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Thread: ADS-B Mandate

  1. #1
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    ADS-B Mandate

    I wish to comment on Mr Huerta's view regarding citizen privacy.
    "Aviation Week asked FAA Administrator Michael Huerta about ADS-B privacy issues at EAA AirVenture. The administrator said that people with mobile phones know that they can be tracked. So, ADS-B users may have to adapt to changing privacy standards as new technologies emerge."
    http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/ad...ieldname--id~~

    The FAA has mandated that all aircraft in certain airspace are required to have ADS B out by a certain date. However, Mr Huerta fails to acknowledge that mobile phones are optional. It is clear that "He is from the government and he is here to help". He is the same person who spoke on another thread that "he is working on the 3rd class medical issue". Heads up folks. As I have expressed before, "the camel's nose is under the tent".
    N1PA
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    That's funny coming from a guy who left Ak to live in Mass!

    If I didn't have Find My Phone tracking capability I might not have a cell phone for very long.
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    Have not paid any attention to this. Last time I was certified aircraft we would just squawk 1200 and that was a very good idea like nav lights. Then altitude etc still a good idea. I have passively seen the ADS b posts but don't know what it means. I figured ADS b just added speed and direction which would be a good thing? BUT is there a serial number or "N" number attached to this??

  4. #4
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qsmx440 View Post
    ....I figured ADS b just added speed and direction which would be a good thing? BUT is there a serial number or "N" number attached to this??
    ADS B out is always transmitting a code which identifies the airplane. This is like the Mode S transponder. Each airplane is assigned a code number when it is registered. That code is entered into the setup of the Mode S and/or ADS B out. Look up your registration on the FAA site. You will see your assigned code. ATC reads that code from the Mode S or ADS B out. They know who you are.
    N1PA

  5. #5
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    That's funny coming from a guy who left Ak to live in Mass!
    That might be funny, if it were true.
    N1PA

  6. #6

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    My airplane is required to have numbers on it. And an ID data plate on the exterior. Occasionally I use a transponder code that links my location and identification. I always have an Iridium tracker going. I employ 406 ELTs and their registered info advantage as well as the accurate location identification capability. I choose to be tracked and located. My aviation "privacy" never existed.

  7. #7
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    stewartb, If you choose to be electronically tracked, that is your prerogative. I do not so choose. And, I resent the government telling me that I must be tracked, just because I like to fly a small airplane. I can go anywhere that I want with my sailboat and no one cares. I can drive my car and my pickup anywhere, without being electronically tracked. That is my choice, not some bureaucrat's choice. I do understand the wisdom of being tracked in Alaska. That is an important safety capability. But that is a personal choice not mandatory.
    N1PA
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  8. #8
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    I currently have a Bendix/king KT56C mode C transponder. We hangar under the Minneapolis Mode C Vail which, as I read the rules means that we will have to have ADS-B (out) in 2020. Bendix makes a plug & play ADS-B transponder, the KT74, that just slips into the same tray - $2800. That probably will be the route I take.
    "Crazyass passion is the staple of life and persistence its nourishing force. Without them, you cannot cross the trail" - Rinker Buck


  9. #9
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Mode C is always transmitting a code that identifies you too. Nothing new here really except for the fact that Mode S transmits your position from your GPS - which is good to within 6 feet - far, far more accurate than a radar return for mode C which transmit your altimeter encoder altitude - which can be off by hundreds of feet.

    They've known who you are for a very long time.


    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    ADS B out is always transmitting a code which identifies the airplane. This is like the Mode S transponder. Each airplane is assigned a code number when it is registered. That code is entered into the setup of the Mode S and/or ADS B out. Look up your registration on the FAA site. You will see your assigned code. ATC reads that code from the Mode S or ADS B out. They know who you are.

  10. #10
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mode C does not identify you unless you have made a communication with ATC to assign that particular code to you for that particular flight. Mode S does identify you without any ATC communication. GPS is not part of this equation.
    N1PA
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    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    I have a number of GPS screen shots up on my web site from my ADS-B transceiver (in my other plane) with traffic overlay on my GPS. In a couple of the screen shots you can see that I selected the traffic to show all the information available. For those transmitting ADS-B info, I get their N number. For those not in the system just squawking 1200 Mode C or Mode S, I get very little specific information other than altitude, speed, heading, and direction from me. I'm not particularly thrilled with sending out who I am to the FAA either. But I do like picking up traffic information. It helps me know where to look for some traffic, but is no replacement for the Mk 1 eyeballs.

