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Performance STOL Double Slotted Flap system now STC'd for the PA-18

cubdriver2 said:
Your experimental and a clever guy. I would think it would not be that difficult to copy the geometry and get some CNC shop to make all the hangers, then build the flap sections?

Glenn
Click to expand...

That is funny because Doug was measuring Paul's Otter flaps years ago.
 
I will go out of my way this flying season to keep an eye out for a Cubber with a set I can eyeball. I've seen them before up close (Joe Dory's) but wasn't looking at them with the idea of "stealing" the idea at that point. Now I am! I'm not too worried about patent infringement lawsuits, for a one off for my own personal use. My best guess is, there is a lot more going on then it would first seem, to figure out the linkage gear ratios, lever throws, and all that. One of those things that look simple, once completed, but ain't when you try to replicate it.

The patent thing: a couple I know just patented this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudikcHXkrY, the first Chinese guy that sees this will get them made for a fraction of the price and good luck on sueing him and Alibaba. The hassles they had obtaining the patent were many, like they can't sell it in California because it may be used to burn bad old charcoal, and pollute the air! More of a marketing issue there I guess, but bringing any product to any market is a huge endevour, and I imagine getting an aviation product STC 'd is even more hassle, that's why I say the price for these at AA seems real reasonable, I just wish I could simply buy a pair and bolt them on my bird, I'd be time and money ahead.
 
Here you go Mike, first thing i thought of when i seen courierguys video was you. If you could take this idea out of the airplane, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIcdU1eGjng and make it into one of those. Noone would have to bring a grill along, think of the weight it would save!! But it would have to be propane to be able to use the same bottle for preheat.
 
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With only a quick look at that seat I would be scared to to a 4G maneuver with that seat not to mention any hard landing.
 
Things I've observed about Performance STOL flaps. The STC'd ones on John Schwamm's Cub have better clearances/tolerances than my experimental version. To be fair my Backcountry's flaps use Backcountry's hangers and I can't say whether the flap bodies or the hangers are what's different. I have watched guys at Airframes working on the STC'd flaps and they were incredibly meticulous with details, but that's how Airframes rolls. John's flaps are painted and operate smoothly with consistent clearance throughout defection. Mine are painted and will require thin teflon tape to prevent the upper flap from scraping paint off the lower flap surfaces. That's common with the exp versions that I've seen on other planes, too.

Wait a few months before you try to re-invent split flaps on that Rans. Backcountry is about to fly a new flap design that may take flap performance up a notch, and by appearances it looks simpler than the split flaps.

The key to improved flap and aileron performance in the exp world is chord.

In other news, Mike's lightweight rear seat for the -12 works great. Mine wasn't identical to the one in the video but was similar. Great utility, light weight, and comfy with the Fine Line cushions installed (w/ Velcro).
 
mike mcs repair said:
patented
Click to expand...
Perhaps not: US application [FONT=&quot]US20120280089[/FONT] (inventor Doug Keller) is abandoned for failure to respond to the PTO in 2015. Does anyone know of another application or patent that applies here?

BTW, this is a very crowded field, and getting a patent issued that isn't ineffectually narrow will be difficult. Add in the low volumes, and a patent starts to look pretty cost-ineffective.
 
stewartb said:
Things I've observed about Performance STOL flaps. The STC'd ones on John Schwamm's Cub have better clearances/tolerances than my experimental version. To be fair my Backcountry's flaps use Backcountry's hangers and I can't say whether the flap bodies or the hangers are what's different. I have watched guys at Airframes working on the STC'd flaps and they were incredibly meticulous with details, but that's how Airframes rolls. John's flaps are painted and operate smoothly with consistent clearance throughout defection. Mine are painted and will require thin teflon tape to prevent the upper flap from scraping paint off the lower flap surfaces. That's common with the exp versions that I've seen on other planes, too.

Wait a few months before you try to re-invent split flaps on that Rans. Backcountry is about to fly a new flap design that may take flap performance up a notch, and by appearances it looks simpler than the split flaps.
Click to expand...

Very interesting....thanks for the tip, especially as Douglas WY. is just a few hours flight away from me (been there before) and also because company owner Bruce (I think that's his job description) Bruce also flies an S-7 for coyote hunting, an S-7 with slats no less.

I see AA does offer them for experimentals, but that is just for Cub derivitive type exp's I'm pretty sure, not just any exp. or else I'd already have some on order.
 
Here is a YouTube Pilot report on my newly installed PSTOL flaps. I like them a lot! Still learning how to use them effectivly - going to take some practice. The video is literally the first time I flew with them.

