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Oratex Fabric

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Drove over to Austin for a long weekend and got to thinking about the different things that gave me problems with Oratex. Probably the single biggest problem, other than not stretching the fabric tight enough, was preparation of the surface to be covered. First I tried covering bare alum, like a leading edge, and that did not work. You have to prime it.
Second, I tried to attach the fabric to a powder coated surface, that did not work either. You have to rough it up to get it to adhere.
My wings are covered in Stewarts so I did not get any experience on wing covering, but here is how I would go about it if starting a pair of wings.
I would cover the leading edge with quilting blanket first. The reason for this is that the Oratex if a very thin fabric and the leading edge alum joints would show through. You could tape them first, but every plane I have covered with the quilting blanket came out great and you never saw a joint nor did it ever crack at those joints. The Oratex fabric and adhesive is more than strong enough to hole with just being bonded to itself, and then a wide tape applied. This would make a great looking leading edge. Prime the trailing edge before covering also.
Just some thoughts I wanted to list before some of you start your covering.
 
Hi Lars,

Am I right in assuming there is not a difference in tapes such as the 'straight' and 'bias' tapes of Ceconite? and if so can a guy manipulate the 600 tapes better for use in compound radius areas?

Hi,
our tapes come either pinked-edge'ed or straight-edge, both have a glue backing. In my mind the straight-edge I would say is the technical best choice if no paint on top is used. I see the pinked edge as mainly a fashion-statement, an honoring or a homage to old technology that actually needed the pinked edge in order to work. Our glue is so strong that I dare say the pinked edge is not necessary...and thus no longer needed. All our tapes can be stretched and shrunk so they will fit around anything. Roger Peterson has proven that point nicely. It goes good with heat gun or iron for stretching and shrinking it.
See his videos here:
[h=1]Stretching Finished Tapes with Heat Gun[/h]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXtDtgmabi8
[h=1]Stretching Oratex Tape on Elevator using Iron[/h]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ealbBpBHRIQ
On building up the Antonov AN2 Biplane in Germany our(alright: my) German friends there were working fast and furious with lots of heat and wiping it with the (ztha) Felt Blade. Some glimpse of that work can be seen on my U-tube channel, which also has a lot of AK-GeneralAviation videos on there...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zCxnM_bqAk
or
as a video of covering a flap and some flying of it later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEhEwedAPgE
The tapes as "cold" tapes are about as stiff as paper, so its very easy to apply them straight. But when heated a bit they can be pulled and stretched around anything. Same is true for shrinking the material.
Maybe I should post some pictures???
Regards from Alaska!
 
First I tried covering bare alum, like a leading edge, and that did not work. You have to prime it.
Second, I tried to attach the fabric to a powder coated surface, that did not work either. You have to rough it up to get it to adhere.
Prime the trailing edge before covering also.
Just some thoughts I wanted to list before some of you start your covering.

Hi,
Correct surface preparation is a must. In harsh contrast to glues that are commonly used in the aviation industry, the proprietary patented Oratex glue does not contain any solvent. And it does not need any solvent to work better than other glues on the market on a surface that is correctly prepared. The surface has to be completely free of grease, oil, silicone remnants, or other contaminants. The best results on slick glossy surfaces much as powder coated surfaces and gloss paint surfaces are achieved if the surface is slightly scuffed and roughed up with the 3M wool or sand paper. If a wooden surface is used, the wood has to be either painted or varnished, and that surface in turn scuffed or roughed up. Otherwise it becomes necessary to apply multiple layers of glue in order to completely saturate the wooden surface with glue. Otherwise the wood would soak up the glue and there wouldn’t be sufficient surface glue left to facilitate the adhesion. In general, we would urge any aircraft owner anyway to varnish all wooden aircraft parts completely in order to assure the long term survival of the airplane. Some types of powder coating have such a slick surface that the glue will only sufficiently stick to it if the surface has been scuffed up. If the powder coated surface is prepared correctly, the glue will stick so well that it will be next to impossible to remove it by mechanical means. On some tests with some powder coating types we have been able to pull the powder coating off the metal with our glue. Nobody in his sane mind would install steel parts that are unpainted or not coated in an airplane and so we do advise not to try to apply the glue to any bare steel surfaces, only painted or powder coated ones. The same is of course true with magnesium parts (even though these have become extremely rare in recent day aircraft). Aluminum alloy extrusions that are used in aircraft should be painted with quality primer under all circumstances. Extruded aluminum alloys are the most susceptible to corrosion, and the use of such extruded parts is usually of extreme structural importance. In general, we also recommend priming aluminum sheet metal and aluminum tubes in airframe structures before applying the glue and the fabric. Especially the inside of tubular aluminum spars and longitudinal members should get that extra attention since they are often difficult or impossible to inspect in the finished aircraft. If the customer is not willing to prime or paint the aluminum structures and insists on a bare metal application, on most types of recent day aluminum sheet metal and tubing it will be also necessary (due to the surface coating) to scuff up the surface where the glue is applied. With the modern types of Alclad surfaces, the surface coating is so completely smooth on the microscopic level that the glue will not sufficiently adhere, since it does not use a chemical attack to adhere to the metal, such as a wash-primer or a self etching primer would. Visible scratches in the surface are unnecessary. Rubbing the surface with the green type of Scotch-Brite (or the grey type such as used in aluminum surface preparations) is absolutely sufficient to let the glue adhere to reach its design strength. If a thus prepped aluminum surface Oratex glue bond is tested to destruction, the fabric will fail before the glue does; the glue surface will not come off the aluminum. If the glue is applied correctly, a square inch of glue will hold 100 lbs in a pull test.

