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Thread: Another PA-12 rebuild-my Phoenix story

  1. #41

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    [QUOTE=

    I laugh at the people who cover & paint their projects first, then do all the REAL WORK.... ends up all nicked up, with patches for things they didn't envision....[/QUOTE]

    So did someone tell you about the day I had the fuselage freshly covered and a 8 penny nail I was bending in the vise shot out of the vise, flew all the way across the hangar and gut shot the side of the fuselage at an obtuse angle (it didn't even have the decency to go in straight), argh
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  2. #42
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    So did someone tell you about the day I had the fuselage freshly covered and a 8 penny nail I was bending in the vise shot out of the vise, flew all the way across the hangar and gut shot the side of the fuselage at an obtuse angle (it didn't even have the decency to go in straight), argh
    I feel your pain, many times over.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  3. #43
    Speedo's Avatar
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    Dumb questions here, so please forgive my ignorance. You mentioned that you had to spend a lot of time getting the stripe laid out correctly, including bringing in the body man and putting pieces on and then taking them back off again. Is it possible to use vinyl graphics for stripes, and if so, does it take a similar amount of time? Do vinyl graphics have negatives that make them much less desirable than painting?
    Speedo

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Dumb questions here, so please forgive my ignorance. You mentioned that you had to spend a lot of time getting the stripe laid out correctly, including bringing in the body man and putting pieces on and then taking them back off again. Is it possible to use vinyl graphics for stripes, and if so, does it take a similar amount of time? Do vinyl graphics have negatives that make them much less desirable than painting?
    I have no experience with vinyl for a permanent stripe but I do know folks have used vinyl for the cub lightening bolt before.

    I did use a vinyl stencil to spray the 12" numbers on my last project- it worked OK but with the fresh poly-fiber products off gassing created some sort of chemical bond with the stencil glue and it was a PITA to remove. I had the same issue with the contact paper layout stencil on my VG's. this time I will wait a year before I deal with the VG's.

  5. #45
    Speedo's Avatar
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    I hadn't thought about the outgassing problem. The difficulties you had with the stencil and layout pattern ,makes me think one would want to wait a long time before applying a vinyl stripe. Thanks for sharing your experience.
    Speedo

  6. #46
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    I have no experience with vinyl for a permanent stripe but I do know folks have used vinyl for the cub lightening bolt before.

    I did use a vinyl stencil to spray the 12" numbers on my last project- it worked OK but with the fresh poly-fiber products off gassing created some sort of chemical bond with the stencil glue and it was a PITA to remove. I had the same issue with the contact paper layout stencil on my VG's. this time I will wait a year before I deal with the VG's.
    vinyl is bad choice on fabric.... won't last many years in general... and crud starts getting in behind it because of fabric weave...

    yeah I had to repaint a 172 side when the stencil for N-Number "bonded" to the paint... long time ago, but was my fault, I had to turn heaters off to paint, had ICE on my ladder by time i was done painting, paint never chemically kicked off properly...

  7. #47

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    Well I was afraid this day was going to come. My flying cub needed an annual before the phoenix got completed. So today was a swapping of the planes in the hangars and for a couple of hours today I was without a plane to fly at all. But no squawks on 69B and I'm back in business. It gave me a good chance to put them out in the sun and get a couple of shots. I guess I must like red.

    My goal of flying by July 1 won't become a reality but it'll be close. I guess those 2 smith river floats and one on the Marias River took their toll. It now feels like i am running in quick sand to get to the finish line.

    I followed Mike's advise and just added a 12" extension on my exhaust system, really the only way it could work since I couldn't have gotten the muffler in or out of the motor mount with the 12"'s permanently attached. A 12" piece of stainless was found at Spruce and a local muffler shop stretched it for me.

    A couple of rivets in the bottom cowl in the morning and the FWF will be all done, ready to mount the prop-once I get the nose bowl painted. Flaps and Ailerons are ready to go on, as is the sky light once I hook up the Dakota Cub fuel gauges, at which time the wing root panels can be permanently attached. The second rebuilt airspeed indicator should be back from Century Instruments any day now-lets just say keep your high pressure air hose the hell away from any static line-nuf said. Charge the brakes and weigh it and it should be close to good to go.....barring any unforeseen reverse progress moments.