    -CubBuilder



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    Information displayed by aircraft providing ADS-B output.


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    I selected the two aircraft close together in this screen shot for more information.



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    The top aircraft is a bizjet leaving SAF and squawking Mode S, but no extended squitter data. He hasn't switched over to Center yet.
    The second aircraft was a C-172 shooting practice approaches squawking Mode C. Both of these aircraft are being picked up by ABQ Center and the data rebroadcast via ADS-B.

  12. #12

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    The FAA video about ADS-B in the Gulf of Mexico demonstrates the remote area advantages well. The congested area advantages aren't difficult to imagine.

    http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/implement...programs/adsb/

  13. #13
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Pretty Cool
    "Crazyass passion is the staple of life and persistence its nourishing force. Without them, you cannot cross the trail" - Rinker Buck


  14. #14
    Speedo's Avatar
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    We use ADS-B in/out in Southwest Alaska as part of the Capstone system. It's good stuff, especially when the Wx is stinky and a bunch of planes are converging on the same airport. It was useful in locating a plane wreck recently. Receiving Wx radar is nice, too.

    One of the negatives is that it does broadcast altitude, and I know some companies operating out here monitor their pilots' routes and altitudes: the boss has called some guys wanting an explanation for certain altitudes. That being said, the pilot has to enter the barometric pressure himself, and if he makes a mistake (e.g., he's off by one inch) he can avoid having to explain himself.

    Isn't ADS-B an element in the overall plan to eliminate ground-based radar?
    Speedo

  15. #15
    little wing's Avatar
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    ADS-B could have been great if it had true anonymity. However, we have 320,000,000 people that absolutely beg to be controlled, tracked, traced, have their comms recorded, manipulated, and executed without due process by 535 narcissist, bribed, blackmailed, and elitist persons that are able to see no farther than tomorrow's bank statement or the power they can milk from the system.

    Nearly 200 years with a mindset of rugged individualism and self reliance that made this the best country in the world, ruined in two generations. Can't blame snakes (politicians) for acting like snakes, the root of the problem is no further than the nearest mirror. Automatic, Dependent, SURVEILLANCE, Broadcast, many of their favorite words grouped in one convenient acronym.

    The thing I don't understand is the mindset that is ok with this. Well they've already been doing it anyway. WHAT??? If that weird neighbor has already forced himself on your wife once, might as well let him keep coming back for more huh???

    DHS controls the boarder agencies and they control TSA, how is it that U.S. citizens tolerate being groped, irradiated, and their personal property "tossed" and sometimes stollen at the airport, while self proclaimed authorities (not public servants) invite all "children," up to the age of 31, to enter our country illegally, without any knowledge of criminal history, proof of who they are, or regard of whether or not they would even be able to be self sustainable. No,,,we give them hand outs and buy them plane tickets, with which they have to show nothing to the TSA for flight other than their "promise to appear." A piece of paper that could be handed to anyone and reused for air travel over and over again, no photo ID. Why do the citizens have to show government issued ID? We need to quit being apathetic slaves and demand the return of our Bill of Rights. The SURVEILLANCE is only for the slave/citizen who pays for the tech that is used to control them. Technology is great, but almost invariably ends up being used for the wrong reasons by the so called good guys.

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    From what I can see this thread may end up in R&R before long. You still have a choice regarding ADS-B. You can choose not to enter airspace that requires ADS-B, then you never have to install it in your A/C. I for one can definitely see the safety benefits in congested airspace. As far as it broadcasting your N number--- what is the first thing you do when you contact ATC? You personally broadcast (with your own voice) your N number! Whats the difference?

  17. #17

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    Now having said all of the above, I do agree that the info broadcasted on the system should be encrypted so that only aviation authorities/other aircraft have access to said info. I dont belive that the general public (or certain non-aviation oriented "organisations") should be able to access it. Other A/C and ATC need the info for safety, traffic seperation, etc. Those other people can piss off.

