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D.A.'s Back Burner Bushmaster Build

D.A.

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Free America
I’m going to call this my “Back Burner Bushmaster Build”. It’s a back burner project because I’ve got many things with higher priorities in front of it. However, I do want to PLAY with it from time to time and I’ll post progress as it happens.
I’m also going to post WHY I’m building a Stretched Pacer, and WHAT I INTEND to do with it. The quickest way to clear a cocktail party of Super Cub guys is to say you’re going to build a Stretched Pacer. You can do almost anything to a SC but mention a Stretched Pacer and its GAME ON.
Why am I building a SP? I worked in Dillingham during the summer of 1982. While waiting for a flight in Anchorage one evening, I saw Steve Bryant flying his Producer. In 1982, I had no idea that guys were stretching the PA22/20 even though Jake Bryant did the first one in the 50’s. There was a cop with a radar gun checking his speed each time on short final. There wasn’t any wind and the radar showed 32 MPH. Once I figured out what the heck it was, I thought that was the coolest answer to the restricted cargo space of a SC.
I’m a dyed in the wool SC guy, but there are purposes where I’d like more cargo space. It really doesn’t matter whether you’ve got a 4” wider cabin, or a PA14, or whatever, there still isn’t a lot of room in a Cub type. With a Pacer, the cabin is set up completely differently, and you have large doors on both sides. With a Tri Pacer, you have an additional baggage door at the right rear. Unless I’m mistaken, I don’t think the original Pacers have that baggage door although I could be wrong. A PA14 is a 4 place ragwing Piper and a PA22/20 is a 4 place ragwing Piper but the PA22/20 just SEEMS like more of a cargo plane than any of the Cub line.
What do I intend to use it for? I want to use it as a single place, single control remote country camping/hunting/building cargo plane based on Super Cub components. I’m thinking about flying it from a centered position with a stick, but it would be a LOT easier to just keep the left hand pilot seat and control wheel, we’ll see. The right hand seat can be made to be easily removable when you need to carry a passenger or a jump seat can be built for the cargo area if I go with a centered pilot position. I want to be able to carry full length 8’ building material inside the cabin so I intend to build hatch doors in the aft fuselage and possibly the bootcowl to help load the long material. I’ll run airline style seat tracks on the floor and on several positions on the sidewalls to tie down cargo and I’ll probably sew a cargo net together that clips into positions on the floor, walls and ceiling to isolate the cargo area from the pilot.
I’m also going to do a little re-trussing so that stock geometry SC parts can be used like gear and struts. I’ll also run the aileron cables up the struts so stock SC wings can be used. The SC tail feathers already bolt on to a Pacer. With that in mind, there shouldn’t be any custom fabricated parts except for the cabane vee. If I’m out having fun and end up having a little bit too much fun, all the parts are either stock SC or PA22/20 parts that should be available off the shelf.
I just made a deal for the remains of a Tri Pacer project and I’ll start taking pictures when I get it home.
Input always welcome.
 
If the idea is to carry bulk cargo, then you might consider having the pilot's folding seat on the right next to the door so that you have easy access without climbing over the pile. Also having a removable stick may be more convenient than a control wheel for cargo loading purposes. Don't forget to have a good positive safety for the stick.
 
Did that 20 years ago. Mine had 37' wingspan, 200 hp lyc, constant speed and weighed 1194 empty. Would haul all you could fit in it and on it.
 
Did that 20 years ago...
I remember yours Don, that was the sharpest stretched pacer I've ever seen, really well done! I guess I was a week late on the TP project you had on Barnstormers... Please chime in with any input as this project progresses.
 
Doors both side and front that fold up against the wing. Install a cub type gear with external bungees and get rid of the truss under the seat install a cup tight gear with sexual bungee is and get red of the process under the seat. I like the control yokes because you don't have to climb over or around them. Ditch the rear baggage door because the back seat door gives plenty of access and you can save some weight. Sometimes I wish I had Old Yeller back. My little cub just isn't the workhorse that the yellow plan was.
 
PACERS RULE!!!
I learned to fly in a pacer and love them to this day. Make sure you set the wing AOI to that of a cub and you will have a great aircraft. Most piper parts can be found at the end of any runway in AK so if you bend it there should be a spare close by. Put some big tanks in the wings and get the big flaps with extended ailerons. Nothing wrong with a 12/14/22 wing and some say they handle better. Don't do center front seat. I fly my cub just like my pacer and use left side for landing reference. Not a big deal.
DENNY
 
…I like the control yokes because you don't have to climb over or around them…
Yeah, I can see having a load of 2X6’s up front next to the pilot seat and then having to maneuver around a control stick. Plus, keeping a yoke means one more fabrication job I won’t have to do, making the overall build easier. Okay, scratch the first idea…

I did a lot of texting with DW today while I was at work and he managed to shoot down a few more of my ideas as well ;-). He's already gone down this road. Oh well, I need to get the project home and start staring at it, dropping plumb bobs, measuring and so on - - - and then abandon a few more ideas.

