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PA 18-95 Can I replicate SuperCub #1

I had a friend in AK who had a J-3 which was modified to a PA-11 configuration. Two fuel tanks in the wood long spar wings, non-electric 0-320, Borer prop, Gar-aero wheels/tires, Hendrix wing tips and flaps, and Cal Center leading edge. All certified. I don't remember if I ever knew the weight but it was light. And it performed like a hot rod J-3. Short both out and in. A real treat to fly with or without a load. I'm tall and do not remember the spar being an obstacle. I do believe that if you used a -18 top deck that a saw would easily solve the long spar question.
 
cubdriver2 said:
My 11 was the 49th one built and had j3 struts on it.

Glenn
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No doubt, Glenn; I'm sure some of the early ones had those on them; and then they must have gone over to the streamlined ones. The only difference in the mounting would probably be the strut clamps?
 
j3flyer said:
That is good news to me. So all PA-18's have the adjustable front seat? With it all the way aft, there was a ton of legroom. Were the PA18-95 SC's built from J-3 parts? I'm guessing that Piper must have used a lot of Cub parts when they started production. Did that include the struts?
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This is funny: A New Zealander passing on advice to an American about an American icon.:p

Go to supercubproject.com There you can download a copy of the Super Cub parts book. If you have a J-3 I suppose you already have a copy of the J-3 parts book. Many of the answers you seek can be found by comparing part numbers in these two documents.

In short, when they went from the PA-11 to the PA-18 it was a new type type certificate and the max. weight went from 1220 lbs (or whatever it is), to 1500 lbs. An engineering exercise would've dictated the changes they needed along with the "marketing dictated" changes. But you are right, they would not have changed anything they didn't need to.

Going through the PA-11/late J-3 wing rib by rib you will find that only the root (butt) ribs differ by a dash number and the difference on the actual rib is minor. But the struts did change, a change probably dictated by the increase in max. wt. to 1500 lbs. There are plenty of you tube videos taken from go-pro's attached to the struts of J-3's and Super Cubs. That might be the best place to get a look at the different struts. The Super Cub strut is wider and more streamlined. I have read claims that the Super Cub struts will increase your cruise speed.

Search this site. There has been a couple of threads on Super Cub S/N 1. Within one of them there is a link to the restorer's website with a slide-show of the rebuild. It might answer some questions.

I hope this gets you on the right track.

Andrew.
 
The PA-11 was modified to a single PA-19 (not the PA-19 that comes up if you Google it). That one-off PA-19 became the PA-18-95.

My 11 has the streamlined struts, but they are lighter than 18 struts.
 
Ok, I have come across a good deal on a J -3 experimental fuselage. Can anyone help me with the following questions. I think I would achieve my previous goals, be moving the seat back 3". I would also add wing tanks, and a header tank. Easy so far....but will a PA 18-95 boot cowl, and engine cowl fit on a J-3 ? I can now use the Wag aero wing kit, without cutting down the front spar. Anyone see any obstacles so far? I recently flew my J-3 from the front seat and the spar was not in the way. About 3" of legroom would make this work. Not a PA 18-95 , but close.
 
My latest thinking on supercub 1

Sorry about repeating the older post, but I have a few more questions. I have found a good deal on an experimental J-3 fuselage. Someone please respond to a few questions. I would like to move the seat back 3". I think this would solve the legroom issue. Will a PA18-95 boot cowl, and engine cowl fit a J-3? I could now use wag aero wing kit, without cutting the front spar. Does all this sound reasonable to those that have gone before me ? Can anyone see any issues with this combination. Using a j-3 fuselage sure would be easy. Will PA18 interior panels (metal) fit a j-3 fuselage?
 
Cowls are different, although you could prop able make it fit if you really wanted to. Check univair part numbers to see if they are the same for both models on parts you're not sure about.

Depending on what you want the end product to be, I'd consider using either an experimental pa-18 fuselage, or have Javron build you a pa-11 fuselage with a 18 top deck. Is this going to be a light sport build?
 
When you move the seat back three inches won't that interfere with the rear stick and down elevator limit? jrh
 
The PA11/PA18-95 boot cowl will fit but you may have to modify the formers a bit. Why not put a PA18 top deck on the J# fuselage and modify the spars to fit? You are going to have to fabricate things no matter what you do.
 
j3flyer said:
Sorry about repeating the older post, but I have a few more questions. I have found a good deal on an experimental J-3 fuselage. Someone please respond to a few questions. I would like to move the seat back 3". I think this would solve the legroom issue. Will a PA18-95 boot cowl, and engine cowl fit a J-3? I could now use wag aero wing kit, without cutting the front spar. Does all this sound reasonable to those that have gone before me ? Can anyone see any issues with this combination. Using a j-3 fuselage sure would be easy. Will PA18 interior panels (metal) fit a j-3 fuselage?
Click to expand...

I'm gonna register another vote for the PA-18 top deck. Cutting the spars back won't be much of a problem, adding material on is the thing that has most of us stumped.

