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Thread: Mini, portable efis?

  1. #1

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    Mini, portable efis?

    Anyone have experience with G-5, D-2 or the GRT Mini-GA, Mini-X. I like that it has terrain and an optional magnetometer. I'm driving a pa-14, all electric, no AH or gyrocompass. Have Foreflight on a Mini I-pad w/ Stratus 2-S ( Appareo is in the future) and two empty holes infront of me. Strictly for back-up, night time and getting out of trouble.

  2. #2
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Will report on the G-5 soon
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    When talking to a Garmin tech expert about adding a G5 to backup my G3X I asked why I wouldn't just use my iPhone or iPad as the backup instead. He didn't have any reasons. I omitted the G5 from my equipment list. They do look good, though.
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-12-2017 at 09:27 AM.
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I have a G5 and like it.
    It has an artificial horizon page with directional info, rate of turn, and slip/skid ball, as well as a DG page.
    You can set a heading bug on the DG, and it can also be driven by a Garmin nav device for a true HSI display.

    A buddy of mine bought a Dynon D2 a while before the G5 came out, he likes it & thinks it's every bit as good as the G5.
    Plus it can be swapped from plane to plane easier. I think the G5 looks tidier but that's just me.

    The G5 is not portable, meaning that it needs some sort of approval or signoff in a certificated airplane.
    Mine was installed as a minor alteration per FAA policy statement PS-ACE-23-08, which requires it to have a backup battery.
    Total equipment cost was $1440: $1200 for the G5, $50 for the install kit, $20 for a circuit breaker, $150 for the backup battery, and $20 for a remote GPS antenna. I installed it all myself and an A&P buddy inspected it and did the logbook entry.
    I think the Dynon D2's go for about a grand, and just clip into place.
    You might still need or want an antenna & power source though.
    Last edited by hotrod180; 04-12-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    I have a Dynon D1, and it is excellent. I can only imagine that the D2 would be even better.
    Gordon

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  6. #6
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Pardon my ignorance, what is a G-5? Garmin has one which lists for $2,149.00. Motorola has one which lists for $229.99. ????????????????????
    N1PA

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    m.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garmin-g5.php
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    Just be aware that the less expensive G5 EFIS version (which ironically is more capable) is for experimental aircraft. That's the one with both AI and DG/HSI in a single device, and which can drive your Garmin experimental autopilot as well.

    Garmin also has a G5 model that is approved as "primary" instrumentation for certified aircraft (via STC) that costs a bit more (presumably to cover the required backup battery and the STC process). On the "approved for certified" version, you have to choose whether you want the "Attitude Indicator" version or the DG/HSI version.

    On another forum, a guy who was at Sun-N-Fun says he talked to a Garmin employee "after hours" who told him they are trying to get the G5/Autopilot approved by AirVenture 2017. That would be very cool!
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I installed the first "experimental" version of the Garmin G5 EFIS as a minor alteration,
    per FAA policy statement. I paid $1400 for the instrument, installation kit, & backup battery.
    Shortly thereafter, Garmin came out with the first STC'd version.
    I believe the list price was $2150. I assume the extra $750 was to cover the costs of developing the STC.
    Now the second version is out and STC'd, for use as a DG. I think it lists at about $2500- I assume the added price there is to pay for the required remote magnetometer.
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  10. #10
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, what is a G-5? Garmin has one which lists for $2,149.00. Motorola has one which lists for $229.99. ????????????????????
    Besides any Motorola products, I think there's three versions of the Garmin G5 EFIS:
    the original ("experimental") one, the first STC'd one, and the second (DG / HSI) STC'd one.
    To further confuse things, I believe Garmin also makes a G5 unit which is for golfing use?
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    When somebody does add the new magnetometer to a flying airplane I'd appreciate an installation pirep. The magnetometer for the G3X is not easily installed due to restrictions on distance from instruments, antennae, and any steel parts. Plus the install position tolerance is pretty exacting. They advertise this new one as installer friendly. I'm curious about it.

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    I'm running a GRT Mini in my experimental and love it. I did away with my heavy old fashioned ASI and VSI, it performs those functions just fine. No magnometer and I already have a IFLY GPS, so I can't speak to it's other features. Sure, if I lose all power I have no ASI, big whoop, if I can't fly without it by now I deserve to crash. I try not to think about how I now have the capability to fly in clouds, as I don't of course know how, but I do have an artificial horizon and bank indicator and I hear that's all you need?! I got it for the above stated needs and that's pretty much it.
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    FdxLou's Avatar
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    I have a GRT Mini GA and magnetometer in my airplane. Love the nav/map feature. If my 796 craps out I have a backup. The GRT is much more feature rich than the G5 or D10A. I no longer need my 496 as a backup. CHA-CHING!
    I kept the analog Airspeed and Altimeter.

