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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #2161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    So, no one ever use a VW engine in an aeroplane??

    Yes, Back in the mid '80s I redesigned a KR2 for a customer, wider, longer and new flight surfaces.

    The engine was build by a very good machine shop in Conn whom was a VW specialist for a few decades at that time.
    This engine if I recall was a 2375cc.
    The first iteration had an off the shelf intake manifold. This was our first mystery due to very poor mixture balance.
    It took me 3 tries till I fabricated a suitable intake with accurate mixture to each cylinder. I had the intake and exhaust all working in harmony with the camshaft and displacement.
    Now with the engine finally fitted on the airframe we went through the rest of the pre flight prep.
    During one of the last work sessions the owner "blipped" the throttle. This resulted in a splintered blade on the Great Planes prop. I had been questioning the durability of a wood prop with just 3 layers of lamination. The replacement prop was properly made.

    Now time for flight. We soon found that NLF airfoil with it's cusped trailing edge with it's high pitching moment, just what that meant. Now this KR2 I designed has drooping ailerons such that the plane has full span flaps. Even thought I added length to the fuselage as well as larger tail surfaces we now found when slowing down on approach we ran out of elevator. easy enough to add camber to the underside of the horizontal.

    Now we had a VW powered plane with a top speed of 175ish, cruise in the mid 150s and approach speed over the fence of 30. Not bad and you can see where my design is based on the plane I am currently building.

    Now back to the VW engine, it did not take long for the Claudes Buggies Crankshaft to fail, It broke at the center main. The owner was able to reach an airport where the airframe was stored for many months while the engine was rebuilt.
    If I recall the new crankshaft was sourced from Scat, the Claudes Buggies Crank was a one shot Chinese forging.
    New case was needed.
    Now back together, not many hours later an oil leak developed. Soon determined to be a major case failure forward of Cyl 3. The plane made it home this time.
    I was no longer in the area at this time having started my restoration business on the other side of the state but If I recall a Scat case was now used.
    This plane was flown for a bit over 10 years when the Owner went on to build an RV6.

    Our analysis of the VW Motor in the long run. It turns at too low an RPM and is stuck in a critical harmonic range in aircraft use. A reduction drive allowing for moving the rpms up would warrant both a greater life as well as improving fuel burn and power.

    Personally if an O-200 fits, I would fly behind it.

    I think that VW motor ended up costing more than a little Continental will over the 10 years.

  2. #2162
    Lowrider
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    Same thing happened to an old A1-E driver I know but he was behind a Rotex 503 that froze up on take-off at a bout 50' I'm told. Plane nosed over and the fuselage rolled up into a ball and they had to cut him out...seriously injured. That's one of the reason I want to get rid of the 503 on my Challenger.


    Brian,


    Thanks for the info. Can you give me some details on the VW engine you were dealing with on the motor glider. There are a bunch of older and poorly built VW's that fail. I'm looking at using the Hummel 1915cc which is not a conversion but a purpose built with all new parts and widely used in a lot of smaller home builts and factory planes like the Sonix. Heat and valve problems apparently can be dealt with by proper cowling and routine valve adjustment. I'm only going on info I've read and really looking for data at this point and the view point of those with experience the VW.

    My experience with engine failure is limited to 2 Lyc's and 1 Cont. and I think I believe that they all can fail because they're all machines...just like to move the odds in my favor.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  3. #2163

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    The weight difference between the VW's and the Rotax 912 series is close enough to make using the direct drive vdub problematic. Not to mention the super reliability of the 912 (says this 2230 TT operator) and fully twice the thrust for the same fuel consumption. They had their place, back BEFORE the Rotax came along, but now they are a poor choice as compared to the Rotax. There was a South African outfit (Bushmaster??) who had a reduc drive for them, that at least got the thrust up, don't know if they're still around. I'd put my lightly tweaked (Big Bore Zipper mod, about 106 hp) 912S Rotax up against any 0-200 pwered craft any day, anywhere....! And burn less fuel, mogas, while I'm at it. I hated them at first, too expensive and complicated, then I bought one and have never looked back, and am now firmly in their camp. BTW, I went right from 2 stroke ultralights, to a Subaru conversion in my first S-7 (1300 hrs totally no problems, but heavy and big compared to the 912, more fuel burn too). I had a 0-320 in an Avid Magnum for 45 hours (flew off the time for a guy) and loved it also, except for the weight and fuel burn, even way throttled back, compared to what I was used to. My 65 hp in the T-Craft had almost identical fuel burns, just a hair more if anything, then the Rotax does, but about half the thrust as the 78" Prince geared prop I now swing. I'll be in Thompson Falls Montana this weekend FWIW, some kind of car show and fly in combination, sounds good to me!
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  4. #2164
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    OK...maybe I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm getting the impression that the VW is not the #1 choice to risk your one life with.

