D.A.'s Back Burner Bushmaster Build
- Thread starter D.A.
- Start date
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
I took a tape measure last night when I finally got everything home and in the hangar and although I may have been suffering from sleep deprivation (Over 40 hours between getting up Friday morning and laying my head back on a pillow Saturday night), the "Cabin - Now cargo area" measures just over 8' from the firewall to the aft baggage wall. So that answers that question, at least for me, that full length 8' long building material will fit inside the cabin area. I'll add scuff plates to the area behind the firewall, the aft baggage aft wall and against the R/H cabin wall so 8' items can be loaded in without damaging the surrounding structure.
That brings up another point, that pretty much eliminates the idea of a centered pilot position - BUMMER... I really liked the idea of flying from the center with a stick, but I don't want to minimize the width of the cargo area on the R/H side. So that also eliminates the idea of a stick altogether. I could still put a stick in on the L/H side, but the airplane is already set up for L/H controls. Why just add another fabrication process when I can accomplish the mission already. I'm also a dyed in the wool heel brake guy. Heel brakes just seem the natural way to go and I'm most at home with them, but again, the airplane is already set up with a rudder pedal system and I can just add toe brake pedals to the existing rudder bar and add mount tabs for the master cylinders and call it good. I'll probably have to move the assembly back a little to clear the M/C's from the firewall, but by using the original rudder pedal bar, I can retain the rudder cable routing as well. The pedals are too close to run the traditional Scott M/C's or any of the piston type retrofits that copy the geometry. That being said, I could swear I've seen a picture of a dual heel brake assembly somewhere that is actually fairly narrow. Two non-reservoir M/C's side by side laying down with 2 heel brake pedals very close to each other. Have any of you seen what I'm talking about? If I remember correctly, it was a nice looking all gold anodized unit. That might be even easier if I can find that. I could keep the existing narrow mounted rudder pedals and still have heel brakes. Please post a link or company name if you're familiar with the unit I'm talking about.
Also, it looks like my desire to have stock SC struts on this airplane isn't going to work either. I can re-truss the lower longeron/strut attach area to have the same geometry as a SC, but the cabin depth is different between a TP and a SC. So one side of the triangle is off between the TP and SC. Bummer again. That being said, I want to be able to run stock type SC wings (Externally cabled as opposed to internally cabled or PA-14 wings) so I still plan, at this point, to run the lower cables up the strut like a Cub.
I have a lot of organizing and rearranging to do in the hangar before I actually start cutting and pasting, but at least the plan is maturing.
That brings up another point, that pretty much eliminates the idea of a centered pilot position - BUMMER... I really liked the idea of flying from the center with a stick, but I don't want to minimize the width of the cargo area on the R/H side. So that also eliminates the idea of a stick altogether. I could still put a stick in on the L/H side, but the airplane is already set up for L/H controls. Why just add another fabrication process when I can accomplish the mission already. I'm also a dyed in the wool heel brake guy. Heel brakes just seem the natural way to go and I'm most at home with them, but again, the airplane is already set up with a rudder pedal system and I can just add toe brake pedals to the existing rudder bar and add mount tabs for the master cylinders and call it good. I'll probably have to move the assembly back a little to clear the M/C's from the firewall, but by using the original rudder pedal bar, I can retain the rudder cable routing as well. The pedals are too close to run the traditional Scott M/C's or any of the piston type retrofits that copy the geometry. That being said, I could swear I've seen a picture of a dual heel brake assembly somewhere that is actually fairly narrow. Two non-reservoir M/C's side by side laying down with 2 heel brake pedals very close to each other. Have any of you seen what I'm talking about? If I remember correctly, it was a nice looking all gold anodized unit. That might be even easier if I can find that. I could keep the existing narrow mounted rudder pedals and still have heel brakes. Please post a link or company name if you're familiar with the unit I'm talking about.
Also, it looks like my desire to have stock SC struts on this airplane isn't going to work either. I can re-truss the lower longeron/strut attach area to have the same geometry as a SC, but the cabin depth is different between a TP and a SC. So one side of the triangle is off between the TP and SC. Bummer again. That being said, I want to be able to run stock type SC wings (Externally cabled as opposed to internally cabled or PA-14 wings) so I still plan, at this point, to run the lower cables up the strut like a Cub.