    Is now the time I should be starting an empty weight poll?

    Here's a couple of shots during today's hangar shuffling:

    20170621_083257(1).jpg20170621_083446.jpg20170621_083230.jpg20170621_083221.jpg20170621_083823.jpg

  8. #48
    skukum12's Avatar
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    A day for 12s!!
    "Always looking up"

  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    I followed Mike's advise and just added a 12" extension on my exhaust system, really the only way it could work since I couldn't have gotten the muffler in or out of the motor mount with the 12"'s permanently attached. A 12" piece of stainless was found at Spruce and a local muffler shop stretched it for me.


    20170621_083221.jpg
    Keep a close eye on the welded joint on the muffler where the tail pipe is attached. A long pipe such as that one which is unsupported can cause cracks at the weld on the muffler. There should be some support connecting the engine to the long pipe.
    N1PA
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  10. #50
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I like red too. Makes me think I should forget trying to sell mine.
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  11. #51

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    Do you ever feel like you are walking through quick sand to get to the end of your project, yeah me neither.....I made a bit of visible progress: I braced the exhaust pipe like Skywagons8a recommended; I got the fuel guages and panel lights installed and the wing root panels on; despite my dislike of vinyl letters I did order 3" numbers from spruce and put them in their original location-despite the paint scheme not being original-amazing how well their dark red matched my red. Getting closer, building wing root panels now, discovered a dead short in my nav lights I need to find and fix, put some turn buckles in the aileron and flap cables. weight it and have it inspected, get the books done and get a new air worthiness certificate from the FAA (original lost in the crash fire).

    I threw in a shot of the battery relocation to under the rear seat that I hadn't shown before, tho its been done for quite some time. I think of it now because of all of the 337's that will be done for this rebuild this is the only 'field approval' I'll be getting, the rest of the mod's were all either minor alterations or via STC. I didn't move the battery any further forward because I didn't want the CG to move any further forward. I didn't leave it in its original location because the gross weight increase puts tubes where the original battery door was, and the Borer extended baggage makes the battery awkward to get to from the inside.

    20170712_140714.jpg20170712_140731.jpg20170711_103556.jpg20170712_140740.jpg

    Hoping for a weight under 1150, we'll see.....
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Keep a close eye on the welded joint on the muffler where the tail pipe is attached. A long pipe such as that one which is unsupported can cause cracks at the weld on the muffler. There should be some support connecting the engine to the long pipe.
    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    Do you ever feel like you are walking through quick sand to get to the end of your project, yeah me neither.....I made a bit of visible progress: I braced the exhaust pipe like Skywagons8a recommended;
    20170712_140714.jpg.....
    Be careful, that picture is not what I said. The brace MUST be connected to the engine NOT to a part which does not move with the engine. You have tied it to the immovable cowl brace.
    N1PA

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    Is that a Supercub muffler? is it a 337 field approval or?

    Here is a pic of an original mount install on a -12 The tube that the orange wires are tied to goes from cowl channel to channel. The one holding the muffler is spring mounted to the engine mount.

    IMG_0102.JPG

    Thanks for the pics..... your project is looking good.

    Wayne

  14. #54

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    The pa18 exhaust is an option under the McKinsey stc.

    What about the braces holding the down pipe to the header tubes, or is the concern that I need a brace like the spring loaded brace?
    Last edited by MT12; 07-16-2017 at 08:32 AM.

  15. #55
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    Is that a Supercub muffler? is it a 337 field approval or?

    Here is a pic of an original mount install on a -12 The tube that the orange wires are tied to goes from cowl channel to channel. The one holding the muffler is spring mounted to the engine mount.

    IMG_0102.JPG

    Thanks for the pics..... your project is looking good.

    Wayne
    This is an O-235 thing. Same type arrangement on the Clipper and Colt. If you are going to install a Super Cub exhaust look at the drawing and install just like that. Pretty proven way of doing it. I have a previously approved 337 for the battery under the back set if you need it or you could use AC 43.13. Is that automotive battery cable hooked up to the battery? Probably a red flag for the Feds if you are going for a field approval.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  16. #56
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    The pa18 exhaust is an option under the McKinsey tac.