    912 is too powerful and TOO expensive. A65 might work...gotta be others at 65 hp and less or near 150lbs.

    Hey Courier,

    If I wasn't setting 6x6's for the hanger this weekend I'd jump on the little Harley and zip over to Thompson Falls. It's a nice ride along the river. Oh, by the way there is not falls there...just lies to attract tourists. There is some good chow at the restaurant on the south side of the road if the yellow jackets aren't too bad.

    Anyone with something good to say about the poor VW airplane style engine?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  5. #2165

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    Been there before, but about 35 or 40 years ago, flying my Pterodactyl ultralight. I landed on one of the islands across from town and camped out, at one point rowing my inflatable cheapo raft (yeah, I flew XC with camping gear and the raft) across the river to get something to eat and a cold beer. No sailor, coming back at dusk, I failed to adequately compensate for the current and found myself rowing like crazy to make the island before being swept downstream past it. No big deal, until I took off the next morning and saw the damn dam intake about 1/4 mile around the curve! This time, I reserved a motel room, but will for sure eyeball and maybe land my old camp site on the island. No raft these days, but I am taking my Montague e bike so will have a way to get around.

  6. #2166
    Lowrider
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    That raft thing sounds more dangerous than flying with a VW up front.

    I was over at Missoula a couple years ago in my crew cab F 250 when I got to Thompson Falls on the return trip about the same time I go sleepy so I pulled up behind the Exxon station to take a nap in the back seat. I guess I had been asleep an hour or so when someone knocked on the window and woke me up. He said he was lost and couldn't find the falls and asked for directions. I was kinda pissed that he woke me up so I told him I wasn't from here but I think it might be down on the river. I fired up the Ford and drove home. My wife is still laughing about it. No clue if he found the falls.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  7. #2167

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    With more thoughts on the VW engine, the low thrust they had was more of an attribute to the clubs we swung. The short wood props will in no way put out the thrust that today's carbon blades will. I do not care what engine the prop is on, torque at the hub needs to be efficiently converted to thrust.
    To follow up on the VW I worked with, it did perform fine for 7 years after the bunch of failures. Even with the wood club up front it pulled a plane nearly 180 mph, I do not think it was Knots.
    We never once had head or valve problems and never were chasing cooling problems. Build it right and install it well and they are fine.
    Do it on the cheap you should keep your eye open for landing spots.

    To me an A65 is allot more expensive than an O-200 unless you find one laying around in a dry barn.

  8. #2168
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    I think you're right Charlie. Purpose built engines (VW or otherwise) should be just as reliable as a customary old world technology Lyc or Cont. Too bad there isn't enough demand to produce an even better designs but it may happen that batteries will improve significantly and electric will be the future not internal combustion. I will miss the 4 stroke but I'm ready to hear just a humm driving the ducted turbine...or something like that.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  9. #2169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post

    Brian,


    Thanks for the info. Can you give me some details on the VW engine you were dealing with on the motor glider.

    Its a Limbach L1700, Volkswagon based but designed for aircraft use.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbach_L1700

    Brian

  10. #2170
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    Thanks Brian! It certainly seems the Europeans were fond of the engine in the 70's. I'm surprised that there are so many problems coming from German engineering but maybe they just are rooted in the engineering knowledge for that era. The motor gliders provide the best of both worlds but only if you can rely on a sure restart. The Challenger's long wing ability as a glider is one of the reasons I like it so well and have fun with it...when the engine fires up on command.

    I have an Artic Cat snowgo with a Rotax 600 triple and it puts out maybe 100 hp and will go real fast and get me into trouble sometimes and it runs great...BUT when it's hot and you shut down it won't start without letting it sit for awhile...not a good trait for a motor glider.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  11. #2171
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    Hanger progress...

    DSC_0004.jpg
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  12. #2172

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    That crew look like real mud guys, no screed boards needed in the middle! Just a good eye.....

  13. #2173
    Lowrider
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    They are. 6" fall in 40' and almost no puddles. One coat of Diamond Clear and it's ready for airplane tires. Waiting 6 weeks for trusses... due mid Aug. I dug the foundation for the house and the same crew is pouring footers and stem wall next week. Six week wait for house trusses.