I have a lot of organizing and rearranging to do in the hangar before I actually start cutting and pasting, but at least the plan is maturing.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
In regard to your question on the billet axles I have seen a set of those but don't know who makes 'em. I know you are already a customer of super 12 Steve and I have bought an excellent set of axles from him in the past. As far as using cub wings and cable runs the cable routing from the existing yoke probably wouldn't be that hard. Adding a torque tube stick arrangement and heel brakes would take time and the stick would be an obstacle in the floor. In my mind I always thought if I built a super pacer type airplane I would make the fuselage from the strut attach to tail post measurement ~166" and full span cub wings. Many years ago Jim Richmond did a small write up on a wag 2+2 in the Super Cub Pilots newsletter(anybody remember those?) with a picture of the airplane full of lumber, generator etc. Just enough room for the pilot to sit on the left and looking like he wanted to build that cabin in one trip. That made me a fan of the "big" cub type airplane. Other pilots prefer to sit on center with a narrow fuselage. Tool Time Tim still has the coolest cub on this forum in my opinion. Experimental category is great. Look forward to your project reports.
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Currently it has no brakes at all so I’ll be into a fabrication project either way. I can put toe brakes on the existing rudder pedals but I believe I’ll have to move the assembly back away from the firewall. I found pictures of the narrow geometry heel brakes I was thinking of, but it looks like its from a company that supports ultralight type aircraft http://www.hegar4.com/zc150/index.p...id=189&zenid=a2ba54724cab6d21181362244616ead7 . I’m leaning toward adapting toe brakes to the existing rudder bar. This looks like the simplest way without a lot of wheel reinventing http://www.macsmachine.com/images/controllinkages/full/sidcyl.gif
EXACTLY
PA18project
Registered User
Missoula MT
This thread brings back memories from almost 8 years ago. Toe brakes or heel brakes, sticks or yokes, supercub wings or something else, etc.
I built three sets of dual sticks with the plan of running the cables externally like you plan. It can be done but I decided it was too much imagineering for my likes. I stayed with the yokes.
I built custom toe brakes and would be happy to give you the geometry. The rudder bar moved aft though to make it work and I welded brackets onto the fuselage to install Matco masters with remote a remove reservoir on the firewall. I built a new rudder bar but I made the jig from the old one. I welded tabs onto that bar for the toe brakes. I originally had the master cylinders with integral reservoirs but decided I didn't want to be under the panel adding fluid. Hence the remote reservoir.
I went with modified "modified" PA-12 wings. The PA-12 plans I used had 8 foot flaps and ailerons. Internal cables. I would do this again for the simple reason that I could use existing pulley mounting and running the cables wasn't a big deal. I used a combination of PA-18 and PA-22 style parts when fabricating the flap and aileron actuation assemblies. Center push rod for the flaps (three hinges). Short PA-18 style aileron side hinge for more responsiveness on the ailerons.
I was able to install PA-18 forward gear fittings on my fuselage and I built a custom (OK, three again) cabane. Custom gear and custom shock struts. I also built the shock absorbers but that part really doesn't matter. With the shock absorbers you can do bungees, hydrasorb, AOSS, what I did, or something totally different. I had to build custom safety cables since nobody makes them for this aircraft.
I need to dig up the strut attach fitting angle and a few other unique items for you. I will post them when I do so others have them. I did a lot of head scratching on my project that was unnecessary so hopefully I can save you some time.
I built three sets of dual sticks with the plan of running the cables externally like you plan. It can be done but I decided it was too much imagineering for my likes. I stayed with the yokes.
I built custom toe brakes and would be happy to give you the geometry. The rudder bar moved aft though to make it work and I welded brackets onto the fuselage to install Matco masters with remote a remove reservoir on the firewall. I built a new rudder bar but I made the jig from the old one. I welded tabs onto that bar for the toe brakes. I originally had the master cylinders with integral reservoirs but decided I didn't want to be under the panel adding fluid. Hence the remote reservoir.
