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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #161
    Lowrider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    Looks like the date on your camera is off Nice work
    Actually Bugs, it is set for international or military time...7 Mar 13...07/03/13 if you perfer. It is still on East Coast time though...must correct.

    Update...top is done and awaiting #2 son to wake up to help with bending and jigging.
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  2. #162
    Lowrider
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    DSC_0110 (2).jpg

    Bottom is bent and secured and the at the moment not so stable uprights are holding the fuselage top which will have to wait until morning to get any action from the plumb bob and level. The bottom took a little tweaking to get it lined up properly and secured to the table after bending. The nearness of the camera makes it look like the top is significantly higher than it should be but it is the required 13" center to center on the tail post. So far, things are very straight forward and relatively easy to accomplish.
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  3. #163
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    DSC_0112 (2).jpgDSC_0113 (2).jpgDSC_0114 (2).jpg

    Another productive day....top and bottom are secured, square, plumbed and level and both sides from the tail to station C are fitted and tacked in place +/- 1/8" and straight on an 8' straight edge to <1/4" in 8 feet. I know...not perfect but I'm usually an aluminum kind of guy.

    Now comes some thought on the tail wheel and the seaplane door on the right and a variety of other little things to consider.

    Has anyone built an A frame tail wheel with a coil over shock for suspension? I think I have seen pictures of such a thing but can't remember where. Seems it would be lighter and provide better off runway shock absorsion than a conventional tail wheel....thoughts?
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  4. #164
    Lowrider
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    Oh yeah...Spring forward!!!
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  5. #165

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    Nestor used one in his Slepcev Storch design. I've seen them on some other aircraft but can't remember where, either. A coil over with an adjustable rebound would be worth pondering....

  6. #166
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Has anyone built an A frame tail wheel with a coil over shock for suspension?
    Here are some samples:



    Stinson Model T


    Travel Air S-6000-B
    N1PA

  7. #167
    Lowrider
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    Thanks fellows!! The Stinson is just about what I was thinking only using an light ATV or mountain bike coil over that would come close to the weight I expect on the LSA tail.

    Got the left side of the fuselage done this morning except the firewall. I'm only putting the seaplane door on the right side since a lot of folks say they seldom use their left door and it would add weight. The door will lift up agains the wing and will have a window that will open when the door is closed. Left window stays too.

    My wife has me talked into a casino and dinner later so maybe I'll take a break this PM...
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  8. #168
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    The Travel Air 6000 is one of the neatest planes ever. I rode in Hank Galpin's a few year is ago. And there's an excellent book by Jim Reardon about another one with an amazing history.

    But the point of this is to ask Lowrider if he is doing this work in Sandpoint Idaho? I'm up the river about 100 miles.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  9. #169
    Lowrider
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    Yes Sir....'bout 12 miles North. Is Thompson Falls a good guess?
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Has anyone built an A frame tail wheel with a coil over shock for suspension? I think I have seen pictures of such a thing but can't remember where. Seems it would be lighter and provide better off runway shock absorsion than a conventional tail wheel....thoughts?
    Another "A" frame tail wheel airplane is the Grumman Widgeon. The weak point on this gear is the point at which the "A" frame is attached to the fuselage. It can fail with a side load in rough ground or when pushing it backwards over the hangar door lip. So, you need to be sure that the "A" frame attachment to the fuselage is very strong along with the surrounding structure.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 03-11-2013 at 05:18 AM.
    N1PA

  11. #171

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    Over the weekend, Bob Barrows flew his Bearhawk LSA to visit a friend with a 180 HP Super Cub. The Super Cub has a 84" Cato with 44 pitch. They did a competition. The BH LSA (Bob solo) took off shorter and out climbed the Super Cub with two people in it. Their cruise speed was just about the same. Mark

  12. #172
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    Mark,

    Interesting but not exacting apples to apples....just think what he could have done with flaps and an 0-320!!

    Did you ever come up with a power on and off stall speed?

    I just looked up Zenith amphibs this morning and they weigh 100 lbs plus the rigging and hydraulic pump/tank. That's probably right at the 1000 lb point if I can build as light as Bob and add in the extra drag. That's becoming quite a load on an 0-200.

    I have most of my basic fuselage tube done and am ordering the material for the gear tomorrow so I can use the tail ribs as soon as they arrive.

    Thanks,


    Joe
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  13. #173
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    That 100 pounds is only for one float.
    N1PA

  14. #174
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Goldberg View Post
    Over the weekend, Bob Barrows flew his Bearhawk LSA to visit a friend with a 180 HP Super Cub. The Super Cub has a 84" Cato with 44 pitch. They did a competition. The BH LSA (Bob solo) took off shorter and out climbed the Super Cub with two people in it. Their cruise speed was just about the same. Mark
    What were the particulars about the "contest"?

