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Thread: ADS-B What kind of whooy are we in for ?

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    ADS-B What kind of whooy are we in for ?

    I check the info here often and totally enjoy this site but really have not logged in for years. Today I read the article ' Ins and ours of ADS-B' in sport Aviation April issue. It is written by a David Hughes. I have to say this is the biggest bunch of muck in have seen in a long time. I have flown 40 years, Not sure I ever want to fly with this crud in my plane. How is anyone going to be able to figure all this out. From this article it looks to be so problematic. I spent the big bucks on a Carbon cub to have less issues with all this crap. Now lets pile some more on????
    Any info on where we will need this ?
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    akskibum's Avatar
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    Class A B C and E above 10,000' over 2500' AGL

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    Do you have a radio in that Carbon Cub? If so, why?

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akskibum View Post
    Class A B C and E above 10,000' over 2500' AGL
    Don't forget, also within the 30NM mode c veil around all 37 class B airports within the US.
    That's gonna be the deal killer for flying without ADS-B in the Seattle area, and probably most of the other 37 areas.
    Busbart1, you should be good flying out of Scappoose -- just avoid PDX's class C.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Hmmm, avoid Seattle.....throw me in that briar patch said Brer Rabbit. ��

    MTV
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    I have some empathy. We are at just over half of our 1977 GA flights, and a much larger percentage of GA is now turbine, and generally on an IFR flight plan. Is all this really necessary, and if so, should we expect a measurable decrease in midairs?

    On the other hand, if you can wait 'till June 2020 I predict a truly inexpensive, small unit that will replace your transponder. The down-side is that they will have your name, address, and the location of your children at their fingertips, every time you fly. Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025.
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  7. #7

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    Am I correct that the 2020 requirement can be met with a transponder that is ADS B out compliant with no other additional equipment?

    I also wonder, if ground based radar is going away, how does anybody (other planes and ATC) see non ADS B equipped airplanes in areas where it's not a requirement? If that's true, then it would seem the odds of a mid air get worse.

    Example: A mile west of my airport there is a Class C ring. 5 Miles east of my airport there is a Class D ring. In between I can fly my Cub without ADS B legally below 10,000 feet. Meanwhile there are corporate jets and commercial airliners going into both of those airports on a regular basis. You can bet they are a lot lower than 10,000 feet in that area.

    I guess i dont understand the whole implementation. What am I missing?

    Rich

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    ... Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025....
    To late. Already in there.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

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    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    To late. Already in there.

    Web
    That's just one of the reasons why I still drive an 85 4Runner.

    The biggest one is that it's cheap and paid off, and doesn't take away from my flying budget!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3 View Post
    Am I correct that the 2020 requirement can be met with a transponder that is ADS B out compliant with no other additional equipment?

    I also wonder, if ground based radar is going away, how does anybody (other planes and ATC) see non ADS B equipped airplanes in areas where it's not a requirement? If that's true, then it would seem the odds of a mid air get worse.

    Example: A mile west of my airport there is a Class C ring. 5 Miles east of my airport there is a Class D ring. In between I can fly my Cub without ADS B legally below 10,000 feet. Meanwhile there are corporate jets and commercial airliners going into both of those airports on a regular basis. You can bet they are a lot lower than 10,000 feet in that area.

    I guess i dont understand the whole implementation. What am I missing?

    Rich
    The same way non transponder equipped aircraft are seen now. They are not seen by any system. Controllers usually suspress primaries.
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    Not out here, they don't. They track us, and seek altitude info. As far as I can tell, none of us has had any problems. However, there are an average of three violations a day with transponder-equipped airplanes wandering into B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Not out here, they don't. They track us, and seek altitude info. As far as I can tell, none of us has had any problems. However, there are an average of three violations a day with transponder-equipped airplanes wandering into B.
    Why are you answering?

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    To late. Already in there.

    Web
    This is a nonairplane answer that I would like more information about. Do you have any links to back this up or to inform? I don't doubt you as I have heard about little black boxes in motor vehicles, just no details.
    N1PA

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    My 2017 Audi owner manual says there is an event recorder that saves the last 30 seconds of data when the air bags deploy. They say they won't give the data to law enforcement "unless they request it ".

    Rich
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    spinner2's Avatar
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    My experience with ADS-B is all positive. And I live in Class G airspace.
    Nicht der Ort fur mich.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    I have some empathy. We are at just over half of our 1977 GA flights, and a much larger percentage of GA is now turbine, and generally on an IFR flight plan. Is all this really necessary, and if so, should we expect a measurable decrease in midairs?

    On the other hand, if you can wait 'till June 2020 I predict a truly inexpensive, small unit that will replace your transponder. The down-side is that they will have your name, address, and the location of your children at their fingertips, every time you fly. Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025.
    If you have a Mode S transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. I don't think they need ADS-B for 'surveillance'...

