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Thread: Oil temperature question

  1. #41
    brown bear's Avatar
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    Tim
    Call me Paranoid , but I am a little worried about the fittings you used. The weight of the valve may cause the pipe nipple to crack or brake ? Would it be better to put the valve in the middle of the hose and use steel fittings in oil cooler ?
    Doug

  2. #42

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    I prefer to have abundant cooler capacity and control temps by controlling airflow through the cooler. That's been done for years using duct tape or pilot controllable louvers like Van's and Dan's produce. That allows us to operate in a wide range of outside temps and still maintain target oil temps. When temps are on the high side the normal response, assuming engine problems have been ruled out, is to increase cooler size. In CamTom's case he replaced a 7 row cooler with another 7 row cooler. In his shoes I'd have replaced with a 9 row cooler. Actually, with my old -12 I started with a 9 row knowing I could easily reduce airflow in cold temps. My new plane has two 9 row coolers and I'll control airflow with butterfly valves in the outlet ducts. Adjusting airflow may be to restrict flow to raise temps or to slow flow down to improve cooler heat transfer. Finding the correct balance will be simple enough. It makes more sense to me to have adequate or excessive cooler capacity and control airflow as opposed to controlling oil flow. Different strokes. Interesting topic.
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-27-2016 at 01:46 PM.

  3. #43
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    Spin on oil filter with plunger and spring?

    SPIN ON oil filter CUB CRAFTERS aa.JPG Can you use a plunger and a spring with a spin on oil filter set up? All of the oil filter adapters that I have seen, show a vernatherm as part of the set up. I currently have a plunger and a spring that works fine on my PA-18 180 but I would like to have a spin on filter.

  4. #44

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    Yes, you'll need a vernatherm plug. The adaptor mfgrs make them for viscosity valve users.
    Last edited by stewartb; 11-27-2016 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #45

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    In most cases, I believe you can. I have filter adapters and simply remove the vernatherm, remove the top part of the vernatherm, usually a clip or snap ring holding it in the base. Then just re-install the base. Or B&C has the plug that takes the place of the vernatherm.
    Returning to the subject of controlling oil temps. There are two completely different scenarios. Using louvers, air control valves etc is typically used to increase oil temps. For cold operation. Installing the spring and plunger setup is usually for lowering temps. I have received many calls about oil temps being too high, never how can I increase the temperature.

  6. #46

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    Common sense is to facilitate adequate cooling in the warmest OATs you'll
    see and then adjust for cooler temps.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by brown bear View Post
    Tim
    Call me Paranoid , but I am a little worried about the fittings you used. The weight of the valve may cause the pipe nipple to crack or brake ? Would it be better to put the valve in the middle of the hose and use steel fittings in oil cooler ?
    Doug
    Donno Doug,I thought the same thing when I put it together. I have been keeping a close eye on it and it seems to be holding up fine, time will tell. I did use steel fittings, and a brass nipple, all I had at the time.

    Tim

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Donno Doug,I thought the same thing when I put it together. I have been keeping a close eye on it and it seems to be holding up fine, time will tell. I did use steel fittings, and a brass nipple, all I had at the time.

    Tim
    Got to be a boilermaker. A pipefitter wouldn't do that.


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  9. #49

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    I would loose the vernatherm and see what that does for ya.
    DENNY

  10. #50
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    Anyone have the part number for the "viscosity valve" for an O-320?

  11. #51
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    Ok, oil analysis kit ordered.

    I'm going to pull the oil filter adapter and check to see that nothing is stuck or gunked up back there. This is what I've found for the gasket (lycoming 06b23862):

    Here's what I've found that the back of the adapter (lycoming 77852) looks like:


    Seems like large openings in the adapter covered by small holes in the gasket. I'm ordering a new gasket, can someone verify I have the right part number? I'm also looking for a digital SSP 885-2 if anyone has one they can email me.

    I thought about just pulling the vernatherm and going with a ball-valve, but I think I'm going to hold off on that step until after I check this stuff out. I'd like to make sure I understand what the problem was, and don't want to change too much at once. I found most of the parts I would need to make that mod if/when the time comes, though.

    Thanks!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefoy84 View Post
    Anyone have the part number for the "viscosity valve" for an O-320?
    Eddie,
    Here's what I found for the part numbers:

    Plunger: 62415 ($31 at Spruce)
    Spring: 69436 ($45 at Spruce)
    Crush washer: 76510 ($2 at Spruce)

    And it looks like you just reuse the plug that's currently installed to hold the spring/plunger in the hole.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Ok, oil analysis kit ordered.

