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Thread: Pa-12 Flaps Not retracting

  1. #1
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Pa-12 Flaps Not retracting

    Hello Gentlemen. I just landed on my second to last leg of a long cross country from picking up my plane which is a PA-12. My question is that on the turn to the right turn to final the CFI/ Ferry pilot i was flying it up with (which is an entirely different story) basically tried to pull the flap handle off the side of the fusalage.

    When we landed the flaps wont retract the last degree. Peeked through all the inspection plates and didnt find anything glaring, the three notches cycle fine, but are no where close to nuetral or negative.

    any help is appreciated.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    phdigger123's Avatar
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    Cable slipped in nicopress sleeve.

  3. #3
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Well looking at it through the inspection plates both push rods are bent. Could force of an old guy pulling and grunting on the flap handle at 80kts bend those?

    If they are bent, that loss of length could be what's not allowing them to retract?


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  4. #4
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Max flap speed is less than 80 kt..... fwiw
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  5. #5
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    rear pulley mount weld is ripping out of tube would be my guess??? but that would be opposite issue, hmmm fixed 3 of those that failed... hmmm

    attach brackets on flap spars still in right place? no sheared rivets??

    flap cable hooked over object behind interior panel??(longer route)

    flap springs deformed/stretched?? flaps rubbing on wing???

    something blocking flap actuator up stop on spar???

  6. #6
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    bolt/cable at/on actuator in wing connecting plates to tight/binding/rotating and hitting spar/stop in up position???

  7. #7
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    pictures of bell crank, in retracted position, in relation to spar please....

  8. #8
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    The brown rod is in this picture, I call it a push rod, don't know if it's the right name or not.
    But they are bent on bot sides. They still actuate in all three degrees. Smooth free and clear.

  9. #9
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Pic example of what's bent and then the position the flaps are resting at.

    Again the scenerio, was right base ... 80+ kts the into right final.

    Pumped the flaps from first to the full extension past the third notch, +5-10kt. Headwind.

    The feedback is definitely appreciated for a newb such as myself.
    I felt like I was dying a little watching this clown abuse my new baby. Now it's tied down 100 miles away from its hanger.


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  10. #10
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    scary!!! lock nuts not jammed !!!!!

    don't fly that thing!! till inspection by someone who knows BASICS!!!!

  11. #11
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    scary... inspect whole plane before flight!!!

    whoever put it together is idiot!!! how can they not lock jamb nuts???? (first picture) or is that just an example picture of another plane???

  12. #12
    aktango58's Avatar
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    When you lightly push up on the flaps do they come into cruise position? Or are they jammed in place at that point?

    One thing that is telling is if both are doing the same thing, that means it is probably in the flap handle cabin area. If they are split that would seem more like an individual wing point.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  13. #13
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    flap cable turnbuckles not installed in proper position on cable and hung up on wing rib diagonal braces??

  14. #14
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Both doing the same thing.

    I parted the notch piece from the handle, and still smooth operating , in sync, just not retracting.

    And what do you mean by not locking jam nuts macs?


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  15. #15
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Basically I have to push them into the neutral position.


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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    And what do you mean by not locking jam nuts macs?


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    first picture, rod jam nut not locked.... but is that YOUR picture or just example picture...???

    we NEED YOUR picture of YOURS in retracted position!

  17. #17
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    Basically I have to push them into the neutral position.


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    return spring has stretched(not from deployment) or flap is rubbing wing....

  18. #18
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Ahhhhh I know, I didn't take one! The pic is an example. The rod is what's bent.


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  19. #19
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    So in the wisdom of the order of Supercub.org and the flying family thereof.
    The has anyone bent the push rod in their flaps by over extending them at over operating speed.

    IF ... That occurred (which it did), and the push rods were bent, could the resulting loss of length in the rod ( because of the bend) be what's holding the flaps down? I am not a mechanic, it seems logical thinking through the scenario and outcome?

    If so what's the proper name for the rods so I can get some ordered, and any pointers installing them in a covered wing?

    I will send pictures through the inspection plates tomorrow


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  20. #20
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    So in the wisdom of the order of Supercub.org and the flying family thereof.
    The has anyone bent the push rod in their flaps by over extending them at over operating speed.

    IF ... That occurred (which it did), and the push rods were bent, could the resulting loss of length in the rod ( because of the bend) be what's holding the flaps down? I am not a mechanic, it seems logical thinking through the scenario and outcome?

    If so what's the proper name for the rods so I can get some ordered, and any pointers installing them in a covered wing?

    I will send pictures through the inspection plates tomorrow


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    Respectfully, you are into the realm of mechanic required.

    I might suggest you find a person with the proper experience/credentials to continue your research and repair; even if only to supervise

    Be careful in that area, split flaps are much worse than no flaps.

    12s flew for years without flaps.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  21. #21
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    That's the plan, i respect the limits and know mine, thank you and I will update the thread as I find out out more. but my new grounded bird from an ass hat hired to fly it and teach me is what sucks. I don't want to say it was intentionally but it is sure as **** wasn't respectful. Name:  IMG_3179.JPG
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  22. #22

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    Cable tension pulls the flaps down. In the absence of cable tension independent springs pull the flaps up. Generally speaking if your flaps remain partially deployed because of a cable/pushrod/bell crank adjustment issue you can't easily lift them to the retracted position by hand. If they droop and offer no resistance to retracting them with easy pressure from your fingers you likely just need more return spring tension. That's a familiar topic for a few of us.