 
Jonnyo said:
Did the adverse affect of the large wing tip flat plates cause the plane to weather vane into the wind or did it cause increased drift in the direction of the wind? Thanks for your time.
Click to expand...

The plates defiantly caused drift and a little wind vane but we didn't see that much performance improvement.. we gained a lot more once we started chasing 'ground effect' and keeping the air flowing smooth across the bottom surface of the wing. We should try the bottom plates again!

Have you ever come in for what was to be that perfect (behind the curve) landing to have a wing fall as you are slowing down? That took place less and less once the air was flowing (clean) across the bottom of the wing. In dead air this configuration will allow rolling the tail wheel almost the full length of the local 6,000' runway.. it would ALWAYS fall thru before and while I don't know the real technical reason I feel its due to the gap leakage and turbulence caused by the leading edge of the flap going up behind the cove and the air rolling and piling up while waiting to flow off the back or leak thru a gap. A smooth flow of air to the ground is very uplifting :roll:
 
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SchulerJL said:
Here is a YouTube Pilot report on my newly installed PSTOL flaps. I like them a lot! Still learning how to use them effectivly - going to take some practice. The video is literally the first time I flew with them.
Click to expand...
Excellent review, Thank you.

Did you notice any change in cruise indicated airspeed? Maybe 1 or 2 mph? I'm curious whether or not a nice fairing covering those hinges would make a difference?

Just a heads up in the use of the short flap handle. My Cub has double normal length flaps. The kit came with the short flap handle. I found that on a full flap go around or full flap take off that the pressure against the flap handle catch was excessive to the point of being dangerous. It took two hands pulling on the handle to release the latch. As a result I lengthened the flap handle. It was too dangerous to attempt to climb to a safe altitude with full flaps since I had to take my hand off the stick in order to use two hands on the flap handle. It either would not accelerate or would climb at such a low speed that you could almost get out and walk. Scary at low altitude. I understand your appreciation of the short handle in the narrow body fuselage and the reasons for it.
 
Thanks for the heads up - have not tried to go around with full flaps - I will try at altitude next flight to release the flap at TOGA power. I am replacing the Rachet to see if that helps. I did not notice a change in cruise speed. It definitely glides better with 1 notch of flaps


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Thanks for taking the time to post the report. How much tension is there when you push down on the top of the trailing edge of the flaps? More or less than the original flaps? Would you bring it down to Texas and let us fly it;-)
 
Not much tension - they could easily droop in wind. That is with the stock spring. There is an option to put a heavy spring in but I went with the original as we would have had to cut another inspection hole as I understand it. I think I will however go to the Dakota spring in the future


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
It’s that last 1/2” of pull that makes it hard - just before it catches. I think the aerodynamic forces are much greater that the spring - but that is a consideration


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
What speed are you using when that last 1/2" causes you grief? What happens when you slow it down a little more?
 
At 55 mph indicated it pulls fine - at 60 its hard - moral of the story slow it more. They are more lift devices than drag devices.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
I've had short and standard flap handles and prefer the latter. I put a sleeping bag in the seat cushion to raise me and my left thigh up and had the mechanic bias the aileron control slightly right of center to gain left leg stick clearance.

If there's added ratchet tension with the new flaps keep an eye on those components where they contact and the attaching hardware for wear. Lube as required. I've had one jump from full to partial flaps on short final due to age and wear on the parts.

Gary
 
Yesterday evening - no wind - calm. I like them!
Screenshot 2018-03-16 07.22.31.jpg
 

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Here is the full video to accompany the above picture. The PA18 A ratchet gives you approximately 16, 32 and 46 degrees of Performance STOL flaps in the PA18, pulling that last notch is quite easy below the max full flap speed of 70 .... at least that's what I figure by speculating not by actually changing to a ratchet that may be grey area for approval. I doubt that the difference between 50 and 46 degrees would be evident to all but the most experianced STOL pilot. My passenger in the video is my son who is taking flying lessons toward his Private while in law school. He has flown with me quite a bit with me over the years, but has recently gotten more serious about learning to fly.


 
SchulerJL said:
Here is the full video to accompany the above picture. The PA18 A ratchet gives you approximately 16, 32 and 46 degrees of Performance STOL flaps in the PA18, pulling that last notch is quite easy below the max full flap speed of 70 .... at least that's what I figure by speculating not by actually changing to a ratchet that may be grey area for approval. I doubt that the difference between 50 and 46 degrees would be evident to all but the most experianced STOL pilot.
Click to expand...


looks like actually deployment in flight(blow back) is much less than 46...
 
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