    I'm going to pull the oil filter adapter and check to see that nothing is stuck or gunked up back there. This is what I've found for the gasket (lycoming 06b23862):

    Here's what I've found that the back of the adapter (lycoming 77852) looks like:


    Seems like large openings in the adapter covered by small holes in the gasket. I'm ordering a new gasket, can someone verify I have the right part number? I'm also looking for a digital SSP 885-2 if anyone has one they can email me.

    I thought about just pulling the vernatherm and going with a ball-valve, but I think I'm going to hold off on that step until after I check this stuff out. I'd like to make sure I understand what the problem was, and don't want to change too much at once. I found most of the parts I would need to make that mod if/when the time comes, though.

    Thanks!
    Can anyone verify the correct gasket part number for me before I hit the order button?

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    This is what I've found for the gasket (lycoming 06b23862):


    Here's what I've found that the back of the adapter (lycoming 77852) looks like:


    Seems like large openings in the adapter covered by small holes in the gasket.
    I found a picture of the accessory case - looks like this gasket isn't that far off:


    I'd still like a dummy-check from someone that'd know before I order it and get ready to do some tear-down though.

    Thanks!

  15. #55
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    Dug out my old vernatherm to get a picture of the face:



    Looks like I remembered it right, 360 deg witness mark. This one flew in the engine for about 200 hours before I replaced it, hoping to fix the high oil temp problem. The new one has the exact same symptoms as the old one did. I'm going to risk it with the old lady and boil this thing in the kitchen tonight to measure for proper growth - but the witness mark tells me that it was growing to the right length otherwise it wouldn't have made contact. Hopefully I don't get in trouble, haha!

    Does anyone have a copy of Lycoming SSP 885-2 they can email me? Also, can anyone verify that this is the correct filter adapter gasket part number: 06b23862

  16. #56
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    I used to have high oil temps (200-210 ish). Changed cooler to 9 row. Some improvement. Also used to use a qt of oil every 4-6 hours in O-360. Changed cylinders and now oil temps fine (180). Now I have to cover 1/3 of the oil cooler as soon as temps drop below 40 or so. Speculate that excessive blow by was heating oil.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    I'm going to risk it with the old lady and boil this thing in the kitchen tonight to measure for proper growth - but the witness mark tells me that it was growing to the right length otherwise it wouldn't have made contact. Hopefully I don't get in trouble, haha!
    Well, the thing grew to larger than spec. Seems like a waste of $325 now to have replaced it at annual. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by 18180 View Post
    I used to have high oil temps (200-210 ish). Changed cooler to 9 row. Some improvement. Also used to use a qt of oil every 4-6 hours in O-360. Changed cylinders and now oil temps fine (180). Now I have to cover 1/3 of the oil cooler as soon as temps drop below 40 or so. Speculate that excessive blow by was heating oil.
    Thanks for the info! Hopefully an automotive-style compression test will answer that question. I'll do that test soon, too.

  18. #58
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    Well, I fell way behind on the suggestions everyone gave me here. I still have yet to do an automotive compression test, but I'm going to knock that out after work on Wednesday.


    Today I had some time at the hangar and some help from a friend, so I fabbed up a new cowl exit to see if I could help in the airflow department in case that was the problem. I went down this path because many folks have suggested that my cowl exit area wasn't large enough to vacate the lower cowl area and that airflow was likely my problem.


    Here's how the plane came:








    And here's what I made:














    The before/after was change in ~0.35 inH20 difference between each side of the baffles. This had a measurable difference in temps, at ~10-15 deg across the board for CHT and oil temp. Without had CHTs between 320-350 and OT of 195, with the mod had CHTs between 305-335 and OT of 185.


    Both scenarios flown at 135 mph, 2400 RPM, leaned for cruise, 65 deg F OAT, and a difference (high pressure to low pressure sides of the baffles) of 3.85 inH2O before and 4.2 inH2O after the mod.


    Even though improving the air flow improved the cooling, I shouldn't be hanging near 185-195 deg F oil temps in these conditions. Especially while CHTs are so close to 300 deg in 65 deg F OATs. Back to troubleshooting the oil system. Next step is an automotive compression test (I have the tool). Pending the good results of that I'll be due an oil change, so I'm going to get new hoses, send my oil cooler off for a flush, and send my oil filter adapter to somebody to check the vernatherm seat.


    More to follow!

