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Thread: Bendix Injection O-470

  1. #1

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    Bendix Injection O-470

    Seems to be a secret STC for this and STC for installation on a C180. I am not finding much doing a ssearch, so what is the poop on this mood?

    Mike

  2. #2
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Need more information. What model C180? What model Bendix Injection? The engine type certificate lists several models which can use Bendix injection. There are many STCs listed for engine changes on various models of the C180.

    Have you looked through this?
    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...e?OpenFrameset

    Is there nothing in your aircraft records? Old 337?
    N1PA

  3. #3
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I remember seeing a Bendix installation on an 50's 180 in the picture gallery of the 180/185 Club website a few years ago. Seems it was a mechanic up in Alaska that did it. Could it be BJ Airmotive or something like that? Just found this in 180/185 forum

    10/16/2007 10:52 PM

    I'm in the process of doing the Bendix fuel inj. now. Will let you know when it all comes together. I'm looking forward of not having to run carb. heat this winter. I'm alittle anal about running egt's close together. It will cost close to $7,500 when done. As far as disadvantages I don't think it will start as quick and when you run out of gas it will be hard to get going again. I do think it will be more effient on fuel, I have a P-Ponk motor with 8.5 to 1 comp. and Lycon did the flow match on the cylinders.
    9/21/2006 1:43 AM


    The STCs are SE1CE (engine) and SA108CE (airframe).

    Last edited by 180Marty; 09-20-2014 at 06:21 AM.

  4. #4
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Somebody that went by MLJ did it and had pictures on the 180 club website.

    5/31/2002 11:42 PM


    Bendix Fuel Injection Parts

    2524054-11 Servo
    2524232 Flow Divider
    RG15980B1 Romec Fuel Pump
    RB7756-2 Driver for fuel pump
    4140-00-17 Dukes fuel pump 12 volt
    2525864-2 Fuel injectors
    EI/JPI/Shadin Fuel Flow

    Fabricate the following

    Spacer for air box, difference between carburetor and throttle body, plate to cover Continental fuel pump opening, injector lines, hoses, support for fuel pump

  5. #5
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Good information Marty. Mike, you might check with http://www.precisionairmotive.com/ since they now own the manufacturing rights to the Bendix systems they may also have the STC information.
    N1PA

  6. #6
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Mike there used to be an early 180 that parked in the mid pond "corner of the float pond at FAI with an injected O 470. Plane was orange and white with some black trim. I can't recall the owners name, and it's been a while, so don't know if it's still there. I'll bet one of the east ramp maintenance outfits could tell you about it.

    MTV

  7. #7

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    Site member Crash's 180 has Bendix injection. It was on it when he got it but he'd have the paperwork. Send him a PM. I've known of a few guys that've gone that route but all were done through field approval.
    Last edited by stewartb; 09-20-2014 at 04:24 PM.

  8. #8

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    Ok, I am curious ifanyone has had first hand info on this mod. I have the above STC numbers, but have not seen the paperwork to see what is involved or any restrictions on installlation. My understandi g is that the owner does ot support or aknowledge the STC.
    Mike

  9. #9
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mike, Have you contacted the listed owner of the STC? Once you do, depending on what they say, you can then go to the FAA to request the information from their files. If the STC has been abandoned or not supported, the FAA is supposed to let you see the information. Your local FAA office can request the information from the holding office and can allow you to see it in the local office. The local FAA has done this for me.
    N1PA

  10. #10
    574cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Somebody that went by MLJ did it and had pictures on the 180 club website.

    If the poster was from birchwood with a blue and yellow 180. It is Mike Petrie owner of MLJ his number is 688-0346. He should be able to help out on a STC or field approval.

  11. #11

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    OH BOY!!!
    the only thing worse than hot starting a F.I. continental,
    is hot starting an F.I. Lycoming! and that's basically what you r creating. I understand what u like about fuel injection. I know its all about technique and staying proficient (I can hot start either one).
    but jeez I/d sure think twice about all that work (converting, and operating). sometimes simple is better

  12. #12
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    I did one over 15 years ago on a 0-470-50 pponk. He would be able to tell you how. Don't remember the paperwork, think BJ handled that part maybe......