    Wind? Takeoff roll length for each? Temperature? ...stuff like that???

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Has anyone built an A frame tail wheel with a coil over shock for suspension? I think I have seen pictures of such a thing but can't remember where. Seems it would be lighter and provide better off runway shock absorsion than a conventional tail wheel....thoughts?
    The new Just Highlander Super STOL has that... Saw a pic of it posted I think on on BCP...

    Brian

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve's Aircraft (Steve) View Post
    The new Just Highlander Super STOL has that... Saw a pic of it posted I think on on BCP...

    Brian
    Thanks Brian!! I'd love to see the specs on the coil over. I looked last night for an acceptable progressive coil rating to start at around 100 lbs and max out at maybe 300lbs with an adjustable flow shock. All I could find was a cheap Chinese go kart shock or a $500 custom job. I'll look on BCP.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  17. #177

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    The side by side flying Bob did with a friend in his SuperCub was not anything too formal. And the test was for sure not apples to apples since the SuperCub had two people. Just posted it for what it was.

    As to how Bob's plane would have done with an O-320 & flaps - that is something you will find out when you finish and fly yours. These are not approved by Bob on his Bearhawk LSA design, and you will be the test pilot for the bigger engine and the flap system you design and install your homebuilt. You have every right to do what you want of course. But I am not as sure as you seem to be that an O-320 and flaps will be beneficial. I am not an engineer, and rely on one for his design expertise and recommendations. But I wish you the best of success with your project.

    Bob will be visiting me soon, and if the weather is good I will fly his LSA and post my impressions. Mark

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Yes Sir....'bout 12 miles North. Is Thompson Falls a good guess?
    A little farther up the canyon at Plains, S34. Six miles from Paradise
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  19. #179
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    Mark,

    Isn't that what experimental is all about?

    I'm not sure about anything except that I think Bob's design is sound or I would be building a Cub clone....we'll see how it turns out.

    Spinner,

    Know right where it is. I hit a traffic jam in Paradise once...I think it involved a horse....and a bunch of folks trying to catch it. If you get over this way, stop in.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    Lowrider, as a Patrol builder I don't see how a fold down door would work and clear the strut on the BH LSA. A fold up one piece seaplane style door is possible as I have mocked one up on my ship.
    Hi Junkie,

    I've been discussing the right seaplane door with several folks and the IA that is keeping me from doing anything stupid and I mentioned that you had mocked up one for your Patrol and he suggested I get some input from you on what you learned....sizes, materials, hardware and so on. Any light you can shed or lessons learned will be appreciated!!
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  21. #181
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    All I did was rip some pine lumber into 5/8" square strips and build a temporary framework in the door opening. I used a couple of cabinet hinges at the top clamped in place and some more lumber to simulate the strut and wing spars so I could check the swing and see if it would clear the strut and I determined it would. I was going with it but then decided to use the stock set up instead. The material I used for the doors and windows is what is called out on the plans.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie View Post
    All I did was rip some pine lumber into 5/8" square strips and build a temporary framework in the door opening. I used a couple of cabinet hinges at the top clamped in place and some more lumber to simulate the strut and wing spars so I could check the swing and see if it would clear the strut and I determined it would. I was going with it but then decided to use the stock set up instead. The material I used for the doors and windows is what is called out on the plans.
    Thanks Junkie!!

    I've been dealing with defective modem and a lack of speedy service froM Hughes Net. All fixed now.

    I have finished all the tubing on the fuselage except the tail wheel and I'm starting on rudder pedals and controls along with the tabs to mount the floor. Plans call for .032 al for areas where where you step and .020 for other areas. Seems pretty light and creaky but the book says it will hold up OK. May add some .063 under the pilot and pax foot area.
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  23. #183
    brown bear's Avatar
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    "May add some .063 under the pilot and pax foot area"
    I read as ,may add some weight

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by brown bear View Post
    "May add some .063 under the pilot and pax foot area"
    I read as ,may add some weight
    Point made...but...that was a compromise instead of .080. I suppose I'll try the light stuff and see if that will keep my feet out of the prop wash.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  25. #185
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    If you want to build as lite as "Bob" you got to think like Bob. If you are thinking about adding something to your plane thats not in the plans, Then hold it up in the air head high and drop it. If it hits the hangar floor its to heavy. " Doug

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Point made...but...that was a compromise instead of .080. I suppose I'll try the light stuff and see if that will keep my feet out of the prop wash.
    With the layout of fuselage tubes in a PA18, .050" aluminum on the floor is very adequate.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    With the layout of fuselage tubes in a PA18, .050" aluminum on the floor is very adequate.
    I used .040 on the cockpit floor of my 12, with some .040 channel stiffeners riveted onto the bottom side in the spots that would bear weight. Works fine.
    Gordon

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  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by brown bear View Post
    If you want to build as lite as "Bob" you got to think like Bob. If you are thinking about adding something to your plane thats not in the plans, Then hold it up in the air head high and drop it. If it hits the hangar floor its to heavy. " Doug
    Good logic Doug!!