    Something interesting in the rust removal area: https://www.tractorbynet.com/faq/laser-rust-removal/
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Something interesting in the rust removal area: https://www.tractorbynet.com/faq/laser-rust-removal/
    Wow! Just imagine the possibilities in the future in stripping paint off airplanes.
    N1PA

  15. #2175
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    What a great idea...'cept maybe not on fabric...although it works on eyeball so maybe you could do fabric. The frame on my old Super Duty could use some of that action.
    Got the word today that my hanger trusses will be born on the 16th so I'm going to order up the roof and wall steel siding tomorrow. Evergreen roof and light tan on the sides...like the other 82K pole barns in the Idaho Panhandle. Trying for incognito. Still can't find a plumber but I was able to come up with "toilet in a bucket" approved by the USMC when you can't find a trenching tool.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  16. #2176
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    Trusses...can a roof be far behind!

    DSC_0045.jpg

    I know...Courier won't approve but my little orange tractor with an 8' boom is setting 50' trusses with little effort once we had a couple "learning moments".

    Footers and stem walls are done on the house and I've back filled mostly and ready to start plumbing rough-in. It's been awhile (maybe 30 years) since I've done black pipe plumbing but the local plumbers are so busy I can't find one that's available for my work so #2 son is doing the digging and I'm doing the thinking work. Just follow the old saying...poop flows down hill...and we'll be fine.

    Just found out that my neighbor at ID 5 is building a 4 seat Bearhawk...sorta. He bought a mostly finished fuselage and already done wings but I guess that's kinda like building one. I told him I am putting droop ailerons on my LSA and he wants them on his "already done" wings and I said that might present a challenge...maybe he can find some for sale.

    Smoke here has made things IFR or nearly so for a number of weeks. Guess it's better to put up with the smoke than worry about the fires. I feel bad for the folks out West of here where the fires are burning.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  17. #2177

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    Not at all! As long as time wasn't a factor, that looks like a good setup. With the right crew and conditions (good viz, not a lot of wind), I would have set those 3 at a time, and, again with the right crew, I'd be in and outa there in less then 2 hours. An average or non pro framing crew, maybe half a day. I use my L3301 Kubota tractor and my U 25 Kubota mini excavator all the time for things I should use my 30 ton/110' boom track crane for, but I keep it in town not where I live, and it's more fun figuring out how to do something out of the ordinary, safely. You had a good concrete slab to work on, that was a big help I'm sure. My pic shows me setting the shop's new swamp cooler, I ran out of reach but still got the job done, with the help of a few pallets, using the crane would have been too easy.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  18. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Trusses...can a roof be far behind!

    DSC_0045.jpg
    Make sure that you lock those trusses together before you get anymore up there. As they sit they are just like a bowl of spaghetti ready to collapse. Been there done that too! Screaming for help while the wind is trying to blow it down with me being the only thing up there holding it. Gee, you guys are always dredging up memories of "been there done that too".

    To quote John Meade "Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"" As I look over my shoulder that's how I feel.
    N1PA

  19. #2179

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    Looks like he had lateral bracing in there, as he went. A lot of guys will nail a stiffback to the end wall, with it sticking up high enough to provide initial bracing for the gable end truss, then after setting it and the next 3 or 4 regular trusses, do some cross bracing as they now have enough room to get some good triangulation. Doing an entire roof with JUST the gable truss bracing providing the needed "standability" is not a good deal. In a wind, what a lot of these nail benders I work with almost daily don't seem to get, even though we may have 10 trusses up, all laterally braced by that gable, each additional truss we set increases the wind loading. A lot also don't understand the tag line need to go on the upwind end, as you can't push on a rope! Being a crane operator/pilot, working with big trusses on a windy day, especially sheeted gable end ones (lots of surface area) is real similar to a gusty cross wind landing, fun when you pull it off and a real test of your skills.

