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How to grom a runway for ski op's

algonquin

MEMBER
Seldovia,Ak
Just wondering how to treat a strip for ski operations. Does snowmobile tracks cause problems? Thanks Tom
 
Just run the entire length before turning around.. repeat.. repeat.. repeat.. repeat.. lol. I use to use my wide track JD350 dozer and then once packed would drag the blade backwards to clean it up. Now I can't be bothered and just use WIDE skis and go out and give'r!
 
Would it be worth asking the local snowmoble club to run the groomer over it ? Also how wide would be good, I'm totally inexperienced on ski fly, thanks
 
The key is simply to knock the air out of the snow, and let it settle. Then, after a bit it will set up and make a nice strip.

if you have a snowmobile, find a six or eight foot long chunk of chain link fencing, slide a piece of pipe through one end, and hook that to your sno go. Drag that back and forth on your strip a few times, and let it set up......done.

using just a snow machine to groom a strip will work, but you're going to be running back and forth a LOT.

As to how wide: Build a circle at each end to accommodate turning around. The strip itself doesn't need to be very wide.

MTV
 
I used an older, wide-tracked snogo with less aggressive track and wide skins on the skis. Go back and forth the entire length, overlapping some on each trip packing everything down. I then had a ~10-12 in. diameter spruce log about 10 ft long with holes bored in each end and a bridle made of heavy rope that I pulled behind the snogo to smooth things out. Keep everyone off it until the next day and it should be set up pretty well. Include big, wide areas for turning around. You need to get out and do it after each snow, but you'll be surprised at how long it lasts into the spring. The hard part is trying to keep the kids with hot snogos from tearing it all up.

Jim W
 
Tom in the 17 years since I built my strip I have only groomed it a few times. And those were after 30"+ snow dumps in 24 hrs. I haven't groomed it since the 42" we got on Valentines day 07. Just use it, your protected over there from major drifting. Mine gets 3' drifts across it and the wind blows here most days and I'd have to groom it every time I want to fly, that gets old quick.just use it.

Glenn
 
I haven't closed on it yet, another week I hope. It is listed on the charts though. There is a set of tracks from the local club groomer half way up from today. Thanks guys for the advise, looks like a good winter , getting another foot tomorrow.
 
We used to have to groom a strip for the 206 on skiis, I just took an old set of bed springs, and used to drag that behind the skidoo, if it was wind blown we added a bunch of weight onto until it would eat thru it and level it out, need a huge flat circle to turn the 206 around under power by yourself, so most times tryed to land unload an go straight out. If you had few people to help turn it by hand that works too,
Note: Dont ever try to strap a set of those uncovered bed springs onto your spreader bars on floats, I have had many different items straped
To a floatplane and that was one of the worst! Turbulence over the tail was ugly, and drag from all the those coils unreal, dont recomend that caper to anyone!
Algoquin,
You often have that option of looking the lake over carefully, finding a lee shure where its not drifted or rough and landing there, and then slow taxiing back to where you wanted to land? That is always better than bending a gear leg, or caving in
A longeron!
 
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I used to use a Thiokol 13' groomer for my strip, now I just leave the floats on and save a lot of time / energy / and aggravation.
 
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Here's one, the wife just asked if they make skis for her C-150, anybody know?

YES... you need an NA800 nose ski and a pair of Federal 1800 or 2000 for the STC, although there is a spot in the paperwork that mentions 1500's many A&P will balk at signing them out on those.
 

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Awesome, have you flown a 150 on skis? I have a pair of 1500 in the shop from a Pacer I once had, wonder how much rwy it would take to get it off the ground? Again this would be my first ski flying I've ever done, never put the skis on the Pacer.
 
Don't forget---BRAKING ACTION is minimal--give yourself some room for error !!! A nice Citabria wound up bending a leading edge on a tree a couple years ago ---did not think of stopping room......
 
Seeing the name Seldovia, let me offer some thoughts:

You can get away with no grooming, and just land and take off with enough power. I have taken off with the belly in the snow.

Do you really want to do that at your home strip? Seldovia gets some warming and rain, and deep snow. Think about leaving tracks in 1' of snow! How hard will they be when it freezes back down!


The reason to groom is to have a smooth surface for continued operation. Tracks compress the snow, the snow becomes HARD! The next time you land you will run into the hard snow and it causes impact to your gear...

Then it will get warm, and you will take off and making ruts, the sides will be compressed, and when it freezes you have a ridge. Land and bang into that and you might break something.

I once landed at my remote strip in 33 degree weather, jumped out and chased the wolf that was crossing. Because I did not get the strip groomed and it then got cold that night, the strip froze solid I had ruts all winter long that would jerk the plane around if I hit them wrong!

So from the simple to the lengthy:
1. Get a small sled like a tundra or bravo and invite the young neighbor kid to drive up and down for an hour. You will need to do a bit of fixing after, but not much, (you buy the fuel). Kids get to go riding, you get the strip packed.
2. do it yourself
3. get two pallets from somewhere and set them side by side, tie a line from the back of the sled to the front center of the pallets; if deep snow a pre-pack will be needed. Pull the pallets up and down to take out the ridges in the snow. Pallets will last a couple of groomings before coming apart.
4. Tie a log sideways to the back of the sled and go
5. Take a couple of 4x4's and build a simple aframe drag. You need to make it wider than the sled, but depending on the sled size you need ot have it where you can pull it through a foot of snow. Make sure you have cross members to support it, and to act as cutters when it is a bit of crust on the top. (a ladder sideways will help or work as cutters also). You might need more weight on the Aframe depending on conditions and sled type. Trees or more lumber can be tied on to make weight adjustments easy.
6. make the aframe out of steel
7. What MTV said
8. Buy a fancy groomer for ski trails to pull behind the sled

The key I learned for smooth strips is that you need to do the grooming when the snow is soft enough to flow, and have a drag that will cut the surface high spots and carry some of the snow into a low spot and let the snow drop out. Having a front and rear sideways cutter, (two poles/boards) spaced a couple of feet apart perpendicular to travel works great. The longer the groomer the less wavy the strip will be.

