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wheel landing

The other day the guy flying the 802 Air Tractor landed and it was about perfect wheel landing. I told him I should have made a video and posted it on Youtube. I also told him it looked about like a glassy water float plane which it did.
 
How come you instructor types havent set your GoPros on a tripod and made some instructional videos of the 3pt and wheel landings, with some narrations as things are happening? Learned how to land in rocks that way.
 
My instructor was a retired WWII fighter pilot, mostly flew P-47 and P-51's and had thousands of B-18 time. His comment to me, as I he was giving me my tail-wheel endorsement was this "Wheel landing are only for showing off" that pretty well summed it up for me. I do understand what is being discussed here and agree that there is a place for the different types of landings. But everytime I am on short final in a tailwheel airplane that quote pops into my head. Funny how things stick with you over time.

Cheers,
Dan
 
Funny, my ww2 era high time ( 30k) pilot that gave my tail wheel sign off 30 years ago told me the opposite. He said to come in tailwheel low and stick it on the main gear, he said better control that way. That was after mastering 3 point landings. Those two guys must of had different instructors.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!
 
My instructor was a retired WWII fighter pilot, mostly flew P-47 and P-51's and had thousands of B-18 time. His comment to me, as I he was giving me my tail-wheel endorsement was this "Wheel landing are only for showing off" that pretty well summed it up for me. I do understand what is being discussed here and agree that there is a place for the different types of landings. But everytime I am on short final in a tailwheel airplane that quote pops into my head. Funny how things stick with you over time.

Cheers,
Dan

well, there may be differences between latter day warbird pilots and the "originals" who flew those planes, but you sure don't see three point landings performed much by warbird pilots in fighters (or bombers) these days. Including those flying T 6 s, which by all accounts are more challenging to land than most fighters of the era.

I've flown with two WW II pilots over the years and both advocated wheel landings for many conditions.

MTV
 
Funny, my ww2 era high time ( 30k) pilot that gave my tail wheel sign off 30 years ago told me the opposite. He said to come in tailwheel low and stick it on the main gear, he said better control that way. That was after mastering 3 point landings. Those two guys must of had different instructors.

Posted Using the Free SuperCub.Org Android App!

I started out learning in a cub and my instructor beat wheel landings into my for head on gusty days. Once I could handle 3 point every 3rd or 4th landing was wheeled on. He would wait till final and tell me which he wanted, slow and controlled 3 point or add 15mph and wheel it on and hold tail up till it wouldn't fly. To me a wheel landing was carry extra speed for control and plant it firmly on the ground tail high and negative AOA. Timmy showed me a different type of landing that is still wheeled on but not what I consider a normal wheel landing. Set up slow to 3pt and roll it on the mains the second it touches or 6" up before it touches. Slow approach, slow touchdown, negative AOA to keep it on the ground and a great view but not a wheel landing in my book. Its a wheeled on 3pt that gives you better control without the extra speed.

WWII pilots will differ. Navy trained will 3pt. AAF liked fast wheel landings because you could get a lot of guys on the ground quick because touchdown speed was same as speed on final.

Glenn
 
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On this same subject (in a round about way). What is the max xwind you will land in on a normal basis. I know we have guys on here who say they will accept any xwind as long as it is under 80kts or so, but how about the average pilot on here. What is the max xwind you consider acceptable in a Cub.
 
I started out learning in a cub and my instructor beat wheel landings into my for head on gusty days. Once I could handle 3 point every 3rd or 4th landing was wheeled on. He would wait till final and tell me which he wanted, slow and controlled 3 point or add 15mph and wheel it on and hold tail up till it wouldn't fly. To me a wheel landing was carry extra speed for control and plant it firmly on the ground tail high and negative AOA. Timmy showed me a different type of landing that is still wheeled on but not what I consider a normal wheel landing. Set up slow to 3pt and roll it on the mains the second it touches or 6" up before it touches. Slow approach, slow touchdown, negative AOA to keep it on the ground and a great view but not a wheel landing in my book. Its a wheeled on 3pt that gives you better control without the extra speed.

WWII pilots will differ. Navy trained will 3pt. AAF liked fast wheel landings because you could get a lot of guys on the ground quick because touchdown speed was same as speed on final.

Glenn

Glenn, the Navy teaches controlled crashes, not landings. Cubs aren't that tough. But, the procedure you describe that Tim taught you is precisely the "tail low wheel landing" we've been espousing.

Now, let's talk about that landing a Cub 15 mph over the stall. Yes, you CAN do that, but why would you want to??? All you're doing is wearing out wheel bearings and tires.

Your instructor was advocating higher speeds for gusty crosswinds, right? Okay, consider that the "standard" recommendation for speed to be added to approach speed for gusty crosswinds is to add half the gust factor to your normal approach speed. So, if you have a direct crosswind at 10, gusting to 15 knots, by that reckoning, you'd add about 3 knots to your approach speed. Let's just be a little extreme, and say we'll add 5 knots, just to be on the "safe side".

That's a far cry from a fifteen knot higher approach speed. So, let's say that you've got a ten knot crosswind with a ten knot gust factor.....or maybe a fifteen knot crosswind with a fifteen knot gust factor. By conventional wisdom, you'll still only need to add 7 or 8 knots to your approach speed. And, I'm here to tell you that a fifteen knot crosswind with a fifteen knot gust factor (fifteen knots, gusting to 30 knots in other words) is a REALLY ugly crosswind, and I wouldn't even try to tackle that kind of crosswind.