    Lou
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Guy I know installed a Dynon D10 and bitched about the magnetometer being a royal PITA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FdxLou View Post
    I have a GRT Mini GA and magnetometer in my airplane. Love the nav/map feature. If my 796 craps out I have a backup. The GRT is much more feature rich than the G5 or D10A. I no longer need my 496 as a backup. CHA-CHING!
    I kept the analog Airspeed and Altimeter.

    Lou
    How tough was it to install the GRT magnetometer,any tips or pics? What did u install it in? I've got a PA-14.


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    I thought the magnetometer was internal... is it outside the unit? Im looking at these also for my vfr plane, all i have is airspeed altimeter turn coordinator and VSI, got in some nasty wx last week and was flying by the turn coordinator and Avare app on my nexus 7 until i saw an airport directly below me. The Garmin g5 and GRT ga are the two im considering, the Dynon D2 is cheaper $999 that might be all I need though..

    GRT GA $1700., $1950. with magnetometer
    Garmin $1200 plus $100 for install package.. enough to make me throw garmin out of the decision charging for installation kit..

    This looks good to for $1050 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...tra-efis-2.php
    Last edited by Eddie747; 04-14-2017 at 05:35 PM.

  17. #17
    FdxLou's Avatar
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    For a certified aircraft it needs to be mounted as a portable unit. Mine is in the rear fuselage. You need to map the area for any magnetized material within 2 ft. Call GRT for advise if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pfm View Post
    How tough was it to install the GRT magnetometer,any tips or pics? What did u install it in? I've got a PA-14.


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  18. #18
    aktango58's Avatar
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    The G-5 instructions state that the unit can replace either the AI or the Turn and bank, but not both with the same instrument. I believe it is all the same unit, so if you want to pull both, you need two G-5s. (Certified IFR).

    Yes, the STC one is more expensive, and I understand has one less feature.

    Sort of fun discussing the number of 'features' like we need it all... remember back when we had to decide if we were going to install a Loran? Or two Glideslopes?

    Any of these seem light years ahead of the old six pack, and after watching the horizons go out steadily this winter I am of the opinion an electric EFIS can not be any less reliable

    You do not need the install kit... but saves making a harness and other parts.
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    Im wondering if the G5 $1198. exp version can replace my baro altimeter in my VFR Cub, the only instruments I have are Airspeed, Altimeter, Turn Coordinator and VSI. I dont want to get rid of the Turn Coordinator that puppy is nice and can save your butt if the G5 decided to quit and Murphy will guarantee the G5 will go out the only time I accidentally get into the soup, so I want to keep the T/C. I like having a VSI to, the one instrument that I dont really need is the altimeter, I always back that up and set it to my gps altitude in flight, and if I lost the G5 I have my tablet or phone that shows my MSL altitude, I know those aren't Faa approved but if I had to choose one of my four instruments to take out to fit the G5, the altimeter is it. The G5 has pitot and static inputs so it could do the job of my altimeter.


    Is there a legal way to pop the altimeter out of a VFR plane and replace it with the experimental version of the G5?

    I suppose if not the altimeter than the VSI would be my second choice, but than I would want the static plummed into it so it read real VS not gps VS. I wonder if that static port can be opened to work off cabin static pressure instead of having to tap into my static plumbing? That might be how it is now on my VSI, curious now have to poke my head up under the panel.
    Last edited by Eddie747; 04-15-2017 at 06:03 AM.

  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Eddie747, I guess that your Cub is a certified Cub not EAB. There are certain instruments which are required for VFR flight. If you wish to remove any of them they must be replaced with something which is fail safe. If the replacement is powered by an outside source, it can fail. As an alternative you could remotely mount your old altimeter, for example high up in a corner by the wing root where you can still see it but it is out of the way. Then it would still be there to comply with the regs.

    It is not a good idea to have your static port open to the cockpit because the shape of the fuselage distorts the pressure within, producing false information.
    N1PA

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    Why not replace the VSI with the G5? The G5 shows VSI, so your VSI (which is generally not a "required" instrument) would be redundant. The STC'ed G5 version is approved ONLY as a replacement for either the Attitude Indicator, or the Directional Gyro. Technically, you cannot replace the ASI with a G5, per the STC, even though the G5 displays the ASI information.
    Jim Parker
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    I should add, a few times a year I get to do some engine off ridge soaring in my bird, and the GRT Mini's VSI is responsive enough to function as a half ass vario.