    It's hard to believe 80mph flap deployment would cause any damage to the system. Lord knows a few of us have wondered why our planes were cruising slow when we're realized our flaps were still out. No damage when I've done it.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-04-2016 at 06:54 AM.

  23. #23
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    ..

    It's hard to believe 80mph flap deployment would cause any damage to the system. ..
    that was my thought too, must be old wind damage or such.... just coincidently just noticed now.....

    I bet cable is hung up around something behind interior panels...

  24. #24
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Found a bent flap rod on a Maule recently. It is a shorter version of the Piper flap actuation rod. Also seen the inboard flap hinge that is riveted to the flap hang up on the wing flap hinge where the aluminum hinge block rivets the the steel u channel part of the hinge. There is suppose to be a washer between the two.
    Steve Pierce

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  25. #25
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    That's the plan, i respect the limits and know mine, thank you and I will update the thread as I find out out more. but my new grounded bird from an ass hat hired to fly it and teach me is what sucks. I don't want to say it was intentionally but it is sure as **** wasn't respectful. Name:  IMG_3179.JPG
Views: 406
Size:  68.1 KB


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    This is a good reminder for folks looking for instruction and/or ferry flights.....always ask for references and do a bit of background investigation prior to contracting someone to teach you or ferry your airplane.

    Sorry you had problems,

    MTV

  26. #26
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    I think I've got it figured out, pictures to follow shortly


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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    This is a good reminder for folks looking for instruction and/or ferry flights.....always ask for references and do a bit of background investigation prior to contracting someone to teach you or ferry your airplane.

    Sorry you had problems,

    MTV
    Why I have lost all patients or empathy for those that look for the cheapest pilot to ferry their plane, or instructor to teach them or get a biannual.

    That being said, it is very possible that the failure in this instance was not caused by poor flying, but by fatigue of an old airframe. Best to determine cause before blame.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  28. #28
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Lesson is has been learned and will executed in the future. I appreciate all the advice.

    So going through the system making sure springs, pulleys and arms are secured and functioning as they should. Even so much as to listen for any sound of rubbing when actuating the flaps.

    Everything was in working order.Click image for larger version. 

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    I back tracked to the fuel valve selector cover and pulled it. The flap handle ear that connects to the cable was bent up. Noted in the pictures below. Click image for larger version. 

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    So the amount of force exerted from the pumping/strong arming bent the ear connecting to the cable up 180 degrees. Name:  IMG_3221.JPG
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    That's what it should look like Lol.


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  29. #29
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    i don't think thats bent... looks like it was done earlier or intentionally.....

    picture of bend please, is paint cracked off?

    the picture of -18 handle you show may not be the same as yours....

    a -12 with float brace can make it fun to get a good actuation/interference solved

  30. #30
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    another example of one of the MANY different(home made) flap handle installs in a -12

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...ods-Difficulty

  31. #31
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Can I pass blame now?lol JK , I hired him so I get to own it.

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    Flaps are covered under older day/night field approval from 77 i believe. So if anyone has any recommendations as to fabricating a new one I'm open to suggestions. Or am I allowed to scarf off the old tab and weld a new one and reassemble? Seems straight forward enough. Is it necessary to have an AP sign off on it ?
    Materials?

    And thanks for the help troubleshooting everyone, it's greatly appreciated...if anyone needs suggestions on who not to use as a ferry/ CFI message me.


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  32. #32
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    but.... the direction it bent, i wouldn't think could hold your flaps DOWN at rest, it would loosen cable.... ??? allowing them to go up fine and have LESS down travel....

    picture of bottom of bend please

    the forces are not in that direction to bend it that way in use....

  33. #33
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    you could just fly it without that... most -12s came with no flaps... to get it home....

  34. #34
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    If the that is bent was full length then it would allow for the flaps to retract to even the negative setting. I found this out when I reattached the springs to the bell housing.


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  35. #35
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    that was purposely bent before painting the red on....

    you are barking up the wrong tree...

  36. #36
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    Flaps are covered under older day/night field approval
    ya their STC is funky too.... they got some FAA person to the strip club(s) or laid..... lots left to "Interpret" when doing those installs..

  37. #37
    Nodak33's Avatar
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    Please tell me what tree to bark up then.
    What is the purpose in bending it?


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  38. #38
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    Do by chance have any diagrams of their STC to see what could possibly be lingering, and for what it's worth there is fresh paint off in the creases of the bend. That what makes it look fresh, and plus as soon as the handle was disconnected they snapped right up.


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  39. #39
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post

    What is the purpose in bending it?


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    you'd have to ask the original installer... my guess is to miss the float tube??? maybe

    Pa-12 flap installs are all weird/different compromises I've seen.....

    the long flap day & night STC even has you BEND the flap hangers up to 20? degrees to let them use the wrong side(twist) -18 AILERON as a flap on opposite wing.... way funky stuff....

  40. #40
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodak33 View Post
    Do by chance have any diagrams of their STC to see what could possibly be lingering, and for what it's worth there is fresh paint off in the creases of the bend. That what makes it look fresh, and plus as soon as the handle was disconnected they snapped right up.


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    i assume the pulley the cable goes in after the flap handle is in normal place ABOVE & behind handle PIVOT on the diagonal to rear, hence that bend you accuse makes cable get LOOSER, not TIGHTER as you are eluding to....

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