    (Edited to correct from "If you already have a Mode C transponder" to read "Mode S" after several people pointed out my error. Sorry!)
    Last edited by JimParker256; 04-20-2017 at 03:20 PM.
    Jim Parker
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    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    My experience with ADS-B is all positive. And I live in Class G airspace.
    i love my ADS-B in/out with ForeFlight. It's not the end-all buts it's really valuable info in the cockpit, especially in congested airspace where it's required. A long way from whooy. Been flying it since last August. I would suggest flying with it for enough time to making a rational decision before dissing it. I see people pissing away money on Cubs on a bunch more expensive things that don't really add much value to safety and making flying the plane better.
    =========
    PA-12 fan
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  18. #18
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    ADS-B Out is all that's required and is pretty straight forward, and that is only required if you fly in the airspace previously listed. A lot of the confusion is coming from all the options we have here in the US. In most of the rest of the world, you still must comply with ADS-B out to fly in certain airspace, but only by use of a Mode-S transponder with a WAAS III GPS feed. That's cut and dried. No other options. In return for equipping, you get nothing. No TIS-B. No FIS-B. No NexRad Radar. Nothing.

    In the US, we have the option of keeping our Mode-C transponders and using UAT-Out on 978 MHZ as an alternative. It should be a less expensive option, although that's not always the case. Additionally, whether you have ADS-B Out or not, you get FIS-B weather and NexRad radar being broadcast from the ADS-B towers. As an enticement to equip, you also get TIS-B traffic that can be displayed in your cockpit.

    I equipped one plane with the fully compliant ADS-B in and out 3 years ago. Even though I fly in an area with sparse coverage, I am often time surprised by how much traffic is out there. The best part is that you are alerted to traffic so you know where to look to find them, or can deconflict long before there is an issue. I have not equipped the SC clone with ADS-B out or TIS-B traffic yet. It would be nice to have the traffic information on board, but the majority of the time, I am not flying at altitudes where traffic conflicts happen much, so I mostly only have to deal with traffic close in around the airport. Eventually, I will equip it as well, but will likely wait until closer to the 2020 deadline.

    As many have stated before, it's not cheap. It's a bloated overspent program. But it's also a reality we have to deal with and there are some nice advantages to being equipped here in the US.

    -Cub Builder
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    Flying home in low weather. Still in uncontrolled airspace so 1 mile is legal. Staying low to get that mile. The ground view is reduced from normal so I don't know where I am relative to that radio tower that I know is out here. What do I do? Look at the obstacles feature on the GPS. It shows me where that tower is. ADS-B adds other airplanes to that screen, too. Now I can avoid what I knew was there AND what I didn't know was there. That information allows me to pay more attention to flying the plane. What's not to like?

    Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-20-2017 at 10:20 AM.

  20. #20
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    If you have a Mode C transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. I don't think they need ADS-B for 'surveillance'...
    I disagree. Maybe Mode S ?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post

    Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.
    Isn't the tower already doing that for you?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    No.

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Flying home in low weather. Still in uncontrolled airspace so 1 mile is legal. Staying low to get that mile. The ground view is reduced from normal so I don't know where I am relative to that radio tower that I know is out here. What do I do? Look at the obstacles feature on the GPS. It shows me where that tower is. ADS-B adds other airplanes to that screen, too. Now I can avoid what I knew was there AND what I didn't know was there. That information allows me to pay more attention to flying the plane. What's not to like?

    Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.
    Stewart,

    I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

    MTV

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    My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.
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  25. #25
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.
    Agree with you 100%. Just don't force me to do the same

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  26. #26
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    If you have a Mode C transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. ..
    Not true. That is Mode S.
    Last edited by Eddie Foy; 04-20-2017 at 02:55 PM.
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  27. #27
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Stewart,

    I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

    MTV
    You will see an OUT if you have an IN, via direct communication. Non OUTS only appear through rebroadcast from a ground station. As I understand it.
    Eddie Foy
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I disagree. Maybe Mode S ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Not true. That is Mode S.
    You're both correct, and I was mistaken. My confusion stems from the fact that my previous airplane was Mode-S equipped and had the ICAO code assigned, and when I look at the registration online for my current airplane (which has a Mode C transponder), I noted that it also has that ICAO code assigned -- I just failed to notice that the label for that field is "Mode S Code"... Sorry for the bad info. I'll edit the original post (if I can) to indicate the info was wrong.

    Thanks for the "fact check"...
    Jim Parker
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  29. #29
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Stewart,

    I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

    MTV
    As I found out in my non-ADS-B "Out" Cub, but with a GDL39 as the "In" source, I can see an ADS-B Out transponder if it is line-of-sight from me. I do not have to be within range of an ADS-B tower. Garmin calls this Air-to-Air.

    In my Cessna, which is ADS-B Out equipped, and if I'm in range of an ADS-B tower, I can also see ordinary Mode C traffic through a re-broadcast of radar traffic, ADS-B Out traffic that isn't necessarily line-of-sight and that same line-of-sight traffic I could see in the Cub. I am using the same GDL 39 for In in the Cessna.