I went with modified "modified" PA-12 wings. The PA-12 plans I used had 8 foot flaps and ailerons. Internal cables. I would do this again for the simple reason that I could use existing pulley mounting and running the cables wasn't a big deal. I used a combination of PA-18 and PA-22 style parts when fabricating the flap and aileron actuation assemblies. Center push rod for the flaps (three hinges). Short PA-18 style aileron side hinge for more responsiveness on the ailerons.
I was able to install PA-18 forward gear fittings on my fuselage and I built a custom (OK, three again) cabane. Custom gear and custom shock struts. I also built the shock absorbers but that part really doesn't matter. With the shock absorbers you can do bungees, hydrasorb, AOSS, what I did, or something totally different. I had to build custom safety cables since nobody makes them for this aircraft.
I need to dig up the strut attach fitting angle and a few other unique items for you. I will post them when I do so others have them. I did a lot of head scratching on my project that was unnecessary so hopefully I can save you some time.
Last edited:
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I'll accept the sleep deprivation thought. Are all of your available 8' pieces of building materiel exactly 8' long? Or is some of it 8'-1/8"? How thick is your scuff plate on the firewall? Is there any structural tubing behind the firewall? It sounds to me as though you will need a shoe horn to load your cargo and perhaps a saw to get it out.
Are you a long legged person like me? I find toe brakes on a Clipper/Pacer to take up too much space pushing the pedals back cutting into my leg room. This in turn will cut into cargo space behind the seat. Give some thought to placing the master cylinders under the floor with the heel pedals sticking straight up through the floor. The standard Scott Cub master cylinders or any of the high pressure versions can be turned 90 degrees with the pedal straight up. Tie these to a remote reservoir for convenience. I did this in a cabin Waco. Worked just fine.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
FWIW there was a homebuilt design called the V6 STOL which was basically a stretched Pacer. Might be worthwhile to get a set of those plans & builder's manual to see how they went about it. I think a buddy of mine has a set I could probably get photocopied. But it sounds to me like a very involved & time consuming project, which is great, if you like to build (rather than fly). I'd prefer to fly (rather than build). What I'd look into doing, if it was mine, is doing a standard length Pacer build, only registering it as an experimental-amateur built. You can buy (or build the equivalent to) standard PA20 gear legs, standard PA20 toe brake rudder pedals, Dakota Super-20 slotted wings, larger tailfeathers, etc. Unless you're certain to need the lumber-hauling abilities, seems like that'd be a lot easier to build and maybe even more fun to fly.
PA18project
Registered User
Missoula MT
I have the Blanton plans and my suggestion would be that, while extremely interesting, they might not be the best way to go about building one of these planes. I don't want to offend anyone and I have seen some of the Planes and they are nice planes but some of what Blanton proposes, doesn't appear to comply with the current regs for experimental amateur built.
Unfortunately I don't think there are any plans out there for these planes other than Blanton's though. For mine I toggled between PA-20, PA-18, PA-12and PA-14 plans which is a pain at times. The nice thing about each of those designs though is that there is quite a bit of uniformity in each of those planes.
It will be fun watching this thread as D.A. moves through his build.
With regard to hauling lumber, I know of at least three bushmasters where the builders extended the baggage compartment one additional bay (maybe another two feet approximately) aft. That makes for a cavernous baggage compartment. I don't know exactly how they load these planes to keep them in W&B but I do know they exist. In mine I kept the baggage compartment identical to a pacer but I did put a fishing pole tube/box at floor level for longer items. I decided the baggage was big enough for me and I didn't want the option of being able to easily load the plane outside the W&B limits. That being stated, I didn't plan on putting lumber in the plane. I did install mounting points for a lumber rack, belly pod, etc. though which might be another way to go about hauling lumber.
Unfortunately I don't think there are any plans out there for these planes other than Blanton's though. For mine I toggled between PA-20, PA-18, PA-12and PA-14 plans which is a pain at times. The nice thing about each of those designs though is that there is quite a bit of uniformity in each of those planes.
It will be fun watching this thread as D.A. moves through his build.
