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Why don't we talk about accidents?

I normally don't have to talk to flight service or a tower so I usually just do call with type and tail number and let them come back to me. I flew out of Deadhourse for 4 days this summer and by the end I was a little smoother but not like the working pilots. A point for the new pilots. I try to add in if this is my first time or it has been a while since I have been to the runway. Things change, notams don't get posted, and crap happens so letting the tower, FSS and other pilots know you are new to the area gives them a chance to keep a closer eye on you.
DENNY
 
Don't know if this is the place to post but we lost a Cessna 182 a couple of miles from my house Thursday night with all 4 souls gone in heavy trees. The flight was from Boeing field to Port Angeles. Don't know the pilots ratings but we were driving home from Seatac, a holiday trip about 6:30 the time of the crash, and the night at that time was very dark, patchy fog to the ground here along with some winds. Weather radar for the time shows a squall right over our area. It sounds like he may have been talking to center as they called him missing? We used to lose one aircraft a year in my county but I don't recall any since GPS became popular. Maybe no fatals in 20-30 years? This was not the normal of running into our steep mountains. Sad.
 
DENNY said:
I normally don't have to talk to flight service or a tower so I usually just do call with type and tail number and let them come back to me. I flew out of Deadhourse for 4 days this summer and by the end I was a little smoother but not like the working pilots. A point for the new pilots. I try to add in if this is my first time or it has been a while since I have been to the runway. Things change, notams don't get posted, and crap happens so letting the tower, FSS and other pilots know you are new to the area gives them a chance to keep a closer eye on you.
DENNY
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Saying "unfamiliar" will not only tip off the controller that you don't know the local reporting points he is telling you to use, but tells the other pilots around to look out for you as you may not be following the normal "flow" they expect.
 
Not Super Cub related, but check the link below for the altitude/airspeed graph of a two month old CJ4 that crashed about 1.5 minutes after takeoff. Two adults and 4 teenagers perished. Still looking for the aircraft, and CVR's are optional. It was owner/pilot flown. No indication of pilots experience level. Departure was at 2257 after pilot, wife, and teens attended basketball game.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N614SB/history/20161230/0330Z/KBKL/KOSU/tracklog
 
mike mcs repair said:
yikes!

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Heavily-Drunk-Pilots-Arrested-228273-1.html
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Happens more often than you would think. Alcoholism among pilots has no different rate than the general population. If you are serving on a multi crew aircraft, and you suspect a crew member of being impaired, it is both your responsibility and a personal imperative that you take action to prohibit the suspected crew member from operating until the situation is clarified. There was a case about 20 years ago where a Captain was charged when he flew a leg with a co-pilot who was later found to be drunk even though the Captain had no suspicions. The Captain's certificate was suspended for 1 year. Equally so, as Part 91 pilots we need to be very careful about boarding passengers in our Super Cubs who are impaired mainly because you are seating someone at a control seat.
 
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mvivion said:
.....And, Hotrod, while the AIM is not regulatory, the procedures therein are considered "good practice" by the FAA. MTV
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Book learnin' is good, but as we all know real life often plays out a little differently.
As an ex-naval aviator friend of mine says, "you're in the fleet now, sonny!"
I was simply relating my experiences--
when they're busy, Navy Whidbey will often ignore an initial call-up if it's too long.
Whereas they will generally get back to you if you just say your tail number & "request".
Maybe you should tell them instead of me about AIM & what the FAA considers good practice.
 
GeeBee said:
Happens more often than you would think. Alcoholism among pilots has no different rate than the general population. If you are serving on a multi crew aircraft, and you suspect a crew member of being impaired, it is both your responsibility and a personal imperative that you take action to prohibit the suspected crew member from operating until the situation is clarified. There was a case about 20 years ago where a Captain was charged when he flew a leg with a co-pilot who was later found to be drunk even though the Captain had no suspicions. The Captain's certificate was suspended for 1 year. Equally so, as Part 91 pilots we need to be very careful about boarding passengers in our Super Cubs who are impaired mainly because you are seating someone at a control seat.
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I took the stick out the back, so can I be the designated driver?
 
An old mentor of mine almost lost the whole show with a drunk in the back seat of a part 135 flight. After a guy in the right seat tried to kill them both he started carrying a gun when giving instruction.
 
Long ago I was working as an A&P at a small airport when I would occasionally be called out of the shop to fly. This was before part 135 existed and "flight instructor" was still a rating on the pilot certificate. This time I was to fly a well dressed man from GBR to ALB in a TriPacer. I was to wait and bring him back. Along the way he pulled a flat bottle of brown liquid out of his suit coat pocket for a swig. Well one swig led to another. Eventually he offered me a swig which I of course refused. After a while he became more and more insistent that I take a drink attempting to pour it into my mouth. Then he decided that he would like to fly the plane. He turned the wheel to the right while I turned it to the left. This went on for a while until he pushed it forward. That got his attention! We landed at ALB, the engine was shut down, he exited the airplane, his shirt tail was untucked and his tie was askew as he wobbled across the ramp. I started the engine whereupon he turned back to the plane, so I shut it down. He told me that I was to wait for him. After he got inside the building, I started the engine and flew back to GBR. After a while A 172 dropped him off and I watched him go to his car.
 