    In the non-Out Cub I can also see the same traffic as I would in the Cessna if the ADS-B tower is sending a signal to an Out plane that is relatively close to me.

    I like the system. No complaints from me.
    Nicht der Ort fur mich.
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  30. #30
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.
    Pirep, Schmirep Stewart. Study up on the capabilities and functionality of the system. My point was simply that without contact with a GBT, you MAY not see all the transponder equipped aircraft as traffic, as your previous post stated.

    Im glad you're happy with the system. I have tried it with ADS-B in, via a Stratus 1S, and in this part of the world, it's utility is limited at best. I've flown with it in the Midwest, and it works much better. I no longer live there, however. And the radar images transmitted by ADS-B are very poor compared to XM Weather images. So, where I fly these days, I'll keep looking out the window for traffic.

    So, there's my pirep.

    MTV

  31. #31

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    Unless you broadcast ADS-B out you won't get the whole picture of ADS-B in. Not everyone understands that it makes a big difference. That's why I asked.
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  32. #32

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    My pirep is for GB. At first I didn't understand the question.

    About two years ago local towers started inquiring. Then a buddy in one of the towers clued me in - "Bob, just call Socal now. They are just about to ask me, and then I have to ask you, and then I have to call them back . . ."

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    Ok, got it. Here is the thing. If you are in their airspace they are going ask, and you have to reply. Why not make it easy on everyone and do it digitally. In the end what difference does it make? You either are or you "ain't". You cannot be a little bit pregnant.

    As to those of you who worry about "Big Brother". You most likely have a smart phone in your pocket. You have a credit card in your wallet. The NSA can turn on the mic or the camera on your smart phone anytime they want. They can determine your position and yes even GPS altitude from most smart phones(Read "The Snowden Files"). The NSA can read where you are off your chip embedded credit cards anytime you are in range of a card reader. Nor do they have to be "looking" for your device, as they sweep data, pretty much all data, all the time and you phone is always giving out position data. As Glenn Greenwald of TheIntercept.com once noted that in "1984" the government had microphones and cameras everywhere. They do now and you bought the mic, the camera and the locator for them when you visited the Verizon store. The fact that you are on this site means you are connected in every possible way, so if you think you will avoid "being on the grid" by not using ADS-B, think again. To believe otherwise is a fantasy.

  34. #34
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Lol. So why would I continue to make it easy for them?

    Web
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    Because we love this kind of government?

    I have a flip-phone. My wife makes me carry it. The iPad rarely leaves the house. I bet they are not tracking my SL-40 unless I transmit.
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    My tin foil hat foils all that stuff!

    Eddie Foy
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Lol. So why would I continue to make it easy for them?

    Web
    I did not say, make it easy for them, I said make it easy on everyone, than includes you. Every radio call I can eliminate is a good one. Which is why CPDLC is a marvelous thing as well. I wish there was more of it. That said, a lot of our radio methodology is absurd. In many countries when you check in with an approach controller, they only want to hear one thing. Your call sign. They know who they are, it is the same facilities so they know what altitude you are at and what you are doing. So just state your call sign. Ever consider how much extra talking we do that is not necessary?

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Because we love this kind of government?

    I have a flip-phone. My wife makes me carry it. The iPad rarely leaves the house. I bet they are not tracking my SL-40 unless I transmit.
    They don't monitor your iPad, they monitor the server your iPad goes through. Google "NSA PRISM"

    http://www.npr.org/sections/parallel...nce-activities

    The real tin foil hat crowd is one who thinks that ADS-B will "give them up" while banging away on a keyboard on the Internet. And yes, your transmissions on your SL-40 are monitored. No body really cares but the data is stored for analysis if need be. NSA has access to and stores all FAA ATC recordings and monitors all non FAA frequencies through a broad band receiver scooping up all transmissions on all spectrums. Think of it as a camera without a lens, that records pixels in all light spectrums, then the pixels are collated later if needed. Their mission is "signals intelligence" after all.

  39. #39

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    Well, I do agree on minimizing radio traffic. Out here, exact readbacks are being taught. I am trying to slow that down a bit. I teach runway name and call sign, with "wilco" instead of reading back "extend downwind number three behind the King Air on right base, caution the Cessna on final at 11 O'Clock". My answer to all that is "28 Right number 3, 4 zulu whiskey". We never answer standbys.

    Tighter control and more scrutiny of citizens is not my big deal, even though I am kind of the token liberal around here. I believe that such government interest leads to Fascism. Opinion.

  40. #40
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    So when ADS-B takes ahold, we won't have to make radio calls?
    No more clearance for entry into B C D airspace calls?
    No more traffic calls?
    No more "inbound to land" calls to the tower?
    Why does this seem unlikely?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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