-Quite a lengthy story for a post, but I dare say necessary considerations.-
Regards,
Lars
 
Just spent 2 days painting on the ailerons and wings. Keep thinking I would be flying now if I had used Oratex on them. The time to cover them would have been less than I have spent so far, and I have days left.
 
Hi,
yes Frank Knapp and his wife spend 4 days in covering the Wings, Tailfeathers, Flaps and Ailerons and the Forward fuselage (only!) of their cub...Only 4 days from naked to airworthy.
On the Antonov An2 in Germany they figure they spend no more than 20% of the time normally used on covering that biplane... and that with keeping in mind it was the first time for them as well, not just for Frank and his wife, who had also no prior experience.
On the advertising side I tend to say: " Are you flying already (with Oratex) or are you still painting, wet sanding, painting....etc..."
Regards from Anchorage.
 
Lightest fabric - Oratex

Thought we would run this thread up the flag pole again.. a lot of good comments..

We have been flying the heck out of Lil' Cub, it always seems like its oil change time! Completed May of 2012 (400 flight hours ago) and wintered in that hot Arizona sun last winter. We don't sell the stuff but feel like we should with all the questions, pretty hot topic. We continue to change things hacking and cutting to get it done.. it patches well, very light and personally I like the finish.. a caked on gloss just isn't normally there to stay.

When we were attempting to loose weight we calculated it took between $500 and $1000 per pound to loose weight with Carbon or titanium.. no matter what Oratex costs the return is there based on the weight savings and not having to breath the all the VOCs (cr@p)! When doing a price comparison please take into account all the extra time required, sand paper, paint, primer, UV protection, thinner, glues and if you don't already have it.. a fresh air suit, compressor, filters for spray air and a paint gun or two.. (never again)

Just one opinion.
Regards,

frank

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Little_Cub,
Just curious, with all of the draggy alterations which you appear to have made, how does your cruise speed compare to a "normal" Cub?
 
Little_Cub,
Just curious, with all of the draggy alterations which you appear to have made, how does your cruise speed compare to a "normal" Cub?

1- With exposed tail section (like Got_Rocks) no slat = 60 mph at 2350 DA 1000'
2- Covered tail section no slat = 62 mph at 2350 DA 1100'
3- Covered tail section with slat = 62 mph at 2350 DA 1000'

The prop is a Catto 80x30 on a C-85, it's pretty well in 'low_gear' all the time.

In the previous photo it has (3) flap and associated droops (5 available) but in cruse all that tucks away nicely.
Pretty slow but it was built for that purpose, the most f_u_n factor ever!

It's not a Double-Ender but probably the best view of any Cub.. the dash was moved all the way to the firewall and the firewall was cut down 3.5".. with the windshield run out to meet. It's like a green house in there. Yes the (modified) cowl fits but with several new thrust line changes and well, it's weight..


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Good day Lars, can you patch a different fabric system ( stits or rantane )with Oratex 6000 and how would you proceed ?
 