With regard to hauling lumber, I know of at least three bushmasters where the builders extended the baggage compartment one additional bay (maybe another two feet approximately) aft. That makes for a cavernous baggage compartment. I don't know exactly how they load these planes to keep them in W&B but I do know they exist. In mine I kept the baggage compartment identical to a pacer but I did put a fishing pole tube/box at floor level for longer items. I decided the baggage was big enough for me and I didn't want the option of being able to easily load the plane outside the W&B limits. That being stated, I didn't plan on putting lumber in the plane. I did install mounting points for a lumber rack, belly pod, etc. though which might be another way to go about hauling lumber.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
There's not a lot of useful info on Blanton's V6 STOL plans that would help a project like this,actually probably nothing. There were a lot of those plans sold but not very many of them built. There is a reason for that. My opinion. There are builders and there are non builders, good thing for the builders or the non builders wouldn't get to fly anything but certified airplanes and never get to fly high performance airplanes built for a purpose.
Airwrench
PATRON
Anchorage, AK
..................And why there aren't any plans out there for the Producer.
D.A. Go with the Cub wings. Add another baggage door - Its tricky getting long stuff in. Toe brakes are an easy install but you do lose some leg room. - Steve
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
I’m know I was tired, but there’s actually MORE than 8’ of space. I measured from about 8” or 10” above the floor, the same level as the internal hydrasorb structure all the way back to the rear baggage rear bulkhead. In fact, the rear bulkhead is sloping up and rearward as it goes upward so you get even more room the further up you go.
The sheet metal firewall is actually removed currently, I was measuring from behind the firewall tubing.
No, as I said earlier in this thread, I want to create a door further aft behind the baggage area to load the full length material through. Once I get it in the cabin I can then position it up against the scuff plates and secure it down.
That’s what I had in mind at first and I may end up doing just that, thanks.
Come on man – Chill out a little;-). I’ll throw a 2X4X8 in there and take a picture, but I’m tell’n ‘ya, it’ll fit easy. AND, a lot of the load is in the cabin rather than piled in the baggage area and aft.
Thanks for your input.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
Here is my version of Piper brake pedals. Easy to make and I like the geometry too. If you do decide on a stick a clipper type would not obstruct the floor. I built my own version of that too. 
The torque tube isn't finished yet lacking the bell crank.
Sorry my post is all jumbled up, I'm lucky I can even post pictures.
The torque tube isn't finished yet lacking the bell crank.Sorry my post is all jumbled up, I'm lucky I can even post pictures.Attachments
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Good looking work my friend.
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Thanks Steve
I am also very serious about building a stretch 20-22 . Just like D.A. I was wanting it to be a tandem but was going to use it for a camper (sleeping in large cargo bay) rather than a freighter.I want to run some of my ideas by everyone to see if they will work before i purchase a donor airframe, so here goes. First put a tunnel down the center of the floorboards to enclose the torque tube, for rear seat heat, and house the rudder cables I will explain in a minute. I would indent the firewall from the aft side to allow for toe brake cylinders if the engine mount will allow. The rudder pedals are different in that they have a torque tube on them that allows them to run the rudder cables down the center of the floorboard than the outside they will look somewhat like heel brake pedal only swapped left to right. With that understood the copilot rudder pedals attach to the rudder cables with a chain and cable clamps which allow them to work but fold aft on the floor when not in use ( SUPER CHUB from Colorado has them in his ac). I think the copilot pedals could fold backwards into a pocket where they would be flush with the floorboards. The fuse would have a left pilots door, but would combine the rear door with the cargo door to make a HUGE cargo opening similar to a Maule as I am told that the early Maule fuse was modeled after a 20-22. I already have a set of 12 wings and lift struts so I hope this will work with the mod to the lift strut fittings Please tell me if this would work before I buy something
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
Dukeair, all those ideas are doable but if you want to make an area for sleeping remember the pacer/tri pacer have the gear truss spanning the forward seat area. A good reference to make a sleeping/cargo area are in the wag aero wag a bond plans. I have put a cub type torque tube in a wag 2+2 for a guy many years ago. I had to replicate the PA12/14 cabe runs. (The wag 2+2 has a weird and awkward torque tube the clogs up floor space.) If you use the 12 wings you may want to look into gross wt increase mode they use on the 18 for spar beef up. Sorry I don't have any pics of the mods, this was done pre digital and long before I knew I was going to be an internet troll.