The mission purpose for the ship won’t change, but the execution of how we get there may be altered somewhat. It’s all good.

…Ditch the rear baggage door because the back seat door gives plenty of access...
I’ve thought about getting rid of the baggage door like you said, and adding a loading door way back in the fuselage to feed 8’ material through and into the cabin cargo area.
 
I'm thinking of having Steve Furjesi make a Dynafocal engine mount. He's currently making one for our Cub. Has anyone ever given any consideration to altering the angle of the engine? I haven't gotten PA22 drawings yet but just looking at the engine, it looks like it angles downward? Has anyone drawn up a Zero T/L engine mount?
 
Yeah, I can see having a load of 2X6’s up front next to the pilot seat and then having to maneuver around a control stick. Plus, keeping a yoke means one more fabrication job I won’t have to do, making the overall build easier. Okay, scratch the first idea…....
D.A., Just to clarify my idea of a stick vs a yoke. I do understand and appreciate your idea of simplifying construction by using a yoke. However consider the yoke sticking out of the panel while you are loading a bulky item past it. Of course you could make the yoke and shaft removable.
 
Pa-22 mount is too short for CG location. When you move tail back you have to adjust. Build straight mount using the tlar method
 
A lumber rack on the belly will haul a lot of stuff. use the same points to hang a belly pod for fish, meat, ect, that you don't want in the main cabin.
DENNY
 
Dave, didn't you already have a SC project before you bought Martel's SC? Man, you've got a lotta airplane building in front of you. You might want to finish one (any one) before you get started on another.
I suggest staying with the yokes-- in fact pull the RH controls out and just have the pilot's side yoke, and put a seaplane door on that side for easy in/out.
The Pacer is pretty capable as is, more so than a lot of people think. Maybe just install some Dakota Cub Super 20 wings, and leave the fuselage the stock length. hang a 360 on the nose, or maybe just a souped-up 320.
 
Pa-22 mount is too short for CG location...
I've heard that and I've heard that some Stretched project guys use Maule engine mounts, that Maule mounts are 9" longer and I've heard Maule mounts are a "Bolt On" for a Pacer firewall and give you a 5th mount point at the top center where all the tubes come together? Again, I won't have my donor in front of me until next weekend and I'm new to the SWP ranks, but is there any truth to all this? It’s been my understanding that a Maule was born from a Pacer, I guess maybe its true? I was REALLY hoping not to have to remake all my cowling, but if I did extend the mount, how much should it be approximately? I'm going with a Dynafocal mount only because the 2 O-360's that we have are Dynafocal.

A lumber rack on the belly will haul a lot of stuff…you don't want in the main cabin.
DENNY
Good idea!

Dave, didn't you already have a SC project…You might want to finish one (any one) before you get started on another...
Thanks for pointing that out Eric….:-? Actually, I negotiated a deal where Furjesi has our original frame so that ends the first project. Chris and my grandson Cody are going to be in charge of the Martel SC so this is just Grandpa’s backcountry fishing/hunting/building/prospecting/camping/exploring rig. I’m going with an O-360 because we already have one for both airplanes.
So when are you coming by the hangar?!?!
 
Dave, You brought back a lot of good memories. That was a good day. Still flying that airplane, and building another one for my youngest. We are going certified with that one though. I like to think that I know a little about these airplanes I do have a few ideas, thoughts, suggestions, if you are interested. We did tryout a few mount configurations, some of that depends on how the rest of the airframe is configured. Give me a call or email me - I PM'd that info to you. - Steve
 
…building another one for my youngest…
That’s so cool Steve. A third generation Bryant with an airplane designed by their grandfather. That’s just cool!

…Still flying that airplane…
When I think about building a Stretched Pacer (Which I’ve done for over 30 years now) 35K is the example that I envision. I like the orientation between the tail section and the HRL, I like how you faired the fuselage in, that’s the first time I’d ever seen the wide vee gear which I like. I’ve often thought that if Piper had built a Stretched Pacer, 35K is what it would have looked like. I also like the look and lines of 90D.

…I like to think that I know a little about these…
Well since the Bryant family invented the Stretched Pacer and have built them for over 50 years, yeah, I’d say you’re the go to guy.

…I do have a few ideas, thoughts, suggestions, if you are interested…
Absolutely Steve. I’ll get in touch with you soon, thanks man.
 
..... I won't have my donor in front of me until next weekend .....
So when are you coming by the hangar?!?!

Every time I go over to Arlington I check your hangar area from downwind, never see any sign of life. texted you a few times when there but usually don't get a response until much later.