    P.S. sorry for the second post: for some reason i was unable to edit the first one

  18. #18
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This depicts where ADS B Out will be required starting 1/1/2020.
    I live, and keep my planes, in the area defined as the 30 nm veil of the Class B airspace for KBOS. I have been flying in this location since the days of the ADCOCK range and the existence of many more airports. (stewartb, I would have been happy being in Alaska, but this is where my life's fortune has taken me.) I used to be able to fly into Logan by calling them on HF and listening on LF in my hand propped $400 Tcraft with a wind driven generator. I used to be able to fly into Logan, taxi up to Northeast Airlines passenger terminal, pick up my pay check and fly home. Without a transponder. Those days are long gone. Over time my flying activities have been squeezed and squeezed. I used to fly out of a large square shaped airport (PLY) which had several grass/dirt runways. Now a lot of jet planes use the (non tower) "field". During the years before the Class B, there was a lot of small airplane flying for the fun of it. Gradually, over time with the FAA "helping", the noose has been tightened. (The FAA office used to be actually located at a NORDO (OWD) airport). Now they don't even answer their phone. Now there is so little flying activity, I actually stop what I'm doing to marvel at the flying machines when they occasionally pass by. Now, effective 1/1/2020, those few airplanes will be required, under the pain of big brother (FAA & congress), to be equip with fancy $$$ electronic devices which are supposed to keep them from running into each other. In addition, these mandated devices, will send an identity tag to the government data base which will provide evidence to prosecute (big brother is watching) should any small indiscretion take place. Now, all of these little airplanes are flying outside of the space which is reserved for the big jets (the jets are usually kept at 5,000/10,000 feet or more) yet they must transmit their information to those jets and ATC. I can just see the ATC wondering what those airplanes are doing, going down to ground level and back up (like mosquitoes in a puddle) in many locations where there are not any airports. We have a lot of bodies of water which are suitable for seaplanes in this Class B veil. One of the few freedoms remaining. SHHH!

    Now here is something else which I wish to point out to you. Go to this FAA site: http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/implement...ms/adsb/faq/#4 You will see this paragraph: "The ADS-B Out rule does not apply in the airspace defined in items 1 and 2 above for any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders." This is the reason that my Cub has never had an "electrical system". An electrical system is defined by the FAA as having an "engine driven electrical source". Unfortunately, for me, my 185 has an electrical system. So, I am going to be required to spend money, reduce the useful load, identify myself every time I slip the surly bonds of earth, so that I can be identified flying around alone in no mans land doing touch and goes in my numerous ponds. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that ATC will have the ability to turn off the clutter which they deem a nuisance.

    Now IF this ADS B business was voluntary, you would not have heard from me. Please don't send this to R&R. There has been a lot of talk about the free benefits of ADS B In. ADS B In, is voluntary/optional. There are numerous benefits for all. Go for it if you wish. My rambling is meant to be informational. Please accept it as such.
    N1PA

  19. #19
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    One more thing. Read this:
    http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Air-Tra...roadcast-ADS-B

    "Unlike most rulemaking activities which are safety based, the basis of the mandate is to support the FAA’s Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen). The FAA indicates that the mandate will not greatly increase or decrease safety, but is necessary to move forward with NextGen."

    The FAA has spent $Billions on this project to enhance their job security! Do not be fooled that they have listened to any of the public's input to this project. I have attended those hearings. Their minds were made up before the hearing took place. It was obvious.
    N1PA

  20. #20

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    More of the concept is explained here.

    http://ourairspace.org/FreeFlight.html

  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    It has all the appearance of the gov's desire to lower the floor of positive controlled airspace from 18,000 to sea level and the merger of all IFR traffic with VFR traffic. Eventually there will be no difference. The pot with the frog is slowly coming to a boil!
    N1PA

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    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by little wing View Post
    ADS-B could have been great if it had true anonymity.
    I can't speak for other installations, but my installation has a toggle switch with an off position should I choose anonymity over traffic and weather information. If I had my ADS-B in and out as separate packages, I could just shut off the out. In my SC, I have an ADS-B weather only receiver that links to the GPS. That is danged handy and 100% anonymous right up until I broadcast my registration number on the radio.

