I want to mount a 1.2lb halon fire extiguisher with my reach so if I have a fire under the panel or in the fuel lines I can put it out quickly. I have a Cub Crafters restored Cub with the map pocket on the right side. Obviously lots of room behind but if I am flying solo, that is of no help. I want to be able to reach it from the control seat. Where do most people mount extinguishers in the Cub? The entire bottle is about 3"x12".
I have found that installing it on the centre floor,pointing fore/aft is a good place.Place it well forward.If you have heel brakes,it is very easy to apply them.Just move your heels inwards until they touch the bottle,then push.
I have mine mounted on the floor board, just in front of the right brake cylinder.
This is a question which is pretty important, and one that I have worried about. For me, my worst nightmare would be being burned from a cockpit fire. This having been said, it would seem logical that the most likely place for a fire to originate would be in the engine compartment, and that it would spread aft around or through the firewall. Given that our feet are right up there under the instrument panel, near the firewall, it would make sense that the fire would be down below our shoulder level. Following this logic, it would seem suboptimal from a survival standpoint to have to reach DOWN to the area of heat/flames to retrieve a fire extinguisher. It would seem much better to have it suspended higher, rather than lower.
I have thought of attaching it to the crossbrace which runs above my head in a configuration which would attached to the side of the crossbar, rather than hanging below the crossbar. I recognize that should an accident occur in which the crossbrace comes crunching down one would not want much attached to that structure, but surely one could design a holder which might clamp to the crossbrace and hold it up?
Gee Bee, thanks for starting this thread!
Randy
If I sit in a comfortable position and then reach down to firmly touch the floor my eyes drop less than 6". That level of reach exceeds what would be required to employ a fire extinguisher that's attached to the floor. It is without question the best position for a fire extinguisher in a Cub in my opinion. As I've said before, you'll have a greater chance of needing quick access to the extinguisher while on the ground. In that scenario the floor is the best place as well. This topic has been discussed before on this site and one of the old threads has photographs that would help guide an owner who's doing a new install.
Here is something i posted before without much discussion Ill try again
Same car that i posted about in the suspension forum. Propane chevelle engineered by Johnny O.... http://www.mothers.com/04_community_...des_mo_01.html
The fire suppression system they used is automatic and from REEP. It was a small charged bottle and ran 1/4 in plastic line down the fuel and electrical lines..they ran one behind the dash and one around the interior and engine compartment. The line burns through and releases the chemical only where needed then I was told that it would self heal...The idea was that it wouldn't ruin the entire vehicle. fog out the driver and could use the remaining chemical if there were a secondary event.
http://www.reepfireprotection.com/
front of the seat frame or wing root
Thinking out loud again.....
we put map pockets on right side, why not a fire extinguisher pocket/hole on left? Fuel line might need to move some.... Bunch of free room back there.... Hmmmm...
Mine is on the x-brace... where I or the passenger can get it, and well out of the way of head banging...
sj
"Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
------------------------------------------
The problem I have with mounting it above my head is those things can and do come out of their mounts. Positive G or a hard landing may result in being knocked unconcious. Also I've seen fire extinguishers get loose then have an accidental discharge. While a halon would not be as bad as a dry chemical I've seen more than a few "sky obscured, 1/4 mile in white dust" cockpits in good VMC conditions LOL! If one was to put it above your head, I think a plastic break away seal needs to be put on the bail clip.
Mike, are you thinking recessed into the sidewall vs. a holder clamped onto the sidewall? The latter might interfere with the flap handle???Originally Posted by mike mcs repair
btw, what size halon extinguisher are you folks installing?
Steve, how did you attach the extinguisher to the X-brace?
I have a homemade map pocket, maybe lower than yours. My halon gizmo is mounted high on the right side panel, right below the bottom of the inst. panel. Only "illegal" thing is it's not easily accessible to a pass.
Other than that, I think best place is on the front of your seat somehow, if it won't interfere w/your stick!
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
yes, exactly, recessed into the unused space.....
Form should be secondary to function. Having climbed IN to a smoke filled cockpit to extract my extinguisher during a ground fire? The left side of an aircraft with a RH entry would be quickly disqualified. In that case you don't know where the fire is and you can't see yet you have to commit to entry. Wherever you place it, rehearse getting your hands on it and removing it from it's mount in an emergency. It isn't as easy as one may imagine. Especially with the mounts that engage slots in the extinguiser's neck. Those mounts only release the extinguisher in one direction. Not good when you're amped up and in a panic.
Probably not the answer you're looking for, but if you have a fire aboard concentrate on getting on the ground ASAP. Sideslip with full cross controls to keep the flames and smoke out of the cockpit and away from the firewall as much as possible, open doors an window and make like a brick. A system fire aboard a cub is probably not survivable for more than a few minutes. Use that time to get on the ground. Been there, done that. If you're the adventurous type, you can play with the extinguisher when you're close to the ground.
A dime to live; a place to fly.