FWIW a buddy of mine who's building up a Pacer has a couple extra Pacer fuselages, he'd probably be interested in parting with at least one of them. I think one's a 22 and the other's a 22/20. If you're interested I can out you in touch with him.
 
Every time I go over to Arlington I check your hangar...never see any sign of life. texted you a few times when there but usually don't get a response until much later...
Well that's no excuse;-). Actually Eric, some people have to work for a living (Bummer) but I'll give you a text when I'm out there for any length of time. I stop by after work a lot at night.
 
A lot of SP's are on what appear to be stock Pacer gear. I'm going with a wide vee gear. The wide vee gear appear to be longer, how long would the forward leg be if you wanted to go 3" longer than the Pacer gear leg? Any input on gear length if not 3" over stock Pacer?
 
Who makes this axle? It looks like it starts out as a square billet possibly? Does anyone know where it's available from?
 

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D.A.
I build the gear 6" taller than a standard PA-18, which works out to about 3" taller than the Pacer gear. 8.50's & 35's
 

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D.A...8.50's & 35's
That's an awesome looking ship Steve. Do you sell pre-made wing struts for a Stretched Pacer that will fit stock SC wing attach geometry? Do you still use PA-14 wings on the Producer? Also, check PM.
D.A.
 
D.A.,

Glad to hear about your project. I have been working on one of these for a while now and am finally about to put the wings on it and finish up the last details. I expect it will fly early spring of 2016 but will see. Here are a few of my observations which are born of mistakes and head scratching. The rest came from helpful people like Mr. Bryant who kindly answered some of my questions as well as some extremely helpful people in my area who are on this site who have been incredibly generous with their time, expertise and occasionally parts (I will not name them to maintain their innocence .:smile:)

The engine mounts always seem to be a head scratcher. After talking with several people who have flying versions of these planes, I decided to build a 3 inch extended mount. Dynafocal in my case. I gather the stock mount puts the CG at about 12 inches with a 24 inch stretch to the fuselage (somebody may correct me on this). One gentlemen I spoke with used the stock mount for a while and then used a 3" extended mount and had nothing but praise for it. I have gotten the same report from another gentleman who started with a 3 inch extended mount. I suspect Mr. Bryant is the expert on this. I think the answer on the engine mount depends greatly on your intended use and the flight characteristics you want power off and power on.

If you use a donor fuselage remember to do SB819. I had the fuselage painted and (I thought) ready for cover before I discovered this. What a pain. Also, on the fuselage, it is far easier to just rebuild the entire rear in my opinion than it is to stretch the original and try to fare out the longerons.

I removed the small rear co-pilot baggage door. Plenty of room in my opinion to load from the main door on the pilot side.

I did the gear like Steve Bryant does it. Of course, it is custom to the airplane as a result. I see merit however in adding the truss work to put supercub gear on the plane however in case you bend something and need parts. Fortunately I have two sets of gear but, who wants to build two sets of gear. I have two sets because I built a 6 inch extended set and then built a shorter 3 inch extended set. My plane will sit on 31's so I think 3 inches will be plenty.

My plane has 17 foot wing panels with 8 foot flaps and ailerons. Stock strut attach points on the wings identical to the supercub. I had to build custom struts though and "adjust" the strut attach fitting on the fuselage. I used the D@E struts but I have seen it done with steel piper strut blanks.

The consensus seems to be to use supercub tail feathers or larger. The people I have talked to with pacer feathers say they run out of elevator. Plus, this is a good place to build some percentage points when you fabricate the tail feathers.
I wish I could say how all of this works in combination but I will have to wait until the spring to see.

The one thing I will say about these projects is that everything on them feels custom fabricated. By the time you finish your "stretch" and complete SB817 you will probably have the same (or close) amount of time in the fuselage that you would have had in one built from scratch.

The wings on mine are scratch built. The tail feathers, landing gear, engine mount, control surfaces, doors, windows, floorboards, safety cables, door frames, brake pedals, rudder bar, plexi windows etc. are all scratch built. Some of it you can buy but it does seem that most of this plane is a fabrication effort. Of course, I might have gone about it all wrong too!

I look forward to seeing your progress.
 
D.A... I have been working on one of these for a while now...
Great information and I'm glad you chimed in here. Don't hesitate to post pictures of your SP on this thread. I'll give a longer reply tomorrow but I'm actually on the road now bringing my donor Tri Pacer back. With any luck, the story will really begin tomorrow.
 
Sounds good. I am not sure how to post pictures but if I can figure It out I may post a few. Right now I am in the "one step forward two steps back" phase where I am putting things on for final fit and then taking them off. Just got the windshield in and am working on the skylight right now. Looking forward to seeing your progress.
 
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