  13. #13
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Mike Petrie is the name I remember

  14. #14

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    Starting any Continental is easy. I have never ever had a problem, Lycoming makes me sick with frustration.Hate lycoming, and I have lots, and lots, and lots of starts. Mostly I am after a bit more power, ease of start, better fuel efficency. Does anyne have this engine? What are the restrictions or added limitations?
    Mike

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mghallen View Post
    Starting any Continental is easy. I have never ever had a problem, Lycoming makes me sick with frustration.Hate lycoming, and I have lots, and lots, and lots of starts. Mostly I am after a bit more power, ease of start, better fuel efficency. Does anyne have this engine? What are the restrictions or added limitations?
    Mike
    As SB pointed out Crash has this on his 180 and is probably the closest to you to visit with. Outside of that I'd give Steve Knopp a call. He will be busy and hard to reach initially, but when you get ahold of him, he will give you all the time you need to answer your questions with straight forward and accurate answers. He has done these, and if I were after an injected sky wagon, this in conjunction with his less known O-550 is the way I'd go.

    http://www.pponk.com

    Take care, Rob

  16. #16

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    I think it's accurate to say that eliminating carb ice and improving temperature distribution are the primary advantages of the Bendix FI mod. I don't think it'll net a horsepower increase. The TCM IO-470 has higher compression than the 0-470. The 35hp difference between the two is attributed to that, not the fuel delivery. If the displacement, compression, RPM, and fuel consumption are equal? The power output will be essentially equal. Getting a big bore's carb to flow enough fuel can be frustrating. Add that to the attractiveness of Bendix FI. In my circle of friends and acquaintances the Bendix mod had more interest 10 or 15 years ago. I don't hear about it much these days, but there are some good carb guys tweaking carbs now.

  17. #17
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The advantage of the Bendix FI over the Continental FI is that the airframe fuel system does not need to be modified. The Continental system requires a fuel return to the airframe fuel tank. The Bendix does not. It has been my experience that the Continental system is a bit easier for consistent starts. Even when familiar with both.
    N1PA

  18. #18

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    stewart b,
    who would one contact to tweak a carburetor?

  19. #19

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    a tweaker?

  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    To expand upon stewartb's thoughts, The carburetor on the Cessna 180 engine is mounted at the firewall end of the engine. The fuel/air mixture is generated at this point, divided into two (equal or not?) portions which then travels along a constant diameter distribution system to the front of the engine. Along the way portions of the mixture is drawn into each cylinder. There is a smaller diameter cross tube at the front of the engine to balance the pressure in the two distribution paths. My question is this since these pipes are of constant diameter, does the same fuel/air mixture enter each cylinder? I think not. I would think that in order to have even mixture distribution the pipes should be reduced in diameter (tuned) as it passes each cylinder along the way. I am assuming that the cylinders would all be operating at different mixture ratios? Thus different temperature and efficiencies. With all of this in mind, I would think that a Bendix FI mod would be beneficial to fuel consumption rate and cylinder longevity. The Bendix fuel servo could be coupled with the IO-470 or IO-520/550 fuel distribution components.

    If I had a 180 I would be tempted to make this mod. Mike, please keep us informed as to your final conclusions. I, for one, am curious about your findings.
    N1PA

  21. #21

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    Well so far I have spoken with two folks, both have had or installed a Bendix injection. Very positive comment. I have just TV hung a 470R back on my plane, so I am now 2 years out from doing this mod, if it can still be done.

  22. #22
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    My 2 cents...I had a PPonk in an L-19 Bird Dog, and we could never get enough fuel to all the cylinders at once, even after a lot of carb mods. It ate up valves, slowly, but surely. Injection sounds like a darn good idea. The MA4-5 is great on an O-360 but a bit short for a PPONK. (Mine was a 520) The old pressure carbs on Bird Dogs were expensive but they ran a bit better, and more efficient than those converted to float carb, And you lose the carb ice problem. People complained they didn't always idle well, but I could live with that as I don't spend a lot of time at idle.

