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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #81
    Lowrider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    I talked with Mark Goldberg from Bearhawk Aircraft about the LSA and he has provided the following information -
    From Mark Goldberg with Bearhawk Aircraft who makes the kits for the four place, the Patrol and the new LSA. Just a couple comments on previous postings. This little plane doesn't need flaps. It lands at 30 MPH and slips VERY well as do all Bob's designs. I would not think it a good idea to put in an O-320. Keep engines under 110-125 HP. If you want a bigger engine it would be wiser to go the LSA's big brother - the Patrol. The LSA airfoil was designed with lower power engines in mind. Happy to answer anyone's questions either on the forum or privately. N95MF@hotmail.com. Thanks. Mark
    Dave
    Thanks Dave!!!

    Mr. Goldberg,

    Thanks for your offer!!

    Do you folks have a web site with further info on the LSA parts available thru you with prices?

    I've seen the published landing speed but have not seen a stall speed. Power on/off stall speeds are important info I believe. The flaps would be great things to have if you are trying to get a set of floats unstuck on smooth water or any variety of other short field "drop it in" landings. I think the 65 hp climb rate was something like 700-900FPM. What is the realistic rate for 0-200 at gross? I'm considering the 0-320 for the potential of getting good performance with floats and also a little extra umpf on take off....but the weight is an issue and I won't run a Rotax so there is no simple answer except maybe a hot rodded 0-200.

    Any other insight into the LSA would be appreciated by many I think....based up the number of reads.

    Thanks in advance!!
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  2. #82

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    Not trying to start a war here, just a question. How is it that a 65 hp tcraft or luscombe only get 4-500 fpm rate of climb (these specs I found on other sites) and the new bearhawk lsa is getting 700-900? Is the wing and airframe that much more efficent? Once again, I'm not trying to start a war, just a question...

  3. #83

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    Hi Clint,
    Various reasons, really. In a nutshell, simplified, the Luscombe has a NACA 23012 airfoil and only 140 sq. ft. wing area vs. 170 sq. ft. for the Bearhawk LSA. The Tcraft has +/- 184 sq. ft. of wing and a NACA 4412 airfoil which has a lower Cl. (Both the 23012 & 4412 have lower design lift coefficients than the GA30A613.5 of LSA.) Prop, drag, Cm and other things factor in too.


    Lowrider,
    Have you considered the Corvair or an experimental O-290-D2?

    Cheers,
    Tom

  4. #84

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    My guess is, He had a souped up 65 hp(closer to 75), now he has a souped up 85(closer to a 100 or better) not sure which engine the specs were derived from, also it is a cleaner fuselage and wing, so probably best rate of climb airspeed is faster than T-Craft or Luscombe. I think a high performance 85 hp T-Craft would stay with it.

    Just a guess,
    Dave

  5. #85
    Lowrider
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    Tom,

    I did/have looked at the Corvair with the 5th bearing but the cost is right up there with the 0-200 and yes, the Corvair would be essentially a new engine but I think I want to stick with Cont/Lyc Technology. The 0290 weighs real close to an 0-320 and there are alot more of them out there, plus you can push the HP up on the 0-320 to better than 170 I believe without too much trouble and run pump gas....but I'm open to suggestions for sure!!
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  6. #86

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    Hi Lowrider,

    Yes, the initial cost of top of the line Corvair is up there with a used Lyc/Cont, but when it's time to rebuild/overhaul it becomes a lot more economical, however, you can't go wrong sticking with a Lycoming or Continental. O-290-D2s seem to be unwanted outcasts these days and there are some great deals on them to be found. They are a little lighter than an O-320. Parts are actually plentiful and many parts compatible with the -235 & -320. If experimental, the correct rings can be had from Hastings for about $50/hole. I converted my -290-D2 to 8.5mm (Accel) superconductor plug wires and auto plugs (NGK AB-6 & AB-7 plugs) - G3i has all the info for it along with a really nice electronic ignition that allows one to retain & revert to mags if the electronic ignition ever fails. Just tossing out options for consideration. Also, it's no big deal to open up the case to take Narrow Deck O-320 cylinders. Easy conversion.