  19. #59

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    I think that's what a vernatherm is supposed to do, not direct oil to the cooler until it reaches 185 and the plunger expands.
    My Pitts has a vernatherm and I'll get 185 degrees oil temp at 30 degrees OAT.
    My Cub doesn't have a vernatherm and I have to tape over the coolers to keep the temp up at 70 degrees OAT.

  20. #60
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    Oil temperature question

    A good friend shared his temperature numbers from a similar flight to mine (they were pretty similar) and brought me back to reality. I think it was just airflow.

    I'm still going to do the automotive compression test this week and send an oil sample for analysis. I'm also going to clean up my sheet metal duct and reinstall for some long-term data trends.

    Other than that I'm just going to put gas through the engine and monitor temp trends. I'll keep a close eye on it as temps increase, but if I can stay around 220 on a summer day around here I'll be happy.


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  21. #61
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Nothing to do with your oil temp issues but that LH tailpipe is looking pretty groady.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  22. #62
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    Yup, it's not pretty. But any corrosion is limited to the tip itself, so I've been putting it off.
    Thanks Bill.Brine thanked for this post

  23. #63
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    Steve E. Easy now I been a Boilermaker now for 30 Years!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Got to be a boilermaker. A pipefitter wouldn't do that.


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    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  24. #64
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    I had some time this afternoon so I went to the hangar! After I realized I forgot my compression tester again I decided to go flying for some more data:


    Segment 1:
    5,500 ft (30.45)
    134 mph IAS
    38 deg F OAT
    2350 RPM
    CHTs: 284, 308, 315, 314
    OT: 185 deg F
    Delta P: 4.2


    Segment 2:
    3,500 ft (30.44)
    135 mph IAS
    51 deg F OAT
    2450 RPM
    CHTs: 295, 325, 325, 324
    OT: 185 deg F
    Delta P: 4.2


    Segment 3:
    4,500 ft (30.43)
    135 mph IAS
    46 deg F OAT
    2450 RPM
    CHTs: 304, 317, 331, 325
    OT: 185 deg F
    Delta P: 4.2


    Looks like the old vernatherm is doing its job now. CHTs are super cool... I'm curious what other cowl designs really see for delta pressures. Lycoming wants 5 inches of water difference between the top and bottom of the baffles, but I'm having a hard enough time keeping the CHTs up at 4.2 inH2O!


    I'm going to leave my sheetmetal duct on there for a while, but when I feel ready for another challenge I'm going to try glassing it in permanently!

  25. #65
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    Had another fun flying day. I still haven't done the automotive compression test, but this time was because the OAT appeared warmer and I thought it'd be more fun to enjoy the day and get a good data set instead of spending the day in the hangar.


    Segment 1:
    2,650 ft (30.15)
    132 mph IAS
    59 deg F OAT
    2250 RPM
    CHTs: 297, 314, 325, 320
    OT: 190 deg F
    Delta P: 3.4


    Segment 2:
    3,000 ft (30.14)
    110 mph IAS
    53 deg F OAT
    2000 RPM
    CHTs: 293, 307, 319, 316
    OT: 181 deg F
    Delta P: 3.0


    Segment 3:
    2,000 ft (30.15)
    120 mph IAS
    61 deg F OAT
    2100 RPM
    CHTs: 297, 312, 324, 320
    OT: 189 deg F
    Delta P: 3.3


    Still looking ok. Super cool CHTs still. Oil temps well within limits, OAT is still very cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with warmer OATs. Plus its been really nice to just fly the damn plane, haha!

  26. #66
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    Did some maintenance today, pulled and cleaned all the plugs and reinstalled them in the same cylinders, but swapped bottoms and tops. I also did an automotive compression test (cold, I ran out of time to do it hot as well - 122, 120, 125, 123). After that I buttoned it all up and went flying for about an hour to top off the tanks for this upcoming weekend and to warm the oil before I changed it.


    Some spark plug images:
    #2 bottom
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/74D3CC60-2B57-4ADC-8A82-5676D3C0CCDC_zpsxdlyvads.jpg[/IMG]
    #4 top
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/C2326CEA-8728-4BBB-A11E-9139FE9B60CA_zpswtkku2zg.jpg[/IMG]
    #1 bottom
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/EF63A02C-7C62-408B-A8B9-258882EF728E_zpss33e4dm5.jpg[/IMG]
    #3 bottom
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/77EEB75C-3D5F-42A3-B1FF-559064B09561_zpsebosgpkn.jpg[/IMG]


    I tried to look at the valves but I couldn't get a good angle through the spark plug holes with the non-articulating head on my boroscope. I might try to borrow one from work one of these days just to see how they look.