    What about the braces holding the down pipe to the header tubes, or is the concern that I need a brace like the spring loaded brace?
    You can clamp it to the header pipe. Leave the clamp loose enough on the tail pipe so that it can slide on the pipe. When the exhaust changes temperature, it expands and contracts. If the clamp is too tight when this happens the clamp or the connection tube can break.
    N1PA
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  17. #57

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    More visible and maybe even tangible progress. I finished installing ailerons and flaps and they are all rigged and ready to go, that and getting the wing root panels on allowed me to install the windows. With the windows on major visible progress was made pulling the paper and cellophane protective wrappers off the windshield and door, now when I sit in it making motor noises I can see out.20170721_174208.jpg

    Redid the exhaust stack brace as recommended above, following the actual piper drawings (what a concept) and looked at a couple of local 18's, thanks Steve P and skywagons for your help on that one.

    Big news, I did the final weigh in today. As I said earlier my goal (based on my other 12) was 1150. This bird has an O-320, light weight starter, oil cooler and alternator; Dakota cub 23 gallon tanks; Atlee dodge heavy duty 3" extended gear with 1.5" axles; safety cables; Borer extended baggage; 8:50's; odyssey battery; and gross weight increase......drum roll please......1152# and good C.G. I'm happy with that.

    20170721_110837.jpg

    I figured the project would be close to over when my work bench full of parts was empty.....

    20170721_174220.jpg

    Break in oil went in today, maybe first ground run in tomorrow. Need to get the books finished, get a replacement airworthiness certificate and away we go.

    whew

  18. #58
    skukum12's Avatar
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    What is the empty CG?
    "Always looking up"

  19. #59

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    12.79, same as my other 12 which flys great
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  20. #60
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT12 View Post
    12.79, same as my other 12 which flys great
    Yours and mine would be about the same weight if you add Bushwheels.

    My cg is way forward, what weights did you get at the tail? Which engine mount?
    "Always looking up"

  21. #61

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    Long, original engine mount, tail wt. 72

  22. #62

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    'What a long strange trip its been'

    I had hoped 2564M would fly in July, I figured more like the beginning of the month but today is still July right. First flight went well, a few squawks but it went well. (Airspeed indicator? I don't need no stinking airspeed indicator). She needs a bit of aileron trim work but I'm happy so far, light on the controls, trim is where I think it should be, very responsive and all the parts moved the correct directions.

    The airworthiness certificate burned up with the wreck in 2001 so the feds wanted to inspect it before reissuing the replacement A/C. This concerned me, tho I can't really blame them as the rebuild ended up having:
    12 New STC's
    8 reinstalled older STC's
    2 Field Approvals
    12 337's
    3 old mods reinstalled and
    4 minor alteration log book entries.

    The feds came by the hangar on Friday and could not have been nicer, easier to deal with and anxious to see this bird fly. They pointed out a couple of items they were concerned about, all good things that were easy fixes and issued the A/C.

    Five years, wow, where did that time go. Time now to sweep the hangar. Oh yea and a little more work on those first few squawks. Thanks everyone on this site that shared advice, ideas, reviews and input to help this project along, it wouldn't have been easy without you.

    Doug

    20170731_063339.jpg20170731_063335.jpg20170731_065508.jpg

  23. #63
    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    Who did the inspection?

  24. #64

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    Tom hillesland and Bobbie radkey
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  25. #65
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have admitted to the ASI malfunction. I'd be claiming it cruises at 168, it IS a Super Cruiser after all.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  26. #66
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Congratulations. Well done!! Now for the fun part, flying and enjoying it.

    Pat yourself on the back, you deserve it.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  27. #67

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    For kicks and giggles I put a pair of 29" bush wheels on my old 12 today, standard pa12 gear. ground to the center point of nose cone: 64 3/4" inflated to 9 or 10 #. The new 12 with Atlee Dodge 3" extended gear and 850's measured 65". Interesting is all I have to say.

  28. #68

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    I was just reading other posts and the subject of "just up and disappeared-once his project got done" caught my eye so I thought I'd give an update on my baby before I put her to bed next week and move south for the winter to ski (way south-90 miles to Bozeman)

    Her name is now 'Eclipse' as one of my many first memorable flights was to Idaho to watch the eclipse. I bought the last 12 on a Blue Moon so not hard guessing its name.