Interior metal panels would be cut to match the frame you are using. You would need tabs as on a PA-18 to attach them to.

Moving the seat back will introduce a whole heap of complications, someone has already mentioned one of them. I would think that overcoming those complications will be a lot more work than changing your J-3 fuse top deck to PA-18 style.

All the best with your project,
Andrew.
 
Legend kit vs Roll your own kit.

MainlandCub said:
I'm gonna register another vote for the PA-18 top deck. Cutting the spars back won't be much of a problem, adding material on is the thing that has most of us stumped.

Interior metal panels would be cut to match the frame you are using. You would need tabs as on a PA-18 to attach them to.

Moving the seat back will introduce a whole heap of complications, someone has already mentioned one of them. I would think that overcoming those complications will be a lot more work than changing your J-3 fuse top deck to PA-18 style.

All the best with your project,
Andrew.

Thanks for all the good information. So I have decided to go with the PA-18 style fuselage, no matter how good of a deal I can get on a "Cubby" fuselage. Has anyone ever done a cost comparison between putting together your kit from various vendors ( airframe, wing , controls, etc) or just buying the Legend kit. I did a quick and dirty look about a year ago, just using Wag's catalog vs Legend and there was not a lot of difference. The legend would give me everything a PA-18-95 kit offers....I think.
Click to expand...
 
j3flyer

I have considered that issue myself. Years ago when building model airplanes we would sometimes buy several different kits of the same model and then take the best from each to build up the "ultimate" model. We called it "kit bashing". You could certainly do that here to build up your version of the perfect airplane but I would offer that you will need to be quite handy with a torch and tools. You are going to run into all sorts of problems. Not a big deal if you are mentally ready for that and prepared to deal with it. I have visited Cub Crafters more than once, been to Legend, been to Javron, been to Nick Smiths, been to Wag Aero. The problem you will probably run into goes like this. Manufacturer A uses a jig to build part X and that fits into part Y that he also has a jig for. They all fit. Now you are going to buy part x from builder A but part Y from a different company and they may or may not fit together. Which company will you call for help? Which company is at fault? You are going to spend a TON of time with "issues" like this.
You want to build a really light early SC. That is great and if it will truly fit your mission it will be the perfect plane for you. Having now built two Cubs I can tell you it is very difficult to stay true to your original goal/mission. It is Sooooo easy to think, "I'll add this nice extra feature" like flaps for instance, or extending the baggage area, or float fittings (if not for you its good for resale) but all that adds weight, so you end up with your C-90 or 0-200 powered lightweight SC except it weighs 1000 pounds instead of 800 and its a pig. So you spent 100K and 8 years of your life but the final product is not what you wanted. Think carefully about what you want then stick to your goal like crazy. Watch every ounce.
The Legend is a fine kit, and a great flying airplane. Jay DeRosier at Javron is awesome and VERY flexible with his builds so you can customize his kit to meet your specs better than anyone. The CC kits are absolutely like building a Lego kit. It is assembly only. No fabrication or thinking required. But not a lot of flexibility to customize either.
My recommendation based on what you have posted so far would be to talk to Javron and see if that will best fit your goals.

My opinion only. Hope it helps.

Bill
 
I see your from the souh east, I wonder is Robert Spraker, Cub Frames, in Florida, if he is still building fuselages? There was also a place in Tennessee that was building frames, just some other ideas, nothing wrong with the above advise. A 95 is a blast until you start throwing weight into it. Just really put a lot of thought into 85-90% of its use.
 
Last edited:
Bill Rusk said:
j3flyer

I have considered that issue myself. Years ago when building model airplanes we would sometimes buy several different kits of the same model and then take the best from each to build up the "ultimate" model. We called it "kit bashing". You could certainly do that here to build up your version of the perfect airplane but I would offer that you will need to be quite handy with a torch and tools. You are going to run into all sorts of problems. Not a big deal if you are mentally ready for that and prepared to deal with it. I have visited Cub Crafters more than once, been to Legend, been to Javron, been to Nick Smiths, been to Wag Aero. The problem you will probably run into goes like this. Manufacturer A uses a jig to build part X and that fits into part Y that he also has a jig for. They all fit. Now you are going to buy part x from builder A but part Y from a different company and they may or may not fit together. Which company will you call for help? Which company is at fault? You are going to spend a TON of time with "issues" like this.
You want to build a really light early SC. That is great and if it will truly fit your mission it will be the perfect plane for you. Having now built two Cubs I can tell you it is very difficult to stay true to your original goal/mission. It is Sooooo easy to think, "I'll add this nice extra feature" like flaps for instance, or extending the baggage area, or float fittings (if not for you its good for resale) but all that adds weight, so you end up with your C-90 or 0-200 powered lightweight SC except it weighs 1000 pounds instead of 800 and its a pig. So you spent 100K and 8 years of your life but the final product is not what you wanted. Think carefully about what you want then stick to your goal like crazy. Watch every ounce.
The Legend is a fine kit, and a great flying airplane. Jay DeRosier at Javron is awesome and VERY flexible with his builds so you can customize his kit to meet your specs better than anyone. The CC kits are absolutely like building a Lego kit. It is assembly only. No fabrication or thinking required. But not a lot of flexibility to customize either.
My recommendation based on what you have posted so far would be to talk to Javron and see if that will best fit your goals.