  23. #23

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    I put one on my 180J P-Ponk motor 5 yrs ago and no regrets. When I had Steve build me up a motor and told him to put the gears in for the fuel pump. Bought Bendix parts from D&G supply and Bob up in alaska did the 337 for install, had local shop do install. I had a carb on for bout 50 hrs and did the switch, egt's run 30-50 degree spread instead of 150, fuel consumption down a little and no carb ice. Priceless

  24. #24
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    RSA Fuel Injection STC for C180/182

    Quote Originally Posted by Tractor flyer View Post
    I put one on my 180J P-Ponk motor 5 yrs ago and no regrets. When I had Steve build me up a motor and told him to put the gears in for the fuel pump. Bought Bendix parts from D&G supply and Bob up in alaska did the 337 for install, had local shop do install. I had a carb on for bout 50 hrs and did the switch, egt's run 30-50 degree spread instead of 150, fuel consumption down a little and no carb ice. Priceless
    Update with some additional information. I spoke with Russ at D&G and have also spoken with Fred Dyen who used to be with the A&P program at UAF. Fred performed this modification on a few airplanes in Fairbanks. I have spoken to the owner of one of those planes and he is quite happy. I have attached some of the information I have been able to dig up for those of you who might be interested. At this point i am waiting on a response from Peter at Precision, with any luck at all this project will move forward for me in the not to distant future.

    Dale

  25. #25
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalec View Post
    Update with some additional information. I spoke with Russ at D&G and have also spoken with Fred Dyen who used to be with the A&P program at UAF. Fred performed this modification on a few airplanes in Fairbanks. I have spoken to the owner of one of those planes and he is quite happy. I have attached some of the information I have been able to dig up for those of you who might be interested. At this point i am waiting on a response from Peter at Precision, with any luck at all this project will move forward for me in the not to distant future.

    Dale
    Where is Fred Dyen located these days? Fred did a number of these kinds of mods, most of which worked really well.

    MTV

  26. #26
    dalec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Where is Fred Dyen located these days? Fred did a number of these kinds of mods, most of which worked really well.

    MTV
    Blue Ridge Community College
    Weyers Cave, Virginia

    He is an AMT professor there. He was a lot of help in tracking a bunch of this down.

  27. #27
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    I was asked to move an older C 180 on 2870s from Willow Lake to Lake hood one time and the guy that droped me off(not the actual owner) says, oh by the way This plane is injected, and and then drove off, I didnt think much about it at the time, but wondered if it just had maybe
    Someone had stuck a 185 engine in it?? So when I opened it up it rocketed up onto the step even though it was a very hot day for Alaska, plane had a seaplane prop and it was turing it up almost 2800 and sounded pretty much like a 185, climbed out like one too. Anyway I was fairly convinced it was just that. However the guy that came down to pick me up in Anchorage was a personal friend of the actual owner,
    And he imeadiatly says hows that old 180 perform? And I responded about the best one I think I ever flew, so I asked him what engine is actually in there? He told me an IO470! So of course I asked is that legal, and he laughed and says "I dont think so........... but it sure works good dont it?" Nice outfit, Cessna should have offered it in those early lightweight 180s and just called it a "Deluxe" before they called it a 185!

  28. #28
    dalec's Avatar
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    Turbo

    That performance description is really encouraging to hear. With any luck this mod will be compete on mine, just in time for float season this year. Once complete I will get a pirep out. most of all I am just hoping for more even cylinder temps, no carb ice and a slight improvement in fuel economy. More to come.

    Dale

  29. #29
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Dale,
    Well good luck with it , I think that 180 was either a 62/63 Model and they are still pretty LIGHT airplanes, with that motor it flew like a 56, on the controls but had outradious power with that engine, I think your going to be very pleased with it if your airplane isn't HEAVY, I have a couple of friends with the carbureted 185 engines in them that are later 180s that are much heavier airplanes and they go good to. But not like that combo of a pre 64 airframe and the injected engine! Very very nice outfit. Of course being on 2870 floats didn't hurt either.................