Hi "Beaver18",
sorry I had not seen or heard about your question before, only found it now! Yes sure, It can be used to patch the "Usual Lifetime fabrics". Clean it up , scuff it up, paint our glue on, let it dry, paint the glue on the patch , let it dry, and put the patch on and trigger the glue's with heat. DONE.-4ever! And sure can be painted if so desired. Check website and U-Tube-channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/BetterAircraftFabric
About this subject see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqDmeCfUBkU&list=TLDl-WwZ2a4tKb428xku92za1HXmjbft3C
that is the video: Oratex: Patching "Legacy Fabrics" with "Oratex Special" Patch kits: Field Repairs !
This also talks about our "Super Duct Tape"-like Oratex-Special.
For most folks in the continental USA the looks of this plane here in that video might seem hideously ugly, but for being an fabric covered plane in ALASKA its Very very Normal ! - The extremely long sunny summer days, the Extremely clear winter sky that is sunny'er than most outsiders think, the drastic temperature changes, it all takes a harsh toll on the looks of a fabric covered plane. As the plane is ALWAYS tied down outside and never stays in any hangar, its a pretty good example of hard working bush planes up here...To us here the looks matter less, being RELIABLE is what counts...
regards,
Lars
 
Hi Lars, What kind of fabric tension does the oratex develop? The Stits that I have worked with develops adequate tension but the older dope finishes such as Randolph seem to be much tighter. How does the oratex compare?
 
Hi Lars, can you clean the glue around the patch before or after doing the work
NOPE, once the glue in on there and TRIGGERED with heat, than it is not removable anymore. The patch can be made slightly larger than the glue underneath, also the glue can be painted. Did you see the "Oratex Special" Video???
Email me and I can send the Manual/ FAQ's.
regards,
Lars
 
Hi Lars, What kind of fabric tension does the oratex develop? The Stits that I have worked with develops adequate tension but the older dope finishes such as Randolph seem to be much tighter. How does the oratex compare?
First Let me ask you how much tightness do you think is right? How much do you think is NEEDED??? - With the usual / Traditional / Legacy Aircraft Fabrics there is the problem that they go Way too tight and might/will do even more so, over time. Sucked in /scalloped trailing edges of wings ailerons flaps (bend sheetmetal) and bend tubing in trailing edges of rudders and elevators is a sure result of THAT. We have even seen Bend / Sucked inward Lower Longerons on Super Cubs and others! Both of our B7GCBC's have all trailing edges scalloped from the fabric going over-tight ! - Because of all that Oratex is DESIGNED not to exceed a specific design tightness that is for sure high enough for flying etc. As said, there are over 100 planes flying with it in Europe and nobody had any Problem with "It is too loose". The thing is that since most folks are used to the EXTREME tightness of some of the Legacy products, they may be turned away by the somewhat different ways of the Oratex Fabric. Our Oratex also has a so called "E-Module" that provides some flexibility that is permanent and does not need to be activated by the heat-shrink-feature. We have re-done planes with the only change being the Oratex and nothing else and they flew better and slower and used less RPM at Cruise even with weight onboard to compensate for the weight-loss of the Fabric change. There is an ongoing study in Europe now where we want to figure those positive changes out in detail and with 3rd party verification as well. Watch the video of the ANtonov An2 1000hp biplane flying, with the closeup of the wings and flaps: Itsa 12500lbs plane in the USA and in foreign places they fly the up to 16500lbs !!! So its sure enough tight enough.
Best Regards,
Lars
 
Lars,
What's necessary to remove and recover a plane with Oratex?
I'm wondering specifically about removing the old glue and fabric from wood or aluminum.
You had mentioned in a prior post that "once the glue is on there and triggered with heat, that it is not removable anymore". Has anybody had to take this stuff off an entire aircraft? Everything wears out eventually. Does one heat and peel up the old fabric? Or?

Also, the surface prep to ensure adhesion sounds pretty important.
Following removal and preparing for reapplication - what procedures are needed ?
Is complete removal of all residue needed?
ChrisM
 
Lars,
What's necessary to remove and recover a plane with Oratex?
I'm wondering specifically about removing the old glue and fabric from wood or aluminum.
You had mentioned in a prior post that "once the glue is on there and triggered with heat, that it is not removable anymore". Has anybody had to take this stuff off an entire aircraft? Everything wears out eventually. Does one heat and peel up the old fabric? Or?

Also, the surface prep to ensure adhesion sounds pretty important.
Following removal and preparing for reapplication - what procedures are needed ?
Is complete removal of all residue needed?
ChrisM

Opinion only ;-)
We have hacked and changed several things in the life of our build.. I would say cleanup is easier than anything we have used so far.. heat softens the attachment and does a lot when removing a chunk. In some cases we have treated the old glue like primer, if it already had a good bond we added some fresh over the top.