    Tom

  7. #87
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    Who is G3i ?

  8. #88
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    N1PA

  9. #89
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    Thanks skywagon.

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    test reply
    Thanks Doug Budd thanked for this post

  11. #91
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    Check 6,

    I was on the verge of buying an old ground power unit 0-290 and doing just as you suggested with the G3i ignition and the one hole mag case and a IA talked me out of it. He said the cost would be right up there with a rebuild on a once run out 0-320 rebuild and getting more hp in the end with the 0-320 for sure. His logic is.... if you are going to convert something why not just start out with that engine to begin with and not worry about problems that may arise doing the conversion.

    Back to the question...does the BH LSA need an 0-320 for short field work and floats? Does it need flaps and fold down double doors for the same reasons?

    Doors: Yes
    Flaps: Maybe
    0-320: Dunno?

    Thoughts?

    Bugs,

    Where do you buy CM in Spokane or better yet CDA?
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  12. #92

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    While flaps are nice to have, on this plane with this airfoil, and with LSA weight limitations - the designer did not feel they were needed. He has not changed his mind after flying the LSA. Several very accomplished pilots have flown it, and every one has agreed that the slow approach and landing is already very good. As far as unsticking floats with flaps - just no knowledge on that.

    Any of the small HP engines would be fine. I know Bob likes the Corvair engine more than any other auto engine in an airplane. But Bob believes the 4 cylinder Continentals are the best combination of power, reliability, and price. Bob will be building several variants of the 4 cylinder Continental for customers for reasonable prices. We will probably make an engine mount for the Rotax as well but not right away.

    Just getting started on the Quick Build kits at our factory. One wing (first one) is being skinned now. First fuselage is finish welded and having all the other parts (tail surfaces, L/G, control stick assy etc.) made now along with the tooling to manufacture more kits.

    Sorry there is not more info right now. Just the press release and spec sheet on our website. But we will be developing more info quite soon. Thanks. Mark

  13. #93

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    Thanks for the link Skywagon8a.


    Lowrider,

    The O-290-D2 is the only -290 engine I'd consider. In this day & age, I wouldn't ever consider a ground power unit even if it was free. Your I.A. is correct - converting a GPU O-290 would cost more and you'd still have a conversion with a crank with too thin a flange on it. However, I think an experimental O-290-D2 is certainly worth consideration, provided the cost of acquisition is right (keeping it certified would not be economically feasible with rings at over $120/ea x 3 per hole x 4 cylinders, etc., etc.). Even so, after reflection I think an O-290-D2 or O-320 would not be suitable for a Bearhawk LSA. It would be like the gent I observed years ago who went through the hassle and expense of sticking an O-320 on a Tcraft - ended up way past the point of diminishing returns and he wish he had never done it.


    I have a set of LSA plans and have talked to Bob about the design of the LSA at some length. You can't turn a Bearhawk LSA into a Super Cub class plane. Think of the Bearhawk LSA as a new and improved J-3 designed for today's sized people. My 2 cents re: Doors, O-320 and floats - Doors: maybe; O-320: not worth the extra weight and increased fuel burn; Flaps: not worth the extra weight.

    Tom

  14. #94
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    Thanks Mark and Tom!!

    I was at the monthly EAA meeting tonight and the BH LSA was discussed a fair amount and as expected the Carbon Cub owners said it needs an 0-320, an A&P and DAR said stick with the designer's recommendations and a lot of folks never heard of it and had no opinion. All the float pilots there (maybe 7) said yes to the door and flaps and maybe to the 0-320. 2 other Cub drivers (not SC) were impressed with the LSA specs but were not sure how accurate the numbers were on the web site...seemed a little optomistic to them.

    What I came away with was I'm building the fuselage first and will most likely put in a fold down door and not the fold forward Bob included primarily for easier handpropping and float use. Jury is still out on the left door. The rest...we'll see, but the flaps sure seem like a good idea with lots of practical applications.