My opinion only. Hope it helps.



Bill
Click to expand...
. Thanks for this. This information is exactly what I needed to make my decision. I think the legend kit is for me, but I will consider the Javron kit also. At the end of the day, I think it would be a whole lot easier to sell (when I quit this flying thing...) an ELSA built legend. Any opinion on going EAB or ELSA?
 
j3flyer said:
. Thanks for this. This information is exactly what I needed to make my decision. I think the legend kit is for me, but I will consider the Javron kit also. At the end of the day, I think it would be a whole lot easier to sell (when I quit this flying thing...) an ELSA built legend. Any opinion on going EAB or ELSA?
Click to expand...

I think it is better to go EAB and just document it to 1320 lbs gross. That way you get all the advantages of the ability to fly it as a light sport, and none of the limitations that ELSA will give you.
 
Hey Cubdriver, You responded to me way back in 2015. I decided that my need for a "Cub Like" airplane could be achieved with a Zenith 750. So, 3 years later, the Zenith fly's like a dream, climbs like crazy with it's O-200, but it's still not a Cub. The shop is empty and I know that the last one just has to be a cub. Right now, I am looking for an experimental 18 fuselage, or a j3 fuselage that can be modified with the 18 top deck. You seem to have a lot of contacts with the builders. Please pass the word . My "dream" cub remains the same as yours. No flap, O-200 power, light, simple cub. Probably go with electrics since I have grown used to that with the Zenith. I know Javron and Legend build exactly the fuselage I am looking for but cost here is a factor. Matt Miller Atlanta.
 
j3flyer said:
Hey Cubdriver, You responded to me way back in 2015. I decided that my need for a "Cub Like" airplane could be achieved with a Zenith 750. So, 3 years later, the Zenith fly's like a dream, climbs like crazy with it's O-200, but it's still not a Cub. The shop is empty and I know that the last one just has to be a cub. Right now, I am looking for an experimental 18 fuselage, or a j3 fuselage that can be modified with the 18 top deck. You seem to have a lot of contacts with the builders. Please pass the word . My "dream" cub remains the same as yours. No flap, O-200 power, light, simple cub. Probably go with electrics since I have grown used to that with the Zenith. I know Javron and Legend build exactly the fuselage I am looking for but cost here is a factor. Matt Miller Atlanta.
Click to expand...


change that, No flaps, to flaps and use a set of these and youll be there.http://www.javronaviation.com/Front-Spar-Butt-Hinge-1/4-Rise/ and get a wing kit from jay and put it together yourself.
 
You'll want/need to go to a PA 11 or PA 18 windshield as well. The J-3 windshield is almost perpendicular to airflow in flight. The 11 and 18 windshields are much more reclined.

I wouldn't use J-3 struts. Minimum of PA-11 struts, but why not just use PA-18 if you're EX?

MTV
 
mvivion said:
You'll want/need to go to a PA 11 or PA 18 windshield as well. The J-3 windshield is almost perpendicular to airflow in flight. The 11 and 18 windshields are much more reclined.

I wouldn't use J-3 struts. Minimum of PA-11 struts, but why not just use PA-18 if you're EX?

MTV
Click to expand...
How much speed gained by using 11 or 18 windshield? I think I have a J3 windshield for my EX 11 Project....I’ll have to compare it to my J3 to be sure.
 
According to Atlee back in the day, 5 to 7 mph. We converted my 90 hp J-3 to mostly a PA 11, including removing the nose tank, 11 boot cowl and windshield, and pressure cowl. It came out faster at same power settings, but I assume it was the combination.

That said, before these mods, flying in rain, rain would pool in middle of windshield......Put a J 3 in flight attitude and look at the windshield angle.

MTV
 
Years ago when the first Seaplane Fly Ins were held in Greenville, there were a lot of small airplanes competing in
The TO contests. Many were very similar, when PA11s got lined up against J3's both with 90hp engines the J3's usually had a little edge, the weights could be pretty close
And if they were both on 1320's with similar props, unless there was a decent headwind, 6/7 seconds were common
times. Alot of folks keep forgeting a J3 mount is almost ZERO thrust a PA11/18 95hp are both setting 4/5 degrees
Negitive. It makes a difference.............. E
 
I hear a few washers under the lower motor mount can change the engine angle. Strictly rumor and the cowl may have to be adjusted. Back in the day JC Whitney might offer a kit.

Gary
 
How bout simply bolting a J3 mount onto the 18/95 and adjust your cowlings, then you got the best of both worlds.
 
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