    I'm going to go with Geezer's idea of the extra stiffeners made from .064 on the .032 and see how that works out. I'm still a little "iffy" on the .020, besides I have some .025 on hand so I think that will have to do. I going to tell my wife she must sit on the floor to make up for the extra weight and she only gets one seat belt too....we'll see how that works.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  29. #189
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    ....the plate they will install in your skull after she belts you will take up the extra weight of her seat. Careful!!

    Glad to see you moving along Lowrider!!

  30. #190
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    Once again, try to think lite . Ask the Doc to use a Titanium plate. Doug

  31. #191
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    So...you guys know my wife...more likely is she'd knee cap me with a pellet gun just enough to hurt but no real damage done.

    Built the front seat and seat rails this morning and I'll probably get the seat frame and rails welded after nap.

    I think I'm going conventional with the tail wheel. The spring/shock/A frame/yoke idea still seems good but after adding up the parts the weight killed it....thinking light Doug!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  32. #192
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I didn't want to kill your creativity by suggesting to stay with a conventional tailwheel for the parts-count and weight savings alone.

    I like the idea of a "real" dampened tailwheel suspension, so I was waiting to see if you'd do it.

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I think I'm going conventional with the tail wheel. The spring/shock/A frame/yoke idea still seems good but after adding up the parts the weight killed it....thinking light Doug!!
    If you are still thinking about the 0-320, that little bit of extra weight at the tail wheel will help with the CG. Proper CG location deserves as much attention as the weight.
    N1PA

  34. #194
    Lowrider
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    DSC_0006.jpg

    I'm following you guy's advise and have provided my wife with a seat and you may note that the cushion can be used as a flotation device in the unlikely event of a water landing.

    Sky,

    I'm actively looking for a deal on a 1x run out 0-320 so it is still in the mix. I'm mindful of the CG issues and hope to have a better feel for the nose weight issue once I get the gear, tail and wings in place and can better establish approximate CG.

    Dave,

    I'm still in favor of the dampened tail wheel but it adds weight, complexity and fits into my usual tendency to overbuild things which further compounds the weight issue. #3 son who is here visiting for Spring break came up with the idea that once I figure out how to build the LSA, I should build another for him and his brothers to fly so we might try it on that one...'cept he hasn't figured out how they are going to pay for it yet as an under employed college student, an unemployed butcher and a federal cop.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  35. #195

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    Lowrider,

    There's a Stinson L-5 in the hangar next to mine that has the type of tailwheel you're talking about. Adds complexity and weight. I suggest going with a titanium tube spring and a Bob wheel from Scott Iron Design http://www.irondesign-airparts.com/Tailwheels.htm

    Tom
    Keep it light

  36. #196

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    Lowrider, I have .032 2024 in all the floor area on my Bearhawk. It holds up fine. If I'm hauling something in the baggage area that may dent it, I just throw in a piece of 1/4'' plywood. No use hauling around extra weight when you don't need it. Keep it light.

    Dave

  37. #197
    brown bear's Avatar
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    I have been useing a titanium tail spring for some years .Its great and the fatigue life is said to be many many times spring steel.
    Doug

  38. #198
    Lowrider
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    Dave,

    I'm pretty well settled on .032 and .025 on the baggage area. I think I will put some stiffeners in some areas of the .032 just in case. Easier to do it now than later.

    CK6,

    Bob wheel is on the short list with the TI spring....still looking at some other options.

    I finished the front seat for the most part yesterday and started on the rudder pedals. For some reason yet unknown I made them canted in so my boot would lay flat on the pedal and the process turned into a series of compound angles which made the whole process more complicated than necessary. Guess I will stick with the method with the left pedal but it sure was time consuming...that'll teach me to do custom things.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  39. #199
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    Finished up the left rudder pedal and am waiting for the brake cylinders to arrive so I can finish them.

    I had the drawings for the rudder and horz stab blown up to life size and that should make it a lot easier to construct them on the table. Still waiting for the ribs from Avipro but I may lay out the rough shape and not weld anything until I get the ribs.

    ANyone use Grove brakes or wheels? They cost a fair amount less than Cleveland.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #200

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    I have Groves on my Bearhawk. They have held up well. No complaints.

    Dave

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