Skis from a sled will leave tracks, so a groomer behind will remove those for a smoother surface. Once you do groom it is best to depart off the end, turning out on the fresh groom will leave tracks, which when frozen will be hard bumps. Let the strip settle and freeze up. IN cold weather it might only be an hour, or you might have to wait over night. A foot print should not be a hole when it is ready.

Note: As you cut and roll the snow with the groomer the moisture will be released a little bit, so once it is back on the surface and left alone it will freeze the snow down hard.

If you do leave tracks on soft snow, the sooner you groom it the better chance of having a smooth surface the rest of the year.

Starting with fresh snow and keeping it groomed will make it easy, trying to groom after it has been rutted can be a pain in the tail.

Old cutting edges from graders make great groomer cutters, and can often be gotten free at the local plow yards.

A well groomed strip will hold out longer in warm weather, and be much less wear on gear. They also work well as a drag strip too!
 
I use my ski strip the same way each time, so if any ruts are frozen in I'm parallel to them in, no need to touch it with a groomer. Straight out and straight in, not that I have any choice, and at least around here the wind fills things in pretty quick. I do like the fact that it is groomed/packed down, it will last longer in warm weather. The ski area above me is doing fine, though this has been a very sparse snow year so far. It's amazing how the groomers up there massage what little snow they have to work with, then fluff it back up for the next day, one of their machines would be the ultimate ski plane groomer!
 
Sorry, should have included that I'm down south for the winter in northern NY At the base of the mountains. I get my grandkids fix here, then retreat back home in April after maple sugaring is over. It's been running a bit cold except when it warms up to snow, I had a year a few ago that I never hit 70deg weather, lol but thanks Al for warning us.
 
I spent 4 days stranded in 1983 grooming the airstrip at Cold Meadows Idaho. Used the plane until it ran low on gas, then snowshoes. You can read the whole story coming out this summer in Notes From The Cockpit, A Mountain Pilot's Perspective. Fun and games!! We will be announcing it on this website with Steve's blessing.
 
Dick,
Will be looking forward to reading that one! Always remember one time refueling at Merrill Field, in Ak, some wise a*s kid that was waiting to get a lesson in C150, was examining the snowshoes on my wingstrut, the guy that was pumpin the fuel was a seasoned bush pilot with
25K hours flying Alaska, so this kid blurts out, Gosh if you have an airplane, what the heck do you need snowshoes for? I looked at the fella gassin me up, and he just shook his head, and I couldnt help sayin, Well you might be surprised all the things you can do with a pair of snowshoes............................ I have no doubt he had never had a pair straped on his feet!
 
Sounds about as good as the kid in New Brunswick that was filling my motorhome and eyeballing the 5 Horse Honda mounted back on the roof access ladder. Asked me where we were heading and I told him PEI. He replied with " I think they've built a bridge now, you won't need the outboard" ! :roll: Guess he missed the portaboat mounted on the port side!

Tom.. the 150 on skis works pretty good, as the nose is so light that with elevator you can pretty much keep the nose wheel / ski of a 150 in the air.

The NA800 isn't easy to find... and it certainly isn't cheap if you ever had to buy it new. As noted, the STC states 1800 or 2000 mains. Even with tagged 1500's 10 or 12" wide some A&P's will still balk at signing her out. Really reaching at straws considering they're all the same beam.. and 8" are 1500.. 10" are 1800 and 12" are 2000's.
 
algonquin, Sounds like the strip is in northern NY, You need to be careful because there is a group of flyers in that area that are relentless with their passion, Hope you have a wife as understanding as Glenn's is, he will make sure it's packed down for you and save your pennies for breakfast someplace ( everyday or weekends ) I'm not sure Glenn really has a job other than flying his cub.
 
Yes sir, in upstate, I know Glen and most of the outlaw gang he rides with, or at least seen there pictures in the FAA office,lol. Good bunch of guys, can't wait to fly with them when I finish my PA12 which is in the build. My worry with the wife is she will leave me working on planes and be off flying her 150 ( it's really hers). Last summer she dragged me up north because she wanted to fly over the Arctic Circle in the 185. Had to ask her not to throw out my beer and tell me we had to fly to Homer on a beer run. Red hair girls!
 
Note: Dont ever try to strap a set of those uncovered bed springs onto your spreader bars on floats, I have had many different items straped
To a floatplane and that was one of the worst!

That's funny, my grandfather had a friend with a Howard DGA-15 and he used to talk about how it would carry anything you could attach between the floats with ease...except bed springs. And apparently a cub doesn't work well without the skylight glass installed.
 
Ron,
Your right on both counts, bed springs are a bad deal, and thats a fact, I had em straped under a 185 and two canoes would be childs play compared to bed springs!
 
Rex Lanham, famous Idaho pilot, flew bedsprings on the bottom of his cub from Big Creek to Cabin Creek once. said it was the closest he ever came to crashing.
 
I groom my runway with three logs with cables joined at a clevis that I hook to my Tundra's hitch (both my 90 Tundra and my new Tundra). It works well and is simple. I don't have a closeup of the setup but its simple. I use this at my cabin.

At my home airport, they use tires and a 12x12 beam.




 
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