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie747 View Post
    ............
    GRT GA $1700., $1950. with magnetometer
    Garmin $1200 plus $100 for install package.. enough to make me throw garmin out of the decision charging for installation kit.....
    Last year, the install kit was $50 not $100. And even if it's 100, at 1300 total the Garmin is still cheaper than the GRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    ....You do not need the install kit... but saves making a harness and other parts.
    Besides the harness connector, the install kit includes a mounting bracket which attaches to a standard 3-1/8" hole and accepts the G5.
    Looks to me like it would be more than $50 worth of PITA to fabricate a substitute.
    Like Eddie747, I thought it was BS for Garmin to sell the install kit separately but I suppose there's some sort of reasoning behind it.
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    FdxLou's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that the Mini GA has a built in gps with a map page and updatable nav database.
    It also has synvis and terrain/obstacles. No comparison between the two imho.

    Lou

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    Still not as functional as an iPad or other tablet running one of the popular pilot apps with a GDL39-3C or Stratus 2. What advantages does it offer that the iPad solution doesn't? Serious question. I struggled with choosing the G3X over an iPad with a separate engine monitor. This stuff is changing so fast I'm not sure whether I made the right decision.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Still not as functional as an iPad or other tablet running one of the popular pilot apps with a GDL39-3C or Stratus 2. What advantages does it offer that the iPad solution doesn't? Serious question. I struggled with choosing the G3X over an iPad with a separate engine monitor. This stuff is changing so fast I'm not sure whether I made the right decision.
    I think it depends on what you want. I got caught in crap weather in ohio last week, the forcast was for vfr and it turned imc quick, actually the metars were not calling it imc once i got on the ground, but while i was in the snow I could not see a quarter mile in front of me, only strait down. It sucked, was scanning my turn coordinator and than down on my lap were my 7 inch nexus 7 droid tablet with Avare moving map app was doing a great job of showing what I was supposed to be seeing out the window, i could keep wings level with turn coordinator and course with the tablet on my lap, but was not easy, scanning from my lap to the panel in turbulent air was hard keeping wings level. If youre ipad is installed in your panel than your probably ok, but mine wasnt, it was PITA.

    I just want a simple ADI on the panel so I dont need to mess with the tablet. Peace of mind. The GRT GA is $400 more than the Garmin, but is installable in my certified plane because its portable it pops on and off a fixed mount on the panel, the non approved G5 is not portable, does that mean a hard No for legally installing it in place of my not required VSI?

    It would be great if you guys that have the GRT GA and the non approved Garmin 5 could make a short 3 minute video of them in use showing their stuff. I am not going to go with the Faa approved version of the G5 more than I want to spend and it doesnt have the HSI page like the non Faa approved less expensive version.
    Last edited by Eddie747; 04-15-2017 at 11:24 AM.

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    So the deficiency was in the location of the device? You can fix that very easily. I'm more interested in a functional comparison.
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-15-2017 at 11:19 AM.

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    My preference changed from iPad to iPhone 7 Plus because I always have my phone with me and it's easier to find space to velcro it in place. Sitting in my living room I accessed the navigation menu and selected panel view in a couple of seconds, literally. When connected to my GDL the app is amazingly accurate compared to my flight instruments including the DG in the Cessna, which is only as accurate as my willingness to set it with my compass. An AH view is just as easily accessed by selecting the synthetic vision screen. I'm not criticizing anyone's choices, just looking for information about why they make their choices.


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    Last edited by stewartb; 04-15-2017 at 11:39 AM.

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    That iphone stratus/GDL is something else to consider, how much $ was total cost. I dont use apple products, do they run on droid?

    Another thing im concerned about is panel vibration, not bad but Lycoming vibration. When I touch the panel there is some constant vibration, wonder if that will affect display or internal components of these not cheap instruments?

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie747 View Post
    ... the non approved G5 is not portable, does that mean a hard No for legally installing it in place of my not required VSI?
    The ASI & VSI in the G5 tie into the pitot/static system during installation, so they would not seem to be portable.
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    For years, I've used a RAM suction-cup mount to attach my iPad Mini (and/or iPhone 7+) to the corner of the windshield of my airplane, and it holds it very well. I do re-attach it before every flight, just to be sure. For the airplane I'm building, I plan to attach a couple of RAM ball-mounts to the panel, and attach both the iPhone and iPad Mini to the ball mount. That should be rock-solid.

    As for vibration levels, I've got zero concerns about the vibration level of the panel being harmful to the devices through the RAM mounts. I would assume that a Samsung, LG, or other "name-brand" Android device would be equally solid in that environment.
    Jim Parker
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    The ASI & VSI in the G5 tie into the pitot/static system during installation, so they would not seem to be portable.
    We know its not portable, once its in its in, even if you just install it without hooking up the pitot and static and run it raw out of the box using only gps data for speed and vsi, it is still screwed into the panel and cant get away with pop off portable like the GRT GA unit does.

    I guess what I am asking here is if it can be installed without a field approval or other complicated procedure?

    If the answer is no, well Im limited to the Dynon D2 or the portable GRT GA.