    As in most discussions, everyone has an opinion and until we get more BH LSA's in the air, the discussion will revolve around opinion not based in experience or facts. Bottom line...I'm going to build one of some sort and find out for myself because I think it is a nice airplane and then I'll know for sure.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Bugs,

    Where do you buy CM in Spokane or better yet CDA?
    I assume you mean 4130. Only place I know of is Alcobra Metals (www.alcobrametals.com) in Spokane. Walk-in or order online. Online prices usually better and you can do will-call. If going with a large order of tubing don't expect them to be as good price as ACS, although worth checking or asking. They are super handy for smaller quantity stuff or piece parts in a pinch. Also they have a remnant section that is great to browse.

  16. #96
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    Lowrider, as a Patrol builder I don't see how a fold down door would work and clear the strut on the BH LSA. A fold up one piece seaplane style door is possible as I have mocked one up on my ship.

  17. #97
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    Remember too, as others have said that know way more than me about it, we really cannot compare the LSA to a Supercub, it's just not and not meant to be it's equal. It might be worth taking a good look at the Patrol which could easily be compared to the SC and has all the things you're looking for. The LSA is just that and from what I understand is an outstanding example on the type but I would fear that changing much with the design would push you over an edge you'd regret. I really would talk to Bob about your plans, he's very accessible.
    Just my opinion.
    Dave

  18. #98
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Bugs...yes, 4130, that's good info!!

    Junkie,

    I have not measured the door clearance so that is good to know. The one piece swing up door would be just fine for my use. Are you planning to use an aluminum frame and piston assist?

    Dave,

    I agree it is not a Super Cub and never can be. If FAA would approve the driver's license to fly Rec Pilot standards I would be building a Patrol not an LSA since that is what I really want. I was drawn to the BH LSA because if that goes thru, I can raise the gross to 1500 lbs and gain 180 lbs useful over the LSA with just paperwork and I believe it is a fundamentally good plane.

    I believe it is the the collective LSA lobby to FAA that is preventing the approval of the initiative since there seems to be no practical reason to set the gross weight/speed limit on airplanes to be flown by us older folks where they are now....IMHO. Two souls in a 150 hp Super Cub is no more threat to life and limb than the same two folks in an LSA.

    I've only owned 5 planes in my life and have always wanted a Cub (super or not) that would give good off field performance on wheels and at least average performance on floats and I believe the Patrol and BH LSA are better examples of the Cub than a cub itself (sorry cub guys), primarily because of the wing, cruise speed and interior size.

    Something that was mentioned a lot last night during the 0-320 discussions was density altitude...summer flying from 8,000' fields is a lot different than Virginia and that is a big factor in looking at the 0-320 over the 0-200. Like other things in life, if you can't get it up, it ain't workin for you!!!
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  19. #99

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    Try "Air Parts" for tubing and other materials.. Good prices and discounts that can almost cover shipping...

  20. #100
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    Lowrider, if you start with the fuselage maybe you can find someone in the EAA chapter that needs to order tubing. That way you can share truck freight and buy mill lengths, saves having a bunch of scraps from buying in UPSable 8ft lengths. You always end up with what I call wind chimes when you have to buy in 8ft lengths. There might also be some leads on tubing from an EAA chapter member, I've bought tubing that way when someone abandoned a project. On the question on my Patrol door, I have built a standard door set up except I used .028 wall tubing instead of .035. When I mocked up a seaplane door I built it out of scrap wood to see if it would work, then changed my mind and went with the standard door. I will have float fittings but not sure I will ever get the chance for floats. The float fittings will make the airplane more appealing at an estate sale.

  21. #101
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    Hey Junkie, where's the pics of your project? Sounds like you have some real progress.

  22. #102
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    If I were building LSA, my engine choice would be a Lycoming O-233. 40 lbs lighter then an O-235, cool new ignition etc..

