Building and finishing my 2+2/PA 14

Marty57 · Sep 7, 2015

Next issue ...... how to run my flap pulleys and cables. I'm using a center mounted flap handle; pretty standard set up. I'm bringing the two sides together to a triangular plate, than running one cable down a center pulley at the top of the cathedral. I have a couple pictures posted of the intended cable run. The question is how to mount the center pulley at the top of the cathedral. I'm open to ideas. The distance across is about where I have the bolt is about 4-1/2". Any ideas for a mounting set up for the pulley??

Marty

skywagon8a · Sep 8, 2015

Just weld a piece of heavy walled tubing to one of the cathedral members. Position it low enough so that there is no possibility of the cable rubbing on the crotch of the tubing cluster at any point in it's travel. Tack on a piece of heavy welding rod for a cable guard (prevents the cable from jumping off the pulley).

Larry G · Sep 8, 2015

This is like what Sky is talking about. I would like to now how to make the pictures larger.

Marty57 · Sep 8, 2015

Larry & Sky,
Thanks for the picture; I like the corner bracket. I have used the tubing mount as you mentioned Sky; just wondering how far from the tube I can get away with; max length of a bushing to support the load of the pulley and cable. I'm need to decide the routing; straight down the middle or along the sides than come back to the middle to the flap handle. Along the sides would need 10 pulleys so more weight but it leaves the upper and lower areas unobstructed. Going down the middle uses just 5 or 6 pulleys but I would have a cable running down the middle behind the rear bulkhead back from the rear seat. That might be ok as the back seat area on the 2+2 is pretty big so not sure if extended baggage is that necessary. I don't have the dogleg since the area back there is so big. The 2+2 also has the elevator cables connected to a bellcrank that is above the lower tubes so no flat floor unless it's all raised up anyway. I'm trying to keep things as light as possible with the smaller O290D2 that I'm using so not sure if I'm going to put in a floor in the rear behind the seating area or not. More head scratching necessary.

Marty

skywagon8a · Sep 8, 2015

Marty,
Make the bushing as long as you need. Then if you think that it could twist due to the leverage of the applied load, you can place a long narrow finger patch/reinforcement along the tube, over the bushing and along the tube. This will prevent the bushing from tearing out of the tubing locally. If you plan from the beginning to use the finger patch you can get away with a thinner walled bushing. This will need to be drilled/reamed to clear out the internal weld bead.

Marty57 · Sep 8, 2015

Skywagon,
I didn't think about using a finger strap; great idea for the longer pulley support bushings. I just need to decide on the routing; center or down the sides before moving forward. Leaning toward center about now.
Thanks for the tip!
Marty

Marty57 · Nov 16, 2015

Lots of good progress to report. After a lot of "one step forward and two steps back", I finished building the brake pedals and set up the master cylinders. I first built the brake pedals as the plans show but didn't like the flat plate for the rudder pedal portion of the pedal. After seeing Cub junkie's post of the pedals he made and getting drawings from him (thanks again Cub junkie) I made a set to match Piper's PA20 pedals. That was close but needed some adjustments to match the 2+2 geometry. After lots of time I got everything working and in place correctly. After finishing up the rudder pedals I ran the cables from the control stick back to the horizontal stabilizer. I welded in the tubes for the fairleads; pretty easy. Next, the seats. I needed to cut down the seats so I could weld in the tabs for the seat tracks. I've finished the seat frames and am working on the tabs for the tracks. I decided to run the tracks flat past the rear angle change in the fuselage. I'm going to use an oak shim bolted between the floor and the track. I made a couple of test shims today from pine to see how it would work and am happy with the results. Pictures below of the progress.

First, the finished rudder with the brake pedals.

Next, cables for the stab.

Last is the seat with the shim. The shim allows me to slide the seat back to give easy access to the front seat.

More to come as I install the tracks and seat belt tabs. Getting close to painting the fuselage. I only need to weld in the brackets for the electric trim and than the fuselage should be finished.

Marty57

Lowrider · Nov 17, 2015

Nice Marty! I like the foam set up...any thoughts of using high density and gel foam?

Marty57 · Nov 17, 2015

Lowrider,
The foam on the seat is from the original Piper seat upholstery . I just cut it on my band saw so I would have something to sit on as I tried out the tracks. I will use good foam for the finished seats. I plan on having the back rest removable by sliding it up and off the seat; would make a nice camping pillow if needed.
Marty

Cub junkie · Nov 17, 2015

Great progress Marty. All the little details take a lot of work. Are you going to weld the end caps on the rudder pedals? They make a difference.

C-FIJK · Nov 17, 2015

Marty I saw this on a sportsman here in Canada and as you know I built one as well if I was to do it again , I would not use the stick it gets in your way on the sportsman hits your legs , BTW Awesome job your doing !!!!!!

Marty57 · Nov 17, 2015

Yeah, I'll weld up the ends of the pedals before I finish them. Been trying to move forward with the big items on the fuselage so I can get the fuselage ready for paint. I hope to finish up the seat tracks today or tomorrow than move onto the seat belt tabs and a few other little things up front. All this "little" stuff sure takes a lot of time!
Marty

Tim · Nov 17, 2015

Marty, I like the shims under the seat tracks, you'll be able to move the seats back much farther than mine. When I get old I may do the same thing.