  30. #30
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity, what kind of $$ to convert to an injected 470?

  31. #31

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    If anyone is interested I have a o470 K bendix injected Stc'd 260 Hp. sitting. Will sell firewall forward.Make a offer am open to anything.


    394-3579

  32. #32

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    Just wondering if any of you guys have any information on pponk converted 470s with injection. I have a 470 Dyen converted to the RSA, but the motor is getting old and I'd like to go with the pponk conversion on O/H. Even just a tail # I could pull the 337s for my IA. My plane is referenced above as being converted in 97.

  33. #33

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    p.ponk IO-470-50

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskan9974 View Post
    Just wondering if any of you guys have any information on pponk converted 470s with injection. I have a 470 Dyen converted to the RSA, but the motor is getting old and I'd like to go with the pponk conversion on O/H. Even just a tail # I could pull the 337s for my IA. My plane is referenced above as being converted in 97.
    I am installing RSA fuel injection in my Cessna 180, which has an O-470-50 engine as we speak (type). I have an approved Field Approval, but the work has not been accomplished yet so it has not been filed. There has been several O-470-50s converted to RSA fuel injection and I have copies of the 337s. Unfortunately the 337's are somewhat vague and could lead to expensive "errors". I am not familiar with the Dyen conversion and would like to get more information. All the previous 337s I have use the old Bendix STC as reference. Unfortunately, the STC included a kit and many of the part numbers are kit specific making part identification difficult. The STC data also is contradictory in several places. Please contact me PM for more info.
    Thanks Rick-CAS, cervelorod thanked for this post

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    I am installing RSA fuel injection in my Cessna 180, which has an O-470-50 engine as we speak (type). I have an approved Field Approval, but the work has not been accomplished yet so it has not been filed. There has been several O-470-50s converted to RSA fuel injection and I have copies of the 337s. Unfortunately the 337's are somewhat vague and could lead to expensive "errors". I am not familiar with the Dyen conversion and would like to get more information. All the previous 337s I have use the old Bendix STC as reference. Unfortunately, the STC included a kit and many of the part numbers are kit specific making part identification difficult. The STC data also is contradictory in several places. Please contact me PM for more info.
    It matters not what the "other" approvals say. What matters is what is said on your field approval. If it is vague you have a lot of leeway in how you do it.
    N1PA
    Likes Dave Calkins, mike mcs repair liked this post

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    It matters not what the "other" approvals say. What matters is what is said on your field approval. If it is vague you have a lot of leeway in how you do it.
    I agree. But leeway doesn't mean right way.

  36. #36

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    I’m looking forward to a pirep!

  37. #37
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
    I agree. But leeway doesn't mean right way.
    You have copies of several approvals. How do you know that any of them is the right way? You now have the leeway to be certain that you do it the right way without being restricted to what may not be the right way. You may find that if you do something a little bit different that it is a better way. You are fortunate to not be restricted to one way. If you are not comfortable in accomplishing the mission yourself, then get someone with more knowledge and understanding of the system to help you.
    N1PA

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I’m looking forward to a pirep!
    ]
    Me, too! An IO470-50 would do the trick for my piggish bird.

  39. #39

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    Precision Airmotive O-470 fuel injection STC docs

    Just to add info to the mix, here are the Precision Airmotive STC docs that I got today from Peter @ Precision Airmotive. I can't get it to upload more clearly than it is, but I can send you the originals via email if you want them.
    J
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 02-06-2018 at 12:42 PM.

  40. #40

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    I can’t post the pdf’s, but I talked to Precision Airmotive and they emailed me much cleaner copies of their paperwork.

    it would be nice to see a newer field approval with some updated part numbers. As I go through the PA paperwork, a lot of the pieces are NLA.

    rod
    63 C180E

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