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...42768644,d.cGE

    Greg

  23. #103
    Lowrider
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    You're right Greg. The 0-233 is a fine engine and would fit the BH LSA just fine. When I lived in Homer in the late 80's I used to know a guy named Dan Draper in Nikiski and flew an old red Tcraft...still around?
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  24. #104
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    Lowrider,
    I have a set of Bearhawk Patrol plans, if you are in the neighborhood someday we could put them side by side and see what the differences are.
    Bugs,
    I met you last spring, your hangar mate was doing the pre-buy for the buyer of my Rocket, we were cutting open the oil filter in your hangar. I wound up buying a Wag Aero project instead of starting the Patrol because the price was so good and it happened to be a few miles from where I was working at the time. I cut the top deck off and built a PA-18 style cabin. Plannig on building wood ailerons and flaps when I build the wings. Still cant decide on O-320 or stroker C-85, dragging my feet on buying an engine hoping for the FAA ruling
    Kevin in Deer Park

  25. #105
    Lowrider
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    Kevin,

    Great idea!!

    What are you doing Saturday? Shoot me a PM if you are available.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  26. #106
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    Hey Kevin, sounds like a cool project. Go with the O-320 over C-85. More power is better, that is my motto.

    Did you sell the Rocket? Will check you out at Deer Park sometime soon.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    Hey Junkie, where's the pics of your project? Sounds like you have some real progress.
    I will have to take some new ones. Not used to anybody being interested.

  28. #108
    Lowrider
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    Hey!!....I'm interested!! I might be building a Patlsa so I'd love to see some details on the Patrol.
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  29. #109
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    If you are going to build a hybrd we are going to have to come up with a better acronym. You could get your man card revoked talking like that.

  30. #110

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    A guy I know put an 0-233 in his rans s-7. I could outclimb him just slightly in my c-90 cub and that was before I got my Catto prop. Personaly, I wouldn't want the 0-233. One thing you need to consider if you do put ANY lycoming engine in is that they are about 4 inches longer than a continental, so in addition to being heavier, the extra weight is sticking even further out there. If you could shorten the fuselage a few inches, I think the 0-320 would be pretty awesome in the BH lsa!

  31. #111

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    One thing to think about if you are contemplating putting a 320 in the LSA. As a rule nobody builds one of Bob's designs as light as he does. Looking at the flying Bearhawks and Patrols out there, most are 100 to 300 lbs heavier than Bob's prototype specs. Add 100 lbs to the projected weight, then add an 0320 and end up with a 900 lb. airplane that was designed to be 750.

    I'm not dissing the airplane. It's just that it is really easy to get a heavy airplane.

    Dave

  32. #112
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    Junkie,

    I thought that was better than LSApat....

    Clint,

    I agree with the 0-320. I talked to a guy today that had a heavy 150 hp Cub on a high mountain strip last summer and had to wait until sundown to get it off the ground due to DA issues. I've aborted take offs more than once becasue the engine and prop just weren't doing what was needed to fly at a hot high field. I think we loose somewhere around 3%/thousand in engine power so the extra 0-320 power would help on wheels and floats on the LSA and the flaps can't hurt but they don't help on weight.

    Looks like I may have a set of Carlson Cub spars for sale.

    Dave,

    You're right...light ain't easy and the bigger engine sure doesn't help. A skinny Patrol would give me flaps and bigger engine and make it a one person with 20 gals of gas and half a sandwich LSA at 1000 lbs empty. Could be done probably but also isn't the best answer. 900 lbs in an LSA would probably be fine without flaps and an 0-320.
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  33. #113
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    i know of a guy building a Cub here at Felts that might want your spars. Let me know if you sell them.

  34. #114
    Lowrider
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    Bugs,

    Let him know they are available,,,still in the original wrappers. He can have them for what I paid...no shipping. And I have one Carlson Cub rib to use as a pattern.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 02-23-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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  35. #115
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    First I'd like to thank Kevin for putting up with me and my son while I looked thru the Patrol drawing. He is doing a bang up job on the remake of his Wag Aero Cub. His workmanship and innovations will make it a fun machine when he's done on wheels or floats!!

    Next, the Patrol wing is different than the LSA but the fuselage, tail, gear and so on is pretty much the same as the LSA, just one size bigger in most of cases, i.e. 3/4 x 0.035 in the LSA to 3/4 x 0.049 in the Patrol. There are certainly other differences but none significant that I could find with a quick review of the Patrol drawings.