Marty57 · Nov 17, 2015

Tim,
Short legs make for innovative building sometimes! You have no idea how many times I have been in and out of the fuselage to try to figure out the best set up for the seats and rudder pedals. I think I have it right. It is nice how far back the seats will move and they will be easy to remove also. lots of figuring to make this work. Thanks again for the pictures of your seats; that helped with the decision making.
Marty

Cub junkie · Nov 18, 2015

Wag aero plans being vague in some areas brings out the creativity in a builder. Good idea on the seat tracks Marty. I always thought the cable runs/control system on the 2+2 was a little wonky. I put a J3 torque tube in one for a guy but he wanted to sit in the center PA12 style.

cruzair · Nov 18, 2015

Marty great work. I ESPECIALLY like the shims. I am short/small so I don't hit my knees getting in, but my long legged
friends have to do strange yoga moves. Lots of good progress. Jeff

Marty57 · Nov 18, 2015

I think the shims will work out real nice; I'm just about done welding in all the necessary tabs for the tracks. A bit tedious to get it all right and square but coming along. One thing I have noticed is that the sticks are not centered on the seats! I'm going to have to get creative with some stick angles or change the attach points of the sticks some. After the seats are in place I can get a better feel for how the sticks will work. Yeah, the Wag plans get very vague with each turn of the pages.

Some tricks for jigging up something like the seats. After I made all the tabs, each had to be set in place using the tracks as a jig. I used pieces of floor plywood so everything was spaced as it will be when finished. I used sharpie to blacken the top of the tab, held it in place, and put a drill bit through the hole. Rotating the bit by hand gives me an exact mark for each hole. I then used a nut plate drill jig to drill holes for the attachment of the nut plate. Nut plates will go on after the fuselage is painted.

Marty

Some pictures:

Marking the hole location with a drill bit.

Tab marked and drilled

Tab in place and tack welded

Main tabs in place for the tracks, ready for final welding.

Bill Rusk · Nov 19, 2015

Great creative solution to the problem of locating the tab, Marty. Well done!! It is coming along very nicely. I'm sure enjoying the blog. Thanks for taking the time to write it up and post pictures.

Bill

Marty57 · Nov 19, 2015

Thanks Bill; I keep going back to your build when I get to another step I'm not familiar with, sure helps. Question on the nut plates, did you use an aluminum rivet with your squeezer to attach the nut plates or steel ? Are there any concerns with dissimilar metal corrosion using aluminum rivets ? I'm going to prime with epoxy primer before attaching the nut plates but the holes will need to be cleaned out befor riveting. Thanks.

Marty

Bill Rusk · Nov 20, 2015

Marty

Aluminum rivets and the nutplates will be fine. The nutplates are coated and corrosion is rarely an issue. I have heard of some folks dipping rivets in various primers, AV-15, ACS50, Boelube, etc prior to riveting but frankly I think it is massive overkill unless you expect to park your airplane outside on the Gulf Coast and land in salt water every day. Just my opinion.

Bill

Marty57 · Nov 20, 2015

Big day today. I finished welding in all the seat tabs and fit the tracks and seats in place for the first time. Everything fits and slides nicely. Once the floating nut plates are installed the tracks will be slightly adjustable for better movement of the seats. All in all I'm very happy. Biggest event was both my wife and I climbing into the plane for the first time. After a combined weight loss of 160 lbs between us (95 for me, 65 for my wife) it was a moment of truth. I bought the plans for the plane back in 2005 so it's been a long hall so far. Drum roll please ....... we fit! With my seat forward and my wife's seat back we have plenty of room; it's very comfortable. It will be nice when the seats are finished and the back rest is at it's proper angle but I'm real happy getting to this point. Now, on to figuring out the seat belt tabs and some other floor tabs. Getting closer to painting this fuselage every day.

Marty

tempdoug · Nov 20, 2015

Marty, im sure you thought of it but make sure to have some stops so your seats dont roll right out the back door.

Marty57 · Nov 20, 2015

I'm going to drill and tap a hole at both ends of the track and place a stop bolt in the hole. A was thinking of some sort of flip over cam lever at the front as a safety lock of some type. I'm not sure how that will happen or work but it's in the planning stage. I still need to figure out the seat belt attach tabs. The tabs will be real close to the rudder cable pulley by the door. I also need to figure out how to position the tab vertically so the seat belt wont have to turn. The only point to weld the tab to is the cross tube. Not sure if wrapping the tab around the tube will be ok. More to plan.
Marty

skywagon8a · Nov 21, 2015

Marty57 said:

Marty, while it may just be the angle of the photo, it appears as though that rusty curved "U" channel could be pressed against the elevator torque tube causing interference. It might be a good idea to weld in a vertical piece of "U" between the rusty piece and the cross tube as a safety factor.

Marty57 · Nov 21, 2015

Skywagon,
It's the angle. The tube clears the "U" channel through the full range of motion. Thanks for looking; always good to have a second set of eyes.

Marty

skywagon8a · Nov 21, 2015

Marty57 said:
Skywagon,
It's the angle. The tube clears the "U" channel through the full range of motion. Thanks for looking; always good to have a second set of eyes.

Marty

Marty, My concern is that IF something hit that channel pushing it up, AND you were unaware that it happened, then what?? Stuff does happen once in a while.

Marty57 · Nov 21, 2015

Skywagon,
I get your concern now, makes sense. There isn't much support in that area, you are right. I'll take a look at welding something on either side of the tube from the channel to the "V" above it. Thanks for the input, good idea.

Marty

jimboflying · Nov 21, 2015

Marty,

What thickness of material are you using for the seatbelt attach fittings?

mam90 · Nov 21, 2015

Marty,

Congratulations to to you and your wife on the weight loss! That takes real determination - kind of like building an airplane.

Marty57 · Nov 21, 2015

Jim,
The seat belt tabs are .090 4130. I bought them from Javron to save some time fabricating them. I have decided to wrap them around the cross tube, the surface of the tab will be parallel with the floor and angled up about 45 degrees. I think this will work easily. Pictures of the tabs are on another post, http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?49410-How-do-I-weld-in-my-seat-belt-tabs

Marty

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