    Just for completeness I pulled the viscosity valve plug and ran a magnet down there - returned nothing. I did this before the flight, and didn't think to look in there after the oil had all been drained. I had also meant to pull the oil filter adapter on this oil change and see if there was anything funky going on with the gasket, but I forgot to order a new one and couldn't get to that.


    But I did try to use my boroscope to look in the oil filter adapter while I changed the filter and came up with these:


    Vernatherm! This is from the left-most hole in the area the filter covers as viewed from the back of the engine.
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/61DB053B-EFE7-4123-A878-A76556B2C66A_zpstz5q4ori.jpg[/IMG]


    The thing on the left appears to be the pressure relief valve. Second pic is the same area, just moved to a slightly better angle to see the thing. Also, should any of this be . This is from inside the part that the filter actually screws into.
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/B1B7E4F0-661E-44A3-A908-D96B2D16F3E6_zpspxbxhw6r.jpg[/IMG]


    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/4383C66A-2813-40B9-B0A3-E17E4A421737_zpspfb3me7h.jpg[/IMG]


    I think this is the face of the pressure relief valve. This is from the right-most hole in the area the filter covers as viewed from the back of the engine.
    [IMG]i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/CamTom12/74DCD261-68D6-4475-BA8C-DBED52116B65_zpsmgaep8m1.jpg[/IMG]


    Anyways, I changed the oil and took a sample that'll go out to Blackstone Labs tomorrow morning. Then I added some MMO to the fuel and buttoned it all up for the night.


    Some data points from my oil warm-up flight:


    Segment 1:
    2,400 ft (30.05)
    139 mph IAS
    70 deg F OAT
    2475 RPM
    CHTs: 320, 333, 345, 338
    EGTs: 1305, 1334, 1301, 1364
    OT: 200 deg F
    Delta P: 4.1


    Segment 2:
    1,800 ft (30.05)
    138 mph IAS
    73 deg F OAT
    2400 RPM
    CHTs: 326, 341, 354, 345
    EGTs: 1313, 1346, 1310, 1368
    OT: 210 deg F
    Delta P: 4.1


    I did notice that my EGTs on #2 and #4 were oscillating up and down about 5-8 degrees. I don't usually watch them, so I don't know if this is normal. It ran the same as it always has - very well except higher oil temps that I would expect.

  27. #67
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    SJ,

    It won't let me add the part before "//" to my image links. It keeps telling me "Post denied. New posts are limited by number of URLs it may contain and checked if it doesn't contain forbidden words." Can you fix this so I can make my pictures post?

  28. #68
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Haven't done the hot auto compression check yet but its on the list. I have made a few flights and OTs are still higher than I'm happy with.


    No changes to anything except an oil change.


    The oil after 4.9 (cold reading, thicker oil) and 8.3 hours of flying (hot reading, thinner oil) are attached, in order.
    4.9 hr Oil.jpg8.3 hr Oil.jpg


    All of these hours have been cross country with engine conditions from 2450-2500 rpm, CHTs 310-360 deg F (I've got a ~25 deg F spread between my coolest (#1) and my hottest (#3)), and OTs ~220-230 deg F. The speeds I'm seeing give me between 3.5-4.2 inches of water pressure differential between the upper and lower baffles, measured from the top of the engine case and behind the oil cooler.


    Something interesting that I noticed on yesterday's flight was that the OT appears to be RPM related somehow. Looking back through my data I can see a trend as well, but nothing that I had noticed before. We were in cruise (2450 rpm, OT 230) and there was a headwind at 5,500 ft. So I nosed it over (changing nothing else but pitch trim and accepting the airspeed increase and ~2600 rpm it gave me) and started a descent to 3,500 ft. At about 4,000 ft I noticed that OT was heading up to 235, so I pushed the mixture in a bit. CHTs were below where they had been at 5,500, which makes sense because the cowl delta P would be higher from the increased airspeed. OT ended up peaking at 238 as I leveled off at 3,500 ft, so I pulled the RPM back to 2350 and readjusted the mixture to get CHTs from 315-340 and OT settled back out at 230 again. I'm not sure what would cause that.


    Oil looks good, breather bottle hasn't changed. There's a little more oil around the oil pan where the dipstick tube connects, but I don't think blow-by is the problem. I'm still going to do a hot automotive compression test to try and rule it out, but otherwise I think I'll be back to working on airflow.

  29. #69
    CamTom12's Avatar
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    Also got my oil analysis back - Iron, Aluminum, and Nickel were a little high, but nothing that they thought couldn't be attributed to some of the periods of inactivity that I had last year.

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