR 43.9 and 43.11 logbook entries
    2. Supplemental type certificates
    3. Suspected unapproved parts
    4. CAR 3, CAR 4 and CAR4a aircraft
    5. The process of installing accessories or parts on aircraft that are not certificated (Propellers)



    To view further details and registration information for this event, click here.
    The FAA Safety Team (FAASTeam) is committed to providing equal access to this meeting/event for all participants. If you need alternative formats or services because of a disability, please communicate your request as soon as possible with the person in the "Contact Information" area of the meeting/event notice. Note that two weeks is usually required to arrange services.
    The following credit(s) are available for the WINGS/AMT Programs:
    AMT: 1.00

    Click here to view the WINGS help page

    We look forward to your participation in this safety program.
    Invite a fellow pilot to the next WINGS Safety Seminar in your area.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    BINGO ! It's about time that this approach was taken. They are wood, covered with a carbon/glass fabric. As they presently exist they are eligible for installation on Part 4a airplanes and with an approval will be eligible on Part 3 airplanes. No STC required. This has been my approach in attempting to convince my FSDO. As usual they are very slow in reacting beyond the initial communication. Now that the ANC FAA is on it, I expect positive results.
    But per CAR 4.61 for all but LIGHT aircraft (less than 1000 lb gross weight) the prop needs to be APPROVED per CAR 14 (predecessor of 14 CFR Part 35), so you still need a TC'd prop, or a prop approved on an STC for that aircraft.


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  38. #38
    SteveE's Avatar
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    What about a 180hp 0360 pen yan stc. Calls for McCauley 82/42 or sensenich. Would the Catto stc cover those or is that another whole can of worms


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    Catto Propellers On Certified Super Cubs

    Whole other can of worms. Note that all STCs have a statement that the installer has to determine the interrelationship of multiple STCs. If you have limitations that conflict between two or more STCs, you either can't have them both installed simultaneously, or you need an additional approval (field approval, 8110-3, or anotherSTC) that allows a deviation from the limitations of one of the installed STCs so they can be installed together.


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  40. #40
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I would bet they will cover the 150, 160 and 180 hp Super Cub since there are so many.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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