  20. #2180

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    You are in North Idaho? I bent nails for 30 years and a building inspector for 20. Probably just fine but see some things in your pictures that I might be uncomfortable with. In Idaho you can build Ag. buildings from Popsicle sticks.
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  21. #2181

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    Quote Originally Posted by don d View Post
    You are in North Idaho? I bent nails for 30 years and a building inspector for 20. Probably just fine but see some things in your pictures that I might be uncomfortable with. In Idaho you can build Ag. buildings from Popsicle sticks.
    You got me curious don d, what do you see that I missed, other then the finish bracing/triangulation to the gable truss? Down here in southern Idaho, it's done the same, a typical post and beemer. No hurricane clips yet, we need to see a finished pic lowrider so we can pick it apart and tell you what you did wrong! Kudos, for having practical experience in building BEFORE becoming an inspector, that ought to be the law, but isn't sadly. I got my journeyman card back in '74, eventually wised up and got into the hoisting business, now I just watch guys bend nails. The inspectors that were old construction hands were always great to deal with.

  22. #2182

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    Looks like a mix of post frame and conventional construction. Hoping trusses are designed for the job. Are they 2x4 rafter and bottom cord? Looks like 4 foot spacing. Had about 400 buildings collapse here 2 winters ago. We had nearly 4 times our design snow load. Probably just fine. Hard to tell just from a picture.

  23. #2183
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    You guys are tough. Designed by a dumb ass engineer who gets too much for just stamping the drawings. Perlins are almost up...wanta stop by for a couple days and help with the OSB and steel roof. There's 40 something 2x4 and 2x6 bracing and we're not done. They are 2x8 top and bottom chord with 60 lbs snow load and an extra 20 lbs per linear foot live load for hanging little aero planes or whatever.

    I was an Air Force construction inspector and surveyor for 5 years and I got 40 hrs into a civil engineering degree when I was in a Fluid Dynamics class and woke up to the fact this stuff was really boring and I can't do this the rest of my life. This was back when we used slide rules and trig. Became an AFOSI special agent and later a federal special agent with a 3 letter agency and had a great time chasing bad guys and spies.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  24. #2184
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    Ordinarily, I would refrain from this report...but...construction people and products are in such short supply in North Idaho I can't resist. Got a call on the Apple today telling me my septic tank is scheduled for delivery on 24 Sep 18 with installation to follow on the 25th...be calm I told myself. This may not seem like something that would get your pulse rate elevated but I have been waiting since early July this year to work my way to the top of the production list at the septic tank store. I trust that stuff still flows down hill and will welcome the chance to prove that soon. Oh yeah...still need get my water connected to the neighborhood well system that's fed by the an aquafer that originates in British Columbia. I'm told it takes 50 years for the water to make it down to my house so it should be well filtered by then. Can't help but wonder where it goes after it leaves my septic tank.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  25. #2185
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    OK...septic system went in Monday and inspected yesterday - passed with no problems. I did the back fill today and oh, by the way, the OSB and steel roof went on last weekend...so much better to know if (when) it rains and snows that all the stuff under the roof will be safe.

    Speaking of safe...someone "borrowed" 2 Milwaukee cordless drills, 2 batteries and my charger from my previously unlocked shop which is now locked. It's not fun being violated by some sorry sneaky pete (sorry Sky) who snuck in during the dark of night and stole my stuff. Now have replacements on the way and have installed two hidden trail cameras...thought about a couple set shotguns but didn't want to clean up the mess.

    There was frost on the lawn this morning and it still hit 71F this afternoon. Leaves are turning red and yellow and my neighbors are out hunting and what am I doing...covering my septic tank with dirt (sorry Professor Williams) soil. The prof was quick to correct folks who called soil "dirt". Dirt, he said was what you get under your finger nails...just one of the many things I remember from my post kindergarten education.

    I'm still entertaining using a VW derived engine to replace my Rotax 503. Might use a bitty Continental if I can find one cheap. A VW may be all I can afford after finishing the hanger and house.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #2186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post

    Speaking of safe...someone "borrowed" 2 Milwaukee cordless drills, 2 batteries and my charger from my previously unlocked shop which is now locked. It's not fun being violated by some sorry sneaky pete (sorry Sky) who snuck in during the dark of night and stole my stuff. Now have replacements on the way and have installed two hidden trail cameras...thought about a couple set shotguns but didn't want to clean up the mess.
    Ouch. I rely on Milwaukee cordless drills and drivers daily. That hits pretty low.

  27. #2187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Speaking of safe...someone "borrowed" 2 Milwaukee cordless drills, 2 batteries and my charger from my previously unlocked shop which is now locked. It's not fun being violated by some sorry sneaky pete (sorry Sky) who snuck in during the dark of night and stole my stuff.
    That is a capitol offense ! Under the pressures of the moment, you're forgiven, I get called lot's of things.
    N1PA

  28. #2188
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    Just popped up the AOPA feed...Maybe I can build a real airplane now and not worry about the silly 1320 rule...where'd that come from anyway??!!