I would agree with you that getting on the ground ASAP is most important and your first action in a fire is to look for a place to land. However, you have to fight a fire until that time. If it is electrical, halon sucks the heat right out of smoldering electrical. If it is fuel, it locks out O2 right now. How good is halon? The underwear bomber failed largely because the halon discharged cooled the ignitor. Lots of fuel, lots of electrical running through a Cub. If I have a fire, yes land ASAP, but it only takes 10 seconds to discharge a 1 pound halon bottle and that may give you the time you need to land.
I mount them to the front right seat leg with Adel clamps. SJ ,mounted his like this.
4CC Fire Ext.jpg
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Steve Pierce, thanks for the photos! I like that placement...that is where I'm going with mine... and I like the discussion here. I have never pulled the trigger on a halon extinguisher, so I appreciate the descriptions some have offered here.
Randy
What's holding the bottle onto the Adel clamps? How can you quickly release the bottle from the clamps?
Anne.
Baloney is still baloney, no matter how thin you slice it.
Is the 1.2 lb. halon extinguisher the size most of you are keeping in your Cubs? How long does one last,...ie how many years before you have to replace it? I've always kept one in the pocket on the back of the front seat, but never really cared for that location.
Jim W
The one I exhausted during my last fire was just over a pound and lasted about 5-6 seconds. It's alarming how quickly it becomes light and you know you're running out of time. The extinguisher will be empty before the smoke clears and during that time you aren't sure whether the fire's out or not. Not a good feeling. At those moments I'd like a 5# extinguisher. Or another small one.
Here are pics of extinguisher mounts. One in my old -12, one on my Cessna seat, and one in my pickup truck. All are 1.4# with pressure gauge. I've never been comfortable with the short duration of small extinguishers but we have to make compromises and this is mine. I have two more waiting to be installed. One will go on the passenger seat of the Cessna and the other in the canopy of the truck adjacent to the avgas tank. Seems anal, I know, but I've had fires in airplanes and trucks and it makes me happy to see those extinguishers within reach.
Cub extinguisher.JPGCessna extinguisher.JPGtruck extinguisher.jpg
Last edited by sierra bravo; 02-28-2013 at 01:40 PM.
I used my extinguisher on a C172 ground fire and owner never even bought me another new one. The student was over priming with the accelerator throttle pump and was not cranking the engine, filled the carb box and then bang!
Left Wing on my Aztec had a factory new replacement in 1966 from a fuel injection prime error. Logbooks are fun to read.
you might want to think about Halon in the cockpit. It not only displaces the O2 out of the fire area, but will displace the O2 from the entire cockpit.
If you empty the extinguisher in 10 seconds, what are you going to breath for that 10 seconds, and the couple of minutes after while it is still confined?
I know dry chemical is a bugger, but you will be plenty dead if you black out from Halon while trying to fight a fire and fly...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Geez, George, you are screwing this conversation all up with pertinent information like that!
Interesting that a fire needs oxygen and so does the pilot. This could be a cluster fu!.,k situation!
Good post!
Hey George,
How long can you breath smoke??
Go set off a dry chemical extinguisher in a confined space. In a cockpit it won't matter that you'll cough uncontrollably because you'll be blinded by the white powder. Sounds like fun.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...C%2020-42D.pdf
http://www.h3raviation.com/support_faq_2.htm
Last edited by sierra bravo; 02-28-2013 at 04:11 PM.
While I honor your arguments, and fully agree that dry chemical released would SUCK
Why I don't know is the difference in incapacitation between dry chemical and Halon. I have heard a storie of guys working on an engine nacelle (from above) and the halon got discharged. The mechanic was out and came tumbling off the wing within a second...
So my first reaction is how to survive. Airplanes are replaceable.
Maybe we need to build a cardboard cabin model and do a test... Hey Eaton, want to have some fun?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Read the AC I linked. It talks about halon and hypoxia and how to use halon in an airplane.
Last edited by sierra bravo; 02-28-2013 at 04:30 PM.
A Super Cub leaks enough air in the cabin for the halon concentration not to be a problem.
If you have ever practiced with a real fire and real extinguishers, once you try a halon bottle, you will never go back
Snippets of text from documents relevant to this discussion:
DOT/FAA/CT-86/5 Abstract
ct86-5.pdf
Hand held fire extinguishers (Halon 1211 and Halon 1301) were evaluated in a four passenger
Cessna Model 210C aircraft. The aircraft was operated in the FAA's Technical
Center airflow facility under simulated flight conditions. Extinguishers were
discharged without fires to determine the dissipation rate and toxicity levels of
Halon extinguishing agents. Agent concentrations dissipated rapidly. Analysis of
dose calculations demonstrated that 2.5 pound Halon 1211 and 3.0 pound Halon 1301
extinguishers were safe in the four-passenger test aircraft. Dose calculations for the
pilot were a maximum of 60 percent of the limit for Halon 1211, and maximum dose was
31 percent of the limit for Halon 1301. Stratification of the Halons together with
cabin ventilation resulted in safe conditions for the pilot.
Distribution of extinguishing agents under the instrument panel was investigated.
When the extinguishers were discharged on either the pilot's or the copilot's side,
four percent concentration was measured on the side opposite of the discharge of the
extinguishers. Extinguisher gas stratification was determined by measuring agent
levels on the cabin floor.