    FWIW, I have been flying with the ADS-B weather receiver for roughly 2 1/2 years now. I was concerned about using the weather receiver as it seems like the weather updates are slow and the NEXRAD radar overlay gets quite stale before it updates. However, this summer we have had a lot of active weather here in the Southwest. What I have found is that when there is active weather on the NEXRAD radar, the weather Radar updates are broadcast nearly continuous and rarely go more than 3 minutes stale. It has been quite useful for picking my way around weather and to know whether the home airport is open or under a heavy thunderstorm before it's in sight. It's good enough that one time it was showing a cell covering one end of the home airport. Sure enough, when I landed, one end of the runway was dry and the other end was wet. However, this is a ground based broadcast, so unless you are close to the broadcast tower, you often times lose coverage at low altitudes.

    -CubBuilder

  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    I can't speak for other installations, but my installation has a toggle switch with an off position should I choose anonymity over traffic and weather information. If I had my ADS-B in and out as separate packages, I could just shut off the out.
    -CubBuilder
    Now THAT is a good idea. I did not know that was possible. What make and model are your In and Out units?
    N1PA

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Now THAT is a good idea. I did not know that was possible. What make and model are your In and Out units?
    But, is it legal? Bear in mind the transponder rule: If you have a transponder installed, it must be on at all times while in controlled airspace.

    i wonder if the FAA isn't going to amend that to include ADS-B out.

    MTV

  25. #25
    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    Weather only in the Cub is a SkyRadar-L unit. No longer produced, but readily available used. ADS-B Out and In for my other plane is the SkyGuard Vision-Pro. Remember the ADS-B Out is the 2020 mandate and for certificated aircraft will require a TSO'd installation. ADS-B In is not a requirement and you are allowed to use any hand held or portable unit you desire, or none at all.

    The Vision-Pro unit is both In and Out. For $200 more I could have bought them as separate units so could shut off the Out without shutting down weather and traffic in if I choose. My installation is not TSO'd as my planes are both Experimental. SkyGuard plans to offer a TSO "upgrade" kit once they receive TSO certification from the FAA. Supposedly it will contain an FAA Blessed WAAS GPS Puck (the current one is WAAS, but not FAA blessed), a replacement UAT Out antenna that meets TSO installation standards, and a software patch/upgrade that will signal TSO compliance. Yes, your output will tell the FAA whether your installation is TSO compliant or not. For those of us with big brother paranoia, big brother FAA is once again overstepping the bounds of what is necessary, or even proper.

    -Cub Builder

  26. #26
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    ..... If you have a transponder installed, it must be on at all times while in controlled airspace.
    MTV
    True, but they will not know who you are unless you voluntarily tell them.
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    i wonder if the FAA isn't going to amend that to include ADS-B out.
    Good question, though the ADS B Out will still be required to be turned on in the specified airspace.
    N1PA

  27. #27

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    I lean left in a lot of ways, but agree with most above - we are starting to endure a level of government surveillance that is unprecedented, and probably unnecessary. Every time I pedal my bicycle from the hangar to the bathroom I am recorded and photographed. I know that, because they got mad when I used a gate code that was not mine.

    General aviation is half what it was in 1977 by actual count, and I do not believe corporate and airline flying has made up the difference. "See and be seen" is probably safer now than it was then - the current number of airplanes aloft, especially outside A, B, and C airspace, makes it less likely that a midair would occur.

    As of now, two of my airplanes have never had an engine driven electrical system. Maybe by 2020 I will no longer wish to fly upside down, and somebody else can make the Decathlon look like an Airbus. I have no desire to be continuously tracked by the government.

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  29. #29
    574cub's Avatar
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    My problem is that their slowly take our rights and privileges in the name of safety. Like skywagon made reference to frogs in water if they took them all at once we would jump out of the pot. So they do it slowly till we have none left. Who's to say that they wouldn't mandate it on everyone once it's in place. Like seatbelt's it started with the kids for safety then everyone. If your out bar hopping up knik at 200' are you going to get a call from the not so friendly faa. Saying you were flying at a unsafe altitude. As stated above with the company not the faa watching people are changing the pressure so they are reading higher then they are flying. You see or hear traffic at 1500' and your looking up when their coming at you at your same altitude. It was also said when you call atc your freely giving them your n#'s. That is true but the rarity I fly in controlled airspace I call to land or take off. When I'm free of their airspace that's the end of it I'm not being tracked my hole flight. I'm not paranoid I just enjoy my freedoms. It should be your right to choice if you want it or not. Just like any other mod or equipment on your plane. It's yours, you worked hard to earn the money to buy it, fly it and maintain it. It's not my business what you do with your plane and it's specially not the faa's. Luckily in Alaska Anchorage international is the only airspace it's mandated in. I don't have a transponder and I won't be putting the ads-b. If you want it I'm not knocking you for it that's your right. I just don't want it shoved down my throat by the faa.