Point is, I see people wearing out tires and wheel bearings all the time, for no good reason. Further, you'll never get hurt till you touch the ground.....the faster you're going when you touch, the uglier the screw up is going to be if anything goes wrong....locked up brake, etc.

FWIW,

MTV
 
The point I was trying to make is that a typical wheel landing is tail high into a headwind to keep the AOA negative on a gusty day. Thats what i was taught and thats what i watch the P51 and others do at Oshkosh. To me a tail low approach is a 3pt attitude pushed over to a wheel landing. As for CW, up to about 25 mph, above that I'm landing cross runway. Who adds 15 mph to a wheel landing, that day I came back home last month and was fired walled doing 90 airspeed on short final and the gps showing 40mph gs, I would have kept it fire walled all the way down if it hadn't calmed down 100' up. I don't do wheel landings in a CW. I don't have flaps so it's a wing into the wind full slip about 3 mph over stall on and off the throttle till the upwind tire and TW grabs the ground and 2pt to taxi. Don't know if its right but it works for me. Shoot away 8)

Glenn
 
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I went out today and used your approach techniques. Best short field landings I have made to date. Also used the potato counts on takeoff and loved it. Thank you!

adding 15 mph for a wheel landing is nuts! Who teaches that?

Eddie
That is excellent I am glad you found them helpful. Thank you for the feed back!
 
I'm just starting to learn wheel landings, after doing 3 pts exclusively. My instructor had me at 55 mph on final for 3 pts, 59 (60) mph for wheel landings. Previously I had used 50 mph on final, but the descent profile was pretty steep. The higher approach speeds give me a nicer descent. But that 4 - 5 mph faster for a wheel landing seems like jet speed! Yes, I got my TW endorsement without having done a wheel landing - I think the instructor didn't like doing them and didn't want to teach them.

Hanging out at the airport the other day after my BFR and attempted wheel landings, heard this from the old fart's corner: Wheel landings are better than sex (and everyone agreed). Never heard anyone say that about 3 pt landings, so I guess that settles the question of which is better, eh?

Anne.
 
The "Old Fart's" corner must have been occupied by women because no man I know would say that ending a flight is better than sex. :wink:
 
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"no man would say that ending a flight is better than sex"
I think the key part is "ending a flight", because while ending a flight doesn't take that--I mean a flight can last longer than---nevermind:lol:
 
Did you fly out west Anne?

No, airlined it out there. Weather, lack of recent flight experience, and that I *had* to be there by a certain date, all came together to bring me to my senses. I still want to do this flight, though. I'll see how the rest of the summer after Oshkosh stacks up.

Anne.
 
The "Old Fart's" corner must have been occupied by women because no man I know would say that ending a flight is better than sex. :wink:

It was about 50/50. Knowing the originator, I think he was referring more to the finesse of the operation (but I could be wrong). The way he was talking about wheel landings in the plane during the lesson, I'm glad my airplane is tandem.

Anne.
 
And umm, Anne, you still owe us a Trip Report from the WSS. Saw some nice soaring XC flight traces posted on the OLC, and great reports from the local Liars Bench attributed to attendees :smile:

Thanks. cubscout
 
Hopefully the statute of limitations is up. As I understand it, wheel landings, along with full stall, crosswinds, and go-arounds, are part of what an instructor signs off as proficient.

However, if he had you doing approaches at 50, he was probably a pretty good instructor.

I teach approaches the same way whether the end will be wheel, full stall, or something close to both. In the beginning I have the student add just a touch of power, and feel for the runway. I demonstrate how to turn a full stall landing into a wheel landing. They can practice that after the sign off.

I had one student discover that wheel landings at 60 were smoother, and she stopped doing full stalls. I made her stop wheel landings until she once again mastered the tailwheel first landing.

Flying Cubs is the most fun you can have with your clothes on. I would not go any farther than that.
 
And umm, Anne, you still owe us a Trip Report from the WSS. Saw some nice soaring XC flight traces posted on the OLC, and great reports from the local Liars Bench attributed to attendees :smile:

Thanks. cubscout

Thanks for asking, cubscout! This was at Minden NV, our annual WSPA (Women's Soaring Pilots Association) seminar, June 15-19 this year. It was a great week, with my highest ever flight in a glider (or a small airplane for that matter) at 13,000', my longest glider flight (2:08 hrs), and the highest performance glider I've flown yet (a Duo Discus), all in one flight skirting Lake Tahoe while looking for mountain wave (we didn't find it). Flying gliders has made me more aware of the finer points of coordination and landing finesse, and besides, it's pretty cool to stay up courtesy of Mother Nature!

#1: Above the Pine Nuts finding some awesome thermals. #2: Jim & Jackie Payne talking about the Perlan Project. #3: Four Ladies Love Taildraggers at the WSPA seminar in front of a Libelle (a taildragger glider!). #4: The mountain wave Thursday evening that got us all excited about flying Friday morning, but unfortunately it had mostly calmed down overnight. #5: In the Duo Discus peeking over the rim at Lake Tahoe.
 

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Yes, a Libelle. She was flown down from Air Sailing in NV to Minden. Belongs to a friend of mine, flown down by another friend (the one on the right in the picture). Nice XC in a glider over the mountains.

Anne.
 
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