    I have about 50 hours on it so far, I know that's just a long weekend for some of you but I do still attempt to get the other 12 in the air as well. I tired of a lazy oil temp/pressure gauge, couldn't get a good original one from Wagaero so bought an new electronic one. Replaced the inclinometer for the same reason. Other than that, and one bad spark plug she's running great. I have ordered and received flap gap seals and VG's that will go on next spring, as well as an engine heater and an Oregon aero front seat (I had to let the hemorrhaging bank account clot up a bit before I made these last purchases)..

    I have been amazed how long it has taken me to get the trim and the feel of the plane just right, 50+ hours to be exact. It still doesn't fly exactly like my other 12, which is like putting on a nice old slipper, but then again I don't have 2000 hours in this one yet.

    The floats are all finished, painted and ready to go on in the spring as well, after of course I find a spot around here to splash her.

    FullSizeRender(5).JPEGFullSizeRender(2).jpg
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  29. #69

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    Great post! I just bought a pa12 that's ready to cover. First time for me and I have a question. Are there any Piper instructions for recovering or do you just use AC 43.13? I'll also be using the Stewart System.

  30. #70
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunceford View Post
    Great post! I just bought a pa12 that's ready to cover. First time for me and I have a question. Are there any Piper instructions for recovering or do you just use AC 43.13?
    you use piper original, and the STC info of the modern covering process you choose...

  31. #71

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    What Mike said, but i can't emphasis enough to find a 'coach' on your field to help you along, even if it means changing covering systems to correspond to your experts knowledge base. While the stits book is great, there are many little tips hidden in tribal knowledge that will save
    you hours of work if you can unearth them. At the very least go to a covering seminar somewhere if you can
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.
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  32. #72
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunceford View Post
    Great post! I just bought a pa12 that's ready to cover. First time for me and I have a question. Are there any Piper instructions for recovering or do you just use AC 43.13? I'll also be using the Stewart System.
    Welcome to the party

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  33. #73
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunceford View Post
    Great post! I just bought a pa12 that's ready to cover. First time for me and I have a question. Are there any Piper instructions for recovering or do you just use AC 43.13? I'll also be using the Stewart System.
    Do you have an A&P or do you know one? Since this is a certified airplane you may be rendering it unairworthy if you do this without an A&P's supervision.
    N1PA

  34. #74
    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    Where are you located Lunceford?

  35. #75

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    Great pictures! I'm covering a pa12 and this is my first. Is leading edge felt required, recommend or necessary? My leading edge is new metal, no dents.

  36. #76

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    Sorry for the late reply, still figuring out the site. Yes I'm a brand new A/P but I've built a Lancair 360 and I was an eight year avionics tech in the Navy. I'll still need an IA to sign off. This a major alteration due to the non original fabric.

  37. #77

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    Sorry for the late reply, still figuring out the site. I'm in Corpus Christi, TX.
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  38. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunceford View Post
    Great pictures! I'm covering a pa12 and this is my first. Is leading edge felt required, recommend or necessary? My leading edge is new metal, no dents.
    Leading edge felt is neither required or necessary, I'll let others discuss whether its recommended or not, I didn't use it. What I did tho was to start the bottom fabric on the top rear edge of the front spar, then wrapped it round the leading edge to the trailing edge that it lapped over. Then I started the top fabric on the bottom rear edge of the front spar and wrapped it over the top. I then taped over the spar like you have to anyway, this eliminated the need for a 4" leading edge tape, plus I think it looks better. Be sure the anti chafe tapes you use on the leading edge metal joints are nice and smooth and flat and it will look nice. Here's a really professional drawing of what I did.

    20180103_154828.jpg

    oops disregard the second photo of an old wall tent I have, I hit the wrong key and now can't delete it.
    Last edited by CamTom12; 01-03-2018 at 08:36 PM. Reason: Deleted the wall tent photo
    Staying alive in an airplane has a lot more to do with mastering ourselves than mastering the aircraft.
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  39. #79
    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    Same way I usually do it, other than I like my top fabric on first. I've also layed an extra layer of heavy fabric on the leading edge, below both layers of fabric. Works great, but with new leading edges, you've got plenty of protection with the method above.
    John

  40. #80
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    felt is a bad idea, used to cover/attempt to hide damage &/or poor workmanship....

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