    Baker invited Jack Pelton, EAA chairman and CEO, onto the stage. On Jan. 19, 2019, Pelton said, the FAA will publish a notice of proposed rulemaking that seeks to raise the weight limit for light sport aircraft from the current 1,320 pounds to 3,600 pounds. “That will allow you to fly in a 172, have four seats in the airplane, and fly 150 mph,” said Pelton, who also anticipates a rule change that would allow professional builders to construct experimental amateur-built aircraft.

    Oh yeah...all the positive comments we can muster will be appreciated!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  29. #2189
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That is a capitol offense ! Under the pressures of the moment, you're forgiven, I get called lot's of things.
    I could have said Pedro but that just doesn't have the same ring as "sneaky pete".
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  30. #2190
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    And now for the rest of the story...

    October 9, 2018 by General Aviation News Staff 2 Comments
    Experimental Aircraft Association Chairman and CEO Jack Pelton revealed that the FAA is going to increase the weight limit for light-sport aircraft to 3,600 pounds at the AOPA’s Regional Fly-In, but EAA officials are now advising the general aviation community that there’s “much work to be done” before this becomes reality.
    The proposed weight limit change is just part of current discussions between EAA and the FAA before any broad MOSAIC — Modernization of Special Airworthiness Certificates — rulemaking — and those discussions are still in the formative stage, according Sean Elliott, EAA’s vice president of advocacy and safety.
    “There are numerous ideas that have emerged from discussions regarding MOSAIC, which began more than two years ago as informal conversations between EAA and FAA,” he said. “One area that emerged was how to help LSA fulfill its full potential. While weight-limit changes are one possibility, a specific number such as 3,600 pounds is something that is still very much in the exploratory stage.”
    He cautions that the beginning of the FAA rulemaking process is not expected until early 2019.
    “Any proposal for public comment would likely emerge in 2020 at the earliest,” he added.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
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  31. #2191
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    Well...I'm a failure...had my septic line inspection today and I failed. 140 feet of 4" PVC, 3 cleanouts, two at the house and one at the shop and a 24 hour leak test all went fine except for one (yes ONE) fitting at the septic tank and he failed me. I used a tee instead of a sweep and he failed me. Apparently. poop can't make a hard left turn into the septic tank...who knew. Following some discussion with the inspector, he convinced me that I would have problems with effluent build-up at the tee so I relented and agreed to buy a 90 degree sweep to replace the tee and off he went to formally tell the world that I failed.

    I could dwell on the outcome but since I've built one and a half more airplanes than I have designed and installed a septic line system and the inspector has never built any airplanes I figured I was still ahead of the game...at least in my little brain.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
    Likes Chicken Hawk liked this post

  32. #2192
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Apr 2003
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    I have maintained a few apartments for the last 25 years. Any furture septic drains I build wil have 22.5 maximum bends. Even 45 degree bends become a problem some days.

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 10-12-2018 at 10:04 AM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  33. #2193

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    They always find one thing. He's right though, sweep good, san tee/short radius 90 bad. Digging that up when full-o-potty in the middle of winter and installing a Fernco or slip coupling to get a sweep fought in place to make stuff go South again isn't much fun. Don't ask me how I know this, I've never failed, no, not ever...

  34. #2194
    Lowrider
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    Nov 2012
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    Yes sir...22's are better for sure. I now have a 45 sweep which is what I was told by the inspector would work fine. Tee's apparently are OK for vertical runs but not in the flat. Hopefully cleanouts will allow running a snake and take care of any clog...with no Winter digging needed.

    Finished the gable OSB and siding today. Trim and Z strips left to be done but I can get thru the winter if I must since everything is water/snow tight.

    Hanger house pix 043.jpg
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!
    Thanks id05pa12 thanked for this post

  35. #2195
    Lowrider
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    Nov 2012
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    It's actually not funny, nor was I surprised at the inspector's reaction when I made the change to the fitting as he requested. Then he gave me a green sticker, smiled and said have a nice day. Guess I'll get better guidance for the house plumbing rough-in and watch more internet videos so I get it right the first time. I think I've learned so far that it's best to put in more vents than necessary just to be sure.

    I back filled my septic tank and cut off the rough in pipe for the toilet in my shop and set the toilet flange...if I just had water to flush with...maybe a 5 gal bucket per day oughta get a couple flushes.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

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