Thanks for the input, I forgot to tell about my idea to put a 'CUB' style gear in like "Airwrench's" plane therefore I would remove the gear truss in the floor. My real concern is where to section the fuse as I can get Blanton plans, but an not sure that is the best place to cut the fuse. I want the "cut " to be in the best place to provide the most cargo space with the least amount of fairing and still l
have good lines. An after thought is to install a LARGE header fuel tank above the rudder pedals that can be turned on and off to be used as ballast to correct the load cg. I do not want to hi-jack this thread but it would appear that a lot of tubing will be removed leaving weld residue, so the question is what is the tool of choice to dress these welds down without surrounding damage and how much weld should be left on the permanent tubing not to weaken it
have good lines. An after thought is to install a LARGE header fuel tank above the rudder pedals that can be turned on and off to be used as ballast to correct the load cg. I do not want to hi-jack this thread but it would appear that a lot of tubing will be removed leaving weld residue, so the question is what is the tool of choice to dress these welds down without surrounding damage and how much weld should be left on the permanent tubing not to weaken it
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Buddy, don't worry about that at all. This is a great place to post ideas and get input for all of us.
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Well, here's what I was talking about. I took an 8' 2X4 and it fits inside the cabin. The masking tape on the left side rear fuselage represents a material loading door that can be added. The masking tape at the firewall represents a scuff plate. The bottom 8 footer just clears the baggage compartment rear bulkhead and that clearance increases as the pile gets higher because the bulkhead (Tubing) is moving aft as it moves upward. I think thats another advantage of a SP because you're load is closer to the CG rather than packing an extended baggage way back in the fuselage like a SC.
Attachments
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
I did some studying of the fuselage drawings between the 22/20 and the -18 and if my math is correct, the SC is about 22" longer than the 22/20 when measured from the aft spar attach fitting and the 22/20 nose is 9.375" shorter than the -18 when measured from the FWD spar attach fitting. I'm probably going to do a 22" stretch and I haven't decided how long to make the engine mount yet. There are many options for engine mounts, its my understanding that a Maule mount bolts right onto the 22/20 firewall and is 9" longer which would match it up to geometry of where it would be on a SC. Many have used the stock 22/20 engine placement as well and there are numerous examples of mounts out there in between stock and Maule length.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
If you are an EAA member check out Sport Aviation archives may 2003 and look at the article written on Dakota Cub's Super Pacer. Looks like an ideal aerial pick up truck.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
I have an old (jan 1996) issue of "Sport Pilot" magazine (this was before LSA/ sport pilot, the magazine was about homebuilts). This issue has an article about the Merlin Explorer-- a 4-place kitplane which greatly resembles a modified Pacer. The photos show it with "Explorer Merlin Aircraft" painted on the side, but if you google the tail number N7156Y it comes up as a Bushmaster built by Rick Schneider. The article explains that Merlin (of Muskegon MI) was working with Schneider to develop an easy-to-built kitplane based on the Bushmaster. Unfortunately it never went anywhere, in fact Merlin also had a 2-place kitplane which apparently fizzled out also.
Just googled Merlin kitplane, here's one of the results. http://home.comcast.net/~dandreat/explore1.htm
Same airplane I'm talking about.
Just googled Merlin kitplane, here's one of the results. http://home.comcast.net/~dandreat/explore1.htm
Same airplane I'm talking about.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
I remember seeing that Bushmaster airplane at Oshkosh a long time ago. I was standing next to the runway when it took off with the Mazda rotary engine, my ears are still ringing.
D.A.
FRIEND
Free America
Just bought it off of Ebay. I remember that plane too, it ran the prop off a huge Gates belt like the Gershwender (Spl) prop reductions. If I remember correctly, wasn't that airplane involved in some kind of claim to be running off of tap water rather than gasoline?
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Were these the stock Piper pedals or the aftermarket aluminum pedals?