Agreed, like paint or any other process.. preparation is the key to make it last and isolation of bi-metal contacts is part of that. A light prime over properly treated and scuffed material helps this stuff attach.

With 470 hours on Lil' Cub in 16 months it has held up very well to everything so far.
PM if you want more specifics.
 
Lars, new to this tread, have an Exp Super Cub built up, no fabric, but very close. A friend that is helping with the build talked to I suppose you at Oshkosh, and was very impressed with the product. His only negative comment was that the light shown through, and it looked to him a little like a translucent cover. He did not think it appealing in that matter. If so was wondering if you could block the cover from behind or can you spray a coat of polyurethane over the cover to block it and give it more shine? I realize that takes away one of it great attributes being not having to paint. Possibly the translucent is not as noticeable as he thought. Would appreciate your comments. We are old Stits, Poly guys so just trying to learn.
Thanks Bruce
 
If you park it so that the sun is right behind it, you can see some shadows of the tubes in the fuselage, but as a general rule, you will never notice it. Have never even had anyone comment about it.

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it looked to him a little like a translucent cover. He did not think it appealing in that matter. If so was wondering if you could block the cover from behind or can you spray a coat of polyurethane over the cover to block it and give it more shine? I realize that takes away one of it great attributes being not having to paint. Possibly the translucent is not as noticeable as he thought. Would appreciate your comments. We are old Stits, Poly guys so just trying to learn.
Thanks Bruce

Hi Bruce (just one guys opinion..)
This fall with the sun on the opposite side.. it had about 450 hours.

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Your friend may be right but what you can also see is 25# that your not packing around that allows the surface to peel, crack and delaminate or ringworm. Gotta agree it doesn't shine like an 'Ol Packard but it doesn't fly like one either!
 

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What's the best way to add detail (stripes, lettering, accent, etc.). Paint or vinyl?
 
What's the best way to add detail (stripes, lettering, accent, etc.). Paint or vinyl?

Hi Traash, The Best Way? Depends on who is looking at it. It can be painted and even old rattlecan Krylon will stay on there, but we offer Also a whole Plethora of "stick on quick" self-adhesive products for that, we have even pre-made checkerboard stuff in different colors and sizes! Some of these are made from the so called Oratex600special which can also be used as a patch kit material: Its kinda like having a super-duct-tape that never turns bad and that doesnt care any about UV-Rays. I have it on both my planes, see one in this video: Oratex: Patching "Legacy Fabrics" with "Oratex Special" Patch kits: Field Repairs its found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqDmeCfUBkU&feature=share
If you email me I can email you our digital catalog and its all in there. Best Regards from Anchorage...
 
....A friend that is helping with the build talked to I suppose you at Oshkosh, and was very impressed with the product. His only negative comment was that the light shown through, and it looked to him a little like a translucent cover. If so was wondering if you could block the cover from behind or can you spray a coat of polyurethane over the cover to block it and give it more shine? I realize that takes away one of it great attributes being not having to paint. Possibly the translucent is not as noticeable as he thought....Thanks Bruce

Hi Planenuts/Bruce! Yes it is somewhat translucent, especially the lighter colors and the 600 more so than the Oratex6000. Its the old story of eating the cake and still wanting to have it...The dear physics: Everyone wanted LIGHT and NO MORE CRACKING AND FLAKING, ever! So it has THAT but thus is somewhat translucent. BUT it can be painted as you did suggest and there are no drawbacks to that, other Than PAINT. Our own proprietary Oracolor Elastic paint will not crack off, flake off or Ringworm, and its 100% solid, kills off the translucency. But it adds weight and nasty painting-spraying etc. Someone could crawl inside and paint the inside with rattlecan or roller and that way kill off the translucency. Our Blue and Olive drab are basically solid, and we will have more colors in the future. Check out pictures of planes on our website and U-Tubechannel, its often not very noticeable. I have a Dornier Do27 Warbird and I will just rattlecan the Oratex so that it looks like Eastern Front '44. ...as desired.
 
Until there is some movement towards certification of this process, it is just another experimental product. Why is it taking so long to get somewhere in this direction? If this product is certified in Germany, what is the hang up with certification with the FAA?
 
L,any chance there is some of the checker pattern available up here in AK with 3-4 inch squares, black and white? I have two cub rudder recovers coming up and would like to give it a try.Rocket
 
Until there is some movement towards certification of this process, it is just another experimental product. Why is it taking so long to get somewhere in this direction? If this product is certified in Germany, what is the hang up with certification with the FAA?

Yea, what he said :wink:
 
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