AC 20-42D Chapter 4-3
AC 20-42D.pdf
How to Prevent Hypoxia in an Unpressurized Aircraft. You can avoid life-threatening hypoxia (low oxygen) hazards that may result from the discharged halocarbon agent displacing air in unpressurized aircraft, by following the descent, ventilation, and supplemental oxygen guidance below. See the report referenced in appendix 3. paragraph 7m of this AC for information on the development of the guidance below.
a. Extinguish Fire and Ventilate Cabin. As mentioned above, make sure the fire is completely extinguished. To rid the cabin and flight deck of hazardous gases and smoke, ventilate all unpressurized aircraft compartments overboard at the highest possible rate allowed by established crew procedures for your particular aircraft. If the fire is not completely extinguished, or a smoldering fire exists, increasing airflow could promote fire growth
b. Descend to Lower Altitudes. Immediately descend at the maximum safe rate to 8,000 ft. or to an altitude that is as low as practicable. Descending dilutes agent concentration, lowers exposure to agent and combustion gases, and increases oxygen concentration. We recommend descending regardless of the amount of agent used, the aircraft: size, or ventilation rate. Aircraft with a maximum flying altitude of 12,500 ft. are protected from hypoxia, without the need for supplemental oxygen, by immediately descending as described above.
c. Use Supplemental Oxygen. Use of supplemental oxygen can prevent hypoxia. However, if a supplemental diluter demand personal oxygen system at CPAs above 12,500 ft., a nasal cannula up to and including 18,000 ft CPA, or an oral~nasal mask between 18,000 ft. and 25,000 ft. CPA are used, the user will not be fully protected from hypoxia, This lack of protection is because the oxygen flow control for these systems is based on pressure altitude, not oxygen partial pressure.
Excellent post, fancypants.
Thanks, happy to help. I know how frustrating it can be to come across a good thread years later and find that all of the links are dead.
Hand held fire extinguishers (Halon 1211 and Halon 1301) were evaluated in a four passenger
Cessna Model 210C aircraft. The aircraft was operated in the FAA's Technical
Center airflow facility under simulated flight conditions. Extinguishers were
discharged without fires to determine the dissipation rate and toxicity levels of
Halon extinguishing agents. *Agent concentrations dissipated rapidly*. Analysis of
dose calculations demonstrated that 2.5 pound Halon 1211 and 3.0 pound Halon 1301
*extinguishers were safe in the four-passenger test aircraft*. Dose calculations for the
pilot were a maximum of 60 percent of the limit for Halon 1211, and maximum dose was
31 percent of the limit for Halon 1301. Stratification of the Halons together with
cabin ventilation resulted in safe conditions for the pilot.
Without fires competing for oxygen? The bigger the fire the more Oxygen needed, the more halon too?
half a$$$
-- 8GCBC: 2100A, 31136.R, 8.566, C3000A
A&P, ATP, SES, CFII, MEI
Fly with me here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXI48e1heuo
Sort of like talking about fire hydrants...
you don't hardly need the things, they cause damage if you run into them
They are expensive and ugly, cause they need to be in the open so folks can find them...
but when you really need one, you really need it. An extinguisher is one item we hope not to need, but if we do, one may not be enough.
Thank you for the links and posts... I only have the story from others that watched the guy fall... but the stories are always from the worst case possible.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I remember being told you want to take a deep breath and hold it before pulling the trigger on Halon. Guess I better get one also, Ground fire would be the most likely cause of a fire would be my guess. When I was a kid I had a electrical fire in a old car once. It filled the car with black smoke instantly and your body wont let you breath it. I was parked in front of the house and fell out of the car and started scooping up snow and throwing it under the dash, that saved the car. All I did was put in a amp gauge, turned the key and melted half the wires, cheep cars! As a side note, I wounder how many cub flyers out there will remove the red paint to save weight ?
If I had to pick one plane, it would be the Super Cub. Im going to build one and try to find a 180 to put in it. I will need your help. Thanks
Recommended procedures to fight fires come and go as experience is gained and new materials and products become available. Heck, there was a time the procedure to fight a fire aboard freighters was to get on O2, depressurize and climb. (Don't know how effective that would be in real life, since we know of engine fires at 30,000'.)
There seems to be a bit of confusion about what Halon does. Halon does not displace or use up O2: simply put, it cuts the chemical chain of combustion. And yes, it's harmful above 7% concentration for more than 15 minutes, but very little of it needed to put out a fire - 'course the fire could reignite after the BCF dissipates.
A dime to live; a place to fly.
I was tpold to hyperventilate while you're grabbing the halon extinguisher, put fire out, then open the door/window & breathe again. Do these things inorder!
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
Who has the best deal on the bottle like SJ put in?
I shot a 1.2 lb. extinguisher several times on an electrical fire behind the panel in a Super Cub with the door open. Didn't breath a thing nor did Lee in the back. I used short bursts and got it out but had to shake and turn it upside down due to settling and age I guess (at least 10 yrs. old). Seemed like plenty to do what I had to do.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
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