    I think my first conclusion from todays exercise is that the LSA is every bit as fine a plane as the Patrol and that all the good comments I have read about the Patrol will also apply to the LSA....but perhaps in a different vain. I continue to believe the LSA needs flaps and with a little thought it could have them. The 0-320 question persists and the extra power it provides will certainly compensate for lack of flaps in some regard but not in all situations. Maybe adding the 0-320 will get me high density altitude advantage as well as better performance without the flaps....and still keep the plane in a reasonable empty weight for an LSA gross.

    So, no decisions made today but I'm proceding with my fuselage build tomorrow.

    Comments please!!
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  36. #116
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    Since you still have the possibility of the 0-320 on the table, you should do some sample weight and balance with the two different engines before you start cutting tubing. Is there room to move the engine closer to the firewall? Should the wing be moved forward a little bit? Should the tail be moved aft a little? Make provisions to mount the battery further aft. Some helicopters have movable battery locations for CG shifts. IF you end up with your center of gravity too far forward you will regret all of those nice extra cubic inches. Planning now with minimize or eliminate the CG shift.
    N1PA

  37. #117
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    Lowrider, If you are starting on your fuselage right away I thought I would add a comment or two. I don't know how many scratch built fuselages you have built so If I'm preaching to the choir tell me to shut up. The Bearhawk line of fuselages are designed to be "space built" and not with a "side ladder" method that is common to scratch building a cub fuselage. The best way is to build your 18 ft jig table, build the top, remove it from jig and proceed to build the bottom. Then you build wood or steel fixtures to hold the top accurately over the bottom and fill in.Pictures 085.jpgPictures 095.jpg

  38. #118
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    Sky,

    I am working the CG issue but at this point I'm not sure about weights of the engine, electric...yes/no, and so on. I'm building my table and ordering appropriate tube first and then will move to the tail then the bottom and top fuselage parts. At this point, I'm thinking 265 lbs is a good target weight for the 0-320 making it about 50 lbs heavier than the 0-200. It seems the weight delta is not a big CG factor but will reduce useful weight. At this point the easiest way looks like streaching the fuselage but I'm not there yet. If you have other ideas, please let me know.

    If anyone has actual weights of a running 0-320 with and without alt/starter, etc., I could use the data please!

    Junkie,

    Don't stop with the info and pictures...it is good to learn/re-learn/refresh and pick up hints and lessons learned from anyone. I'm a sponge and will gladly take any info offered. I'm very interested in info from anyone building a Patrol!!

    I'm thinking of a table like yours with electric and maybe air plumbed into the table so I only have one electic cord and hose to the table. Headed out this morning to get lumber. Keep the pictures coming...they are very helpful!!
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  39. #119
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    Lowrider,
    The weights and CGs for the engines can be found here: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...meset?OpenPage Just type in Lycoming or Continental then look at the particular engine of interest. You can easily calculate changes with the data which is provided. In fact, you can find the weights for airframe and propellers here as well under their appropriate TCs. Get some accessory locations from a visit to the airport.

    Personally I prefer that the CG be more towards the aft than forward, since I have found that the overall performance is better in all respects. I am not suggesting operating outside of any tested limits.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-25-2013 at 01:52 PM.
    N1PA

  40. #120
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    Lowrider, If you are starting on your fuselage right away I thought I would add a comment or two. I don't know how many scratch built fuselages you have built so If I'm preaching to the choir tell me to shut up. The Bearhawk line of fuselages are designed to be "space built" and not with a "side ladder" method that is common to scratch building a cub fuselage. The best way is to build your 18 ft jig table, build the top, remove it from jig and proceed to build the bottom. Then you build wood or steel fixtures to hold the top accurately over the bottom and fill in.
    My 2+2 fuselage went together the same way; top built first followed by the bottom. Jigging the two in alignment was relatively easy using wood bulkheads, plumb bobs and a smart level. Side tubes are then added and welded in place. Top deck with wing attach fittings is welded up and then jigged in place using same method. There are a lot more pictures on my site showing the process if you are interested.

    Marty57



    fuselage 1.jpg


    fuselage 2.jpg
    N367PS
    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

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