    Wow, just reread my post and thinking about how by not allowing me to install the G5 because its not portable unless I go through a complicated approval process.. (if thats the case) they're really making flying less safe than more safe.
    Last edited by Eddie747; 04-15-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie747 View Post
    I guess what I am asking here is if it can be installed without a field approval or other complicated procedure?
    If you are removing a not required instrument in order to install another not required instrument. Do it. It would be a minor alteration. A&P signature only in air frame log book. As long as you have all of the required instruments anything else is just stuff. If you install it as a removable item there is no sign off required as it is not fixed to the plane.
    N1PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie747 View Post
    Wow, just reread my post and thinking about how by not allowing me to install the G5 because its not portable unless I go through a complicated approval process.. (if thats the case) they're really making flying less safe than more safe.
    You absolutely can install a G5 in your plane without going through any FAA approval process (other than the IA sign-off). The issue is that you don't want to pay for the version of the G5 that comes with the STC / Approval already done for you. I get it - my flight budget is pretty tight. For some people it might be worth the money, and for others it isn't. Your airplane, your decision – no argument from me there.

    But I really cannot see how either the FAA or Garmin are "making flying less safe" because you have chosen not to avail yourself of their offering for your certified airplane. You seem willing to spend $1300 for the experimental G5, but for $900 more, you could have the approved version with the STC.

    Yeah, I wish we could use the cheaper experimental version, and no, I'm not spending the $2,200 to put a G5 in my '65 Champion 7ECA either... But I do recognize what a huge step the FAA (and Garmin, for that matter) have taken in getting the STC approval done for the G5 (as well as the Dynon/EAA/FAA partnership on the D10/D100). I've flown less than 50 hours of actual instrument time, but had 3 vacuum pump failures. Being able to purchase a G5 for well under the cost of an AI and Vacuum Pump is a huge win in my book!
    Jim Parker
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    You absolutely can install a G5 in your plane without going through any FAA approval process (other than the IA sign-off). The issue is that you don't want to pay for the version of the G5 that comes with the STC / Approval already done for you. I get it - my flight budget is pretty tight. For some people it might be worth the money, and for others it isn't. Your airplane, your decision – no argument from me there.

    But I really cannot see how either the FAA or Garmin are "making flying less safe" because you have chosen not to avail yourself of their offering for your certified airplane. You seem willing to spend $1300 for the experimental G5, but for $900 more, you could have the approved version with the STC.

    Yeah, I wish we could use the cheaper experimental version, and no, I'm not spending the $2,200 to put a G5 in my '65 Champion 7ECA either... But I do recognize what a huge step the FAA (and Garmin, for that matter) have taken in getting the STC approval done for the G5 (as well as the Dynon/EAA/FAA partnership on the D10/D100). I've flown less than 50 hours of actual instrument time, but had 3 vacuum pump failures. Being able to purchase a G5 for well under the cost of an AI and Vacuum Pump is a huge win in my book!
    Its not $900 more, its $900 + $2,200., $3,100. more you have to buy two FAAA approved versions to do what one non approved version does.

    Thanks though, will run it by my mechanic and see if he will sign off on installing the non approved version inplace of my not required VSI, since its not required its sounds like a no brainer for virtue of safety reason.

  37. #37

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    Eddie, since you asked. http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotS...FUGTfgodHIIOiw

    The GDL39-3D communicates with Garmin Pilot and Foreflight. GP includes synthetic vision in the subscription. Foreflight adds a premium for syn vis. My subscription costs $75 per year and on my iDevices it updates automatically when updates are released. There are some features that don't work as well on Androids (you need to ask an Android user) but unlike Foreflight, it is supported for Androids. It also can link to some of Garmin's aviation GPS units giving them ADHRS functions, so if you use a GPS you can get your HSI or AH from that. Not trying to convince you or sway you, just answering your questions. I'm still interested why guys favor the other options mentioned previously.
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-15-2017 at 07:38 PM.

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    Seems a bit complicated buying all that different equipment and than needing to subscribe to something for it to work.. im not into apps, im oldschool I guess.
    Last edited by Eddie747; 04-15-2017 at 09:40 PM.
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    Stewart
    Which app is this screenshot?
    Lou


    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My preference changed from iPad to iPhone 7 Plus because I always have my phone with me and it's easier to find space to velcro it in place. Sitting in my living room I accessed the navigation menu and selected panel view in a couple of seconds, literally. When connected to my GDL the app is amazingly accurate compared to my flight instruments including the DG in the Cessna, which is only as accurate as my willingness to set it with my compass. An AH view is just as easily accessed by selecting the synthetic vision screen. I'm not criticizing anyone's choices, just looking for information about why they make their choices.


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    Garmin Pilot standard on my iPhone. From home so not linked to the GDL.

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