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Thread: Performance STOL Double Slotted Flap system now STC'd for the PA-18

  1. #161
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    They got approved on a -12?
    It’s actually a “Faust”, EXP 12.

    MTV
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  2. #162
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    Experimental

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimboflying View Post
    I will be adding them to my pa12 amphib in the next couple of days to see what effect they have on takeoff distance. I will report the findings.
    I'm eager to see what you find

    Vic

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  4. #164
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    My impression of my own flaps is the first notch is like standard flaps but subsequent notches “rotate” the nose down. Holding the flap button and moving the lever up and down between notches directly manipulates the attitude. Very interesting. My flaps are longer than most and I definitely have to slow way down to make pulling flaps practical. Above 40mph the pull effort is too high. I’m not used to these flap speeds but I expect I will be soon.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Above 40mph the pull effort is too high.
    Did you use the short version of the flap handle? I had the same issue with my long 110" standard shaped flaps. The solution was to lengthen the handle until it just cleared the bottom of the instrument panel.
    N1PA

  6. #166
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    No need for a longer handle. I need to get used to flap speeds that are slower than my traditional stall speeds. If I land with three notches of flaps at near 30 mph the tail remains very high, like cruise attitude. If I try to bring the tail down the plane will fly. I'm not used to that. And I still have another notch that I haven't landed with yet. It's no problem, just me getting acquainted with my airplane. I'm sure some of the stock Supercub-Performance Flap guys that land a little faster than others will experience the same thing.
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  7. #167
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Otters (single and twin) with a very similar double flap do the same nose down pitch with flap extension. When landing they look tail high and wheel landings are common after a noticeable pitch up just prior to touchdown. Just rode in them never flown.

    Gary

  8. #168
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    WowIMG_1465.JPG


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  9. #169
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    WowIMG_1465.JPGland trials today, maybe sea trials tomorrow.


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  10. #170

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    [QUOTE=jimboflying;721891]WowIMG_1465.JPGland trials today, maybe sea trials tomorrow.

    Hell of a rig! Guess I missed the boat on this one. Is there a link to the backstory on your plane?
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  11. #171
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    Experimental PA12 installation and test
    Initial pirep
    The experimental kit was well boxed and arrived without damage’
    The parts are all very well made and fit well.
    Installation was relatively straightforward following the instructions
    One notch of flaps significantly reduced the take off time on pavement
    With one notch of flaps it got on step quicker on floats
    Application of the full flap deflection decreased take off time off of water significantly

  12. #172

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    My cub is now on floats with the flaps too, much improved with them for sure.
    John

  13. #173
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    I´d like to share landing video:
    Installed Performance Stol flaps from Airframes Alaska
    Great Performance!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8byG8H3fkw

    PA18 150A
    Lyc O320 A2B
    Tundra tires
    Place: "citrus land" of Argentina. Entre Rios province.

    See all videos on:
    Francisco LVGBR on YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHB...1ZZ1DaCm4dMSPw

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimboflying View Post
    What the powerplant-- Warner? Continental? ??
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  15. #175
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Did you go with the short flap handle??

    Quote Originally Posted by lvgbr View Post
    I´d like to share landing video:
    Installed Performance Stol flaps from Airframes Alaska
    Great Performance!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8byG8H3fkw

    PA18 150A
    Lyc O320 A2B
    Tundra tires
    Place: "citrus land" of Argentina. Entre Rios province.

    See all videos on:
    Francisco LVGBR on YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHB...1ZZ1DaCm4dMSPw

  16. #176
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    Hermoso. Flap !!


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando SuperCub.Org

  17. #177

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    Keller flaps

    Looking for real world experience comments on Keller flaps. I’m building an experimental PA18 and considering the Keller flaps. They are offered in 2, 3 and 4 hanger versions with price ranging from $6400 to $8400 respectively. Basically, I would like to know if those folks that have flown them think they are worth having and would you do it again? Why, or why not? Also, which of the three options (2,3,4 hangers) do you have? What made you choose that option?

    Thanks for any information/insight you are able to offer.