What does Part 91 say about allowing intoxicated passengers aboard? In Part 121 it is a NO NO. Flight attendants are trained not to over serve and watch for signs of intoxication.

In my 21 years at AA I never saw an intoxicated pilot. I heard of it. We were told by the union to keep them from the airplane and have them call in sick. Professional standards,(union), would handle it without the FAA if possible.
 
Lefoy84 said:
In my 21 years at AA I never saw an intoxicated pilot. I heard of it. We were told by the union to keep them from the airplane and have them call in sick. Professional standards,(union), would handle it without the FAA if possible.
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My observation was that it was more prevalent among the WW2 crowd of pilots. Once they retired it became much more rare.
 
Lefoy84 said:
What does Part 91 say about allowing intoxicated passengers aboard? In Part 121 it is a NO NO. Flight attendants are trained not to over serve and watch for signs of intoxication.

In my 21 years at AA I never saw an intoxicated pilot. I heard of it. We were told by the union to keep them from the airplane and have them call in sick. Professional standards,(union), would handle it without the FAA if possible.
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FAR 91.17
a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft--
(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
(2) While under the influence of alcohol;
(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
[(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per 210 liters of breath.


By seating someone at a control seat, even if they are not licensed they can be charged under FAR 91.17 as attempting to act as a crew member. Equally so, you could be charged with careless and reckless or as a co conspirator to violate FAR 91.17. Conspiracy to commit is automatically a felony. A lot of this depends on the good graces of the FAA Counsel or the US Attorney, neither of which I wish to depend upon their grace, let alone their goodness.

As to FAR 121 ops. Even if Professional Standards handled it, the FAA would have to be involved. Because the qualifications to hold a medical certificate have just been violated. Simply put, it would be professional malpractice to not send the individual involved to rehab and that would trigger a HIMS protocol. Anyone who drinks to such and extent they are unfit for duty within the prescribed time period is a functional alcoholic.



 
I don't see how you can be an airline pilot these days an not be an alcoholic. It's crazy out there.
 
Any news report of alcohol and aviation is a black eye for all of us. Doesn't matter if private GA or Commercial operation. We don't need publicity like that . Many will paint us all with the same brush. I was Professional Standards Captain for many years. Dealing with situations where ones career could end is not fun but necessary. The worst I've had to do personally on my crew was pull my Engineer and F/O out of several dives in the far east so they would not be illegal on the next departure. We were able to defend a few guys and get them probation and beer school but the saddest one I had to review was the senior captain that was caught with vodka in his coffee cup during ground school. He got fired. Almost can't blame him, it was during those canned training films that all airlines use.
 
I remember a joke from a "drunken airline pilots" news story years ago....

Q: how many pilots does it take to fly an America West jet?
A: two and a fifth
 
I will tell you there are about 15 things from this article that are deeply disturbing.

Why did security let him anywhere near the airplane despite their misgivings?

Why did other company personnel let him near the airplane?

This one is very disturbing, why are you Canadians allowing foreign pilots to man Canadian flagged aircraft? Are you now giving away your jobs too?
 
txpacer said:
I don't see how you can be an airline pilot these days an not be an alcoholic. It's crazy out there.
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I sure dont miss it. Flying fighters is another story. We need a geriatric Air Force.

Every time this happens it sullies us all. I was once involved in a minor fender bender while going to work at AA. The other driver accused me of being drunk. I was in partial uniform.

When I remarked that I was going to fly a trip, the officer remarked, "that doesnt mean anything." Making a snide reference to this sort of thing. Those pilots should never fly again. They cheapen a noble profession.
 
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Jumping to conclusions as to what happened in the mid air between a Cherokee and Luscombe over the weekend in Texas is not wise. Three dead. Near an uncontrolled airport.

Non pilot witnesses are notoriously inconsistent. "One plane "slid" into the other?"

It was near T31, not GYI.

Theorizing now before the facts is foolhardy.
 
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No conclusions jumped to here, Lefoy. Merely reporting what reliable pilot witnesses have told me. That's what "or so it has been reported" means.
 
Seems to me that you have already solved it. The interloper caused the midair. Were the witnesses at GYI?

Type of "guilty" aircraft?
 
Lefoy84 said:
Jumping to conclusions as to what happened in the mid air between a Cherokee and Luscombe over the weekend in Texas is not wise. Three dead. Near an uncontrolled airport.

Non pilot witnesses are notoriously inconsistent. "One plane "slid" into the other?"

It was near T31, GYI.

Theorizing now before the facts is foolhardy.
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And that's why we don't talk about 'em.
 
we had a bad one here at Spruce Creek---several contributing factors---EPIC-LT---slippery aircraft---pilot witness said he came out of the fog in "knife edge"---heavy hearts at the Creek---Capt Cub
 
Lefoy, get back on your meds, man.:smile:

No one, especially myself, has drawn conclusions about what caused 3 people to die in a preventable accident. You have no way of getting into my thought process and determining that I have already drawn conclusions. Look at the thread title, try to divorce yourself from the Professional Standards Committee concept of the pilot is never wrong, and contribute to the discussion. Would you have us not even mention accidents, except in very generic terms?

One of the pilots was a QB at the GYI hangar. My ID's got mixed up.
 
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