  30. #30
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Mac may get a kick out of all of this while tooling around in his Baron. I used to do that for a living, couldn't turn around without the FAA being there, somewhere. I don't need them there now that I'm retired. I know enough to stay out of the way and keep out of trouble without their help.
    N1PA

  31. #31

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    I don't think that transponders are required in controlled airspace. Only in A, B, C, overflying B & C, and something about over 10,000 feet. Not required in D or E airspace.

  32. #32
    Darrel Starr's Avatar
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    Wrong -- transponders are required in Class D airspace.
    "Crazyass passion is the staple of life and persistence its nourishing force. Without them, you cannot cross the trail" - Rinker Buck


  33. #33
    574cub's Avatar
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    As far as I'm aware Tulsa Dave is right on the transponder and in 2020 ads-b requirements.

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    N1PA

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    ADS B out is always transmitting a code which identifies the airplane. This is like the Mode S transponder. Each airplane is assigned a code number when it is registered. That code is entered into the setup of the Mode S and/or ADS B out. Look up your registration on the FAA site. You will see your assigned code. ATC reads that code from the Mode S or ADS B out. They know who you are.
    They certainly do! I found out in an interesting way. A POTUS TFR has just been lifted at AUS and I was headed there to pick up a friend. I was trying to make radio contact with ATC but they weren't responding. I flew around just outside of AUS airspace for about 5 minutes waiting for the radio traffic to subside (lot's of private jets were trying to get out). Then ATC radioed me, with no indication they had heard my previous calls, telling me to head north for about 10 miles and orbit. About 15 minutes later they called again asking my intent. I responded but no answer. I switched radios, called them again, and now we were in two-way communication. My first radio had lost its mind and was receiving but not transmitting. Oh yes, with a mode s transponder they already know who we are if they want to.

  36. #36
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    stewartb, If you choose to be electronically tracked, that is your prerogative. I do not so choose. And, I resent the government telling me that I must be tracked, just because I like to fly a small airplane. I can go anywhere that I want with my sailboat and no one cares. I can drive my car and my pickup anywhere, without being electronically tracked. That is my choice, not some bureaucrat's choice. I do understand the wisdom of being tracked in Alaska. That is an important safety capability. But that is a personal choice not mandatory.
    Actually the government will be tracking cars soon. (They are now) Transponders to pay tolls are becoming mandatory, and they're talking about charging for mileage driven on a regular basis- through tracking. The head of Ford recently slipped when he said "we know what you're doing already." He had to try and retract that. As for boats, I have a little skiff in Ipswich Mass, and have noticed a huge increase in Police presence. --- This stinks to high heavens.

  37. #37
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Yep, I've made my last trip over the Mystic bridge. If they don't like cash, they will not see me. But let's not digress, we can bash the Taxachusetts moonbats all day long.
    N1PA

  38. #38
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    Wonder what kind of radar KAUS has? I work approach control at a airport with Class C airspace and we have no idea if a aircraft is adsb equipped. I would say they heard your call sign and just didnt answer because of higher priorities.

    I do know there is 2 Bonanzas here with adsb and the can see each others n numbers when they are flying around on their Garmin gps's.
    Likes pfm liked this post

  39. #39
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    kase, Is there to be an equipment upgrade in your facility for you to see the ADS B aircraft?
    N1PA

  40. #40
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    Location
    Sterling, Alaska
    Posts
    638
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    kase,
    Maybe. But I hadn't reported my position except on the initial call when I was 20 miles out, and they were covered up with traffic trying to get out (and in). They didn't contact me until I was flying around the edge of the airspace. Without having acknowledged my calls or giving me a transponder code, would/could they still have tracked my N-number on there screens?

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