    Mr. Ed
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  18. #178
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    Ed, I merged your post with a thread on the subject. Lots of good information.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  19. #179
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    Ed, here’s another thread to review. http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...nsion-some-how

    Mine are 112”. First notch flap speed is 60 mph. My first notch is a baby step. The second and subsequent notches require considerable effort to pull even using 40 mph as a target speed. The effect of the second and third notch is like using a lever to roll the nose down. How your cables are rigged willl determine how much actual deflection you maintain at landing speeds. Mine seem to be doing okay as I learn to slow the plane adequately. In my Cub the top pulleys are attached to the relocated upper longeron. The cable tension was great enough to flex the longeron and that contributed to the flaps “blowing back” from reduced cable tension. We added a brace leg to fix the deflection. The point of that comment is that the cable tension is high with these big flaps. How your pulleys handle it is worth consideration. My own pulleys are all braced to prevent flex and ultimately breaking the attach welds. At the end of the road? The flaps work great. With my slatted wings they allow very slow speeds at a normal approach attitude. Two thumbs up.
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  20. #180
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    Flew this one today for a couple hours.

    flaps.jpg
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  21. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    Flew this one today for a couple hours.

    flaps.jpg
    And? Thoughts? Pretty close to pulling the trigger on these flaps on my PA-18-150.
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  22. #182
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    Flew this one today for a couple hours.

    flaps.jpg
    Come on Kase, what a ya think?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  23. #183
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    Not my cub so take my pirep for what its worth. Owner is out of town for the month and gave me the keys and said try it out. At 4200 density altitude with no wind touch down was 34-35 mph on the gps carrying power. Touch down is in 3 pt attitude not the tail wheel being 2 ft lower than the mains. Wheel landings worked good at 42 mph using the gps for ground speed. Does fly slower with out as much AOA as it did before.

    Installed cost around 10k. Cost you about 2k for every 1 mph slower your going. Cub is stock except for vgs, gear and fwf. Only has 1 becker com. No thrustline, ext baggage, map pockets X bar etc. 1040 lbs empty weight on paper.
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  24. #184
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    A Pacer could use them.

    Gary

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    Not my cub so take my pirep for what its worth. Owner is out of town for the month and gave me the keys and said try it out. At 4200 density altitude with no wind touch down was 34-35 mph on the gps carrying power. Touch down is in 3 pt attitude not the tail wheel being 2 ft lower than the mains. Wheel landings worked good at 42 mph using the gps for ground speed. Does fly slower with out as much AOA as it did before.

    Installed cost around 10k. Cost you about 2k for every 1 mph slower your going. Cub is stock except for vgs, gear and fwf. Only has 1 becker com. No thrustline, ext baggage, map pockets X bar etc. 1040 lbs empty weight on paper.
    That sounds like a really sweet cub.MTV

  26. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    Not my cub so take my pirep for what its worth. Owner is out of town for the month and gave me the keys and said try it out. At 4200 density altitude with no wind touch down was 34-35 mph on the gps carrying power. Touch down is in 3 pt attitude not the tail wheel being 2 ft lower than the mains. Wheel landings worked good at 42 mph using the gps for ground speed. Does fly slower with out as much AOA as it did before.

    Installed cost around 10k. Cost you about 2k for every 1 mph slower your going. Cub is stock except for vgs, gear and fwf. Only has 1 becker com. No thrustline, ext baggage, map pockets X bar etc. 1040 lbs empty weight on paper.
    If tested near sea level the performance is much better. Great mod in my view. I like them, and my cub weighs in 1250 lb range.
    John

  27. #187
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    I found that with the shortened flap handle that last notch can be very difficult to pull above 50 -55 mph. I had a flap assist handle fabricated that greatly improves activation. I can even get them on in the 60 -62 mph range. My flaps are standard length flaps on a 1954 PA18 L21B

    IMG_7451.jpgIMG_7453.jpgFlapAssistSleve.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Ed, here’s another thread to review. http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...nsion-some-how

    Mine are 112”. First notch flap speed is 60 mph. My first notch is a baby step. The second and subsequent notches require considerable effort to pull even using 40 mph as a target speed. The effect of the second and third notch is like using a lever to roll the nose down. How your cables are rigged willl determine how much actual deflection you maintain at landing speeds. Mine seem to be doing okay as I learn to slow the plane adequately. In my Cub the top pulleys are attached to the relocated upper longeron. The cable tension was great enough to flex the longeron and that contributed to the flaps “blowing back” from reduced cable tension. We added a brace leg to fix the deflection. The point of that comment is that the cable tension is high with these big flaps. How your pulleys handle it is worth consideration. My own pulleys are all braced to prevent flex and ultimately breaking the attach welds. At the end of the road? The flaps work great. With my slatted wings they allow very slow speeds at a normal approach attitude. Two thumbs up.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  28. #188
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    I found that with the shortened flap handle that last notch can be very difficult to pull above 50 -55 mph. I had a flap assist handle fabricated that greatly improves activation. I can even get them on in the 60 -62 mph range. My flaps are standard length flaps on a 1954 PA18 L21B

    IMG_7451.jpgIMG_7453.jpgFlapAssistSleve.jpg
    if it takes more than 2 fingers under the flap handle to pull them on, you are going to fast to need to deploy them for how you are loaded, for that next notch.... is what i was taught

  29. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    A Pacer could use them.

    Gary
    Agreed! Also, has anyone used them on floats?

  30. #190
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    if it takes more than 2 fingers under the flap handle to pull them on, you are going to fast to need to deploy them for how you are loaded, for that next notch.... is what i was taught
    I agree, the shortened flap handle however makes that very difficult. Essentially by adding the sleeve, you are keeping the flap handle the original length and yet keeping it out of the way of your leg giving you full aileron deflection to left during a left crosswind landing.


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  31. #191

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    Mine was on floats this summer for a bit, the flaps are also great improvement on floats.
    John
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  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    Essentially by adding the sleeve, you are keeping the flap handle the original length and yet keeping it out of the way of your leg giving you full aileron deflection to left during a left crosswind landing.
    I must be missing something. I can not visualize how the L on the flap handle replaces the original length. Perhaps a better grip but not more length which will improve the mechanical advantage.
    N1PA
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  33. #193
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    Maybe the L rotates around the flap handle giving a four finger handlebar grip. Not clear if it would increase leverage.
    "Always looking up"
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  34. #194
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I must be missing something. I can not visualize how the L on the flap handle replaces the original length. Perhaps a better grip but not more length which will improve the mechanical advantage.
    Having taken Physics over 30 years ago, and being a medical professional not an engineer, there seems to me to be a mechanical advantage to it. The grip is definitely improved as your had runs into the seat as you pull back and loose grip without it. You push the flap button in with the thumb part of the palm of your hand not your thumb. Nothing worse than thinking you have that last notch in and then they slam shut to the first notch on short final at 40mph at 30 feet above the ground. Any engineers out there who can explain it to me if there is or is not a mechanical advantage to it?

  35. #195
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I'm usually a sucker for that, so I'll try. Mechanical advantage is simply the amount of motion for an input force divided by the amount of motion for the output force. And the forces are related reciprocally to their respective distances. In this case we're caring about the force a hand/arm assembly has to apply to the flap lever to get a desired output. If the hand arm assembly has to travel farther, the required force will be less, hence greater mechanical advantage for the flap lever. BUT, it's also necessary to consider the levers and force-producers in the hand/arm assembly. The biomechanics. That's for you medical guys!! Biomechanical effort seems to not always correlate closely to what "seems" obvious for a mechanical system. So I'd say, if it feels easier, it is - notwithstanding the specifics of the mechanical system.

    I got interested in this idea by watching the paths cattle and dogs and horses take to move through terrain. It usually isn't the shortest path, or even the least energy path (you engineers out there will recall the "least work" principle as it relates to mode of deformation). I decided that a "least effort" principle applies. Though I've been unable to define "effort" well, I think it has to do with minimizing abruptness. I've used the principle to lay out walkways by walking paths with my eyes closed. The "least effort" path is never a simple geometric - it's always a smooth curve though. Of course this is only remotely related to the flap handle question, but it suggests that the best configuration might vary from what seems obvious.
    Gordon

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  36. #196

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    I think I can explain what is going on but it well past one glass of whine so I will give it a shot. From a medical standpoint the little finger has a lot to do with grasp strength. If the seat is pushing it off the handle, that will be a issue (Orthopedic thing). You have also added a mechanical advantage by putting your wrist over the top of the handle. If the seat is pushing your hand off the flap handle then the short handle is the problem!!! BUT!!! Why do you have a short handle??? Oh ya, you want to use full stick to the left! Might want to just push with the left foot a bit more. So, if it works for you I would stick with it. For the rest, bend the flap handle as needed, or for the short handle people look at Mia Hamm in the morning(3 points for knowing what the Mia reference means).
    DENNY

  37. #197
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I think that I get it now. You physically can not move your arm back far enough to engage the last notch of flaps due to the tight space between your body and the side panel. So the L extension is really just pushing the lever further aft The force required isn't any less, you just don't have to put your arm behind your back. I assume that you push the release button with the heel of your hand rather than your thumb.
    N1PA
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  38. #198
    40m's Avatar
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    Perhaps wine would help but I think I'll stay with my overhead flap handle and risk a bump on the head
    Actually it's a fun and interesting topic.
    Thanks!

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  39. #199
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wonder if the flap handle could be curved forward or just bent some? it would be closer to the floor at the release button. That might make it easier to pull full flaps (less body twist required) and maybe less leg contact.

    Gary
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  40. #200

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    Maybe move the seat back or modify the upholstery a bit.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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