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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #401
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Attachment 13187

    Rear float fittings are done and I made them pretty stout and did some additional beefing (made from 0.100" CM) at that cluster so it should handle most things I can throw at it. I'm thinking it may prove to be a good place to attach a step on the right side also but I'm not sure I need the extra drag....we'll see.
    Are you planning to attach the cross wire to the strut fitting? Or, what is your plan for the cross wire attachment? You do not have a visible attach point for the cross wires.
    N1PA

  2. #402
    Lowrider
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    I don't at this point. The only info I have on cross wires is for EDO from Kenmore on a C-170 so since I am not sure what float I will end up with, I figured I'd cross that bridge later. Should I need attach points at the strut I think it would be easy enough to do later with holes or whatever. Do you have a better suggestion?
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  3. #403
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    The Cessna 170 has an all aluminum fuselage. Yours is a steel tube fuselage. You should use a type similar to yours for your model. The 170 has a strap which bolts under the bolt on fitting. This is the front fitting on my Cub. PeteSmithCub11June1012009.jpg The rear fitting is similar. Basically all, except the early PA-12 and Cessna 140, require the cross wires so will need a place to anchor at the fuselage. There are a number of methods to accomplish this. The Cessna 180/185 used an eye bolt which attaches the strut to the fitting with the cross wire attached to the eye bolt. This should give you the idea.
    N1PA

  4. #404
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Sky!! I can easily add 2 ears for an eye bolt to attach. Would a 1/4" ID be about right?
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  5. #405
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    Yes
    N1PA

  6. #406
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    For those of you who use an access panel on the rear of the fuselage, is it hinged or just attached with screws?

    I'm putting an aluminum panel on the right side of the rear fuselage to allow access to the elevator attach points and trim control as well as the rudder linkage and my plan is to put a hinge on the bottom of the panel and use tabs and nut plates on the front, rear and top of the panel. I will also mount the ELT back there with an external antenna inside the fuselage so I will need to access that to inspect, change batteries and so on.

    I'm also putting an aluminum panel on the bottom of the fuselage to absorb impacts from rocks and trash thrown by the prop. Other than a little weight, is there any reason not to just continue the panel up to the top of the fuselage on the left side attached also with machine screws into nut plates rather than using one piece of fabric on the left side?

    Any thoughts will be appreciated as usual!!
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  7. #407
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I use something like this: It makes life easier and less time consuming to remove the panel. It also helps that I have a box full of them.
    N1PA

  8. #408
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    I thought about that too but I have a double handful of rivnuts and a few hundred #8 nut plates so that's the way I'm going I think. Cordless screwdriver with a clutch makes screws much less of a hassle that they used to be. I can't even find a regular Philips screwdriver anymore since I always look for the cordless. I've also stopped using air tools because they are so noisy and have gone to cordless Lithium tools...life is good with Makita!! I will use the finger tab jobs for things like the cowl and oil door.
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  9. #409
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    Any idea what this plane might be? It was on a training carrier in 1942 stationed on Lake Michigan.
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  10. #410
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    Photo lost in last post

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  11. #411
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  12. #412
    Lowrider
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    OK, Any suggestion on how to transition from fabric to aluminum?

    I'm thinking of something that would allow the aluminum to slide under it so air flow can't get under the aluminum piece while in flight. Just not sure how to do it or attach it to the fabric.
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  13. #413
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    Nice work skibum!! That's it...thanks!!!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  14. #414
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    Spent several hours in the rain (don't ask) bending my wing spars and they turned out very uniform and just the right size as they should be. I'll spend the day tomorrow cleaning the edges and trimming to the proper length and get them laid out to drill and rivet. I still have a lot of work to do on the fuselage, but starting the wings gives me a feeling of accomplishment and a little diverse work rather than just working with tube and CM and a break from welding.

    Still wondering how to transition from the fabric to aluminum on the rear of the fuselage. Any ideas?

    OK.,..I'll tell why I was bending the spars in the rain. The fellow who's 10' brake I was using is outside his shop since it was set there when delivered and it weighs 4500 lbs and he can't pick it up and bring it inside. He is going to build a roof over the brake but hasn't gotten around to it yet so we worked under a tarp and used my truck tailgate as a work bench. Not the best of conditions but the results were good so no complaints.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  15. #415
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    ..Still wondering how to transition from the fabric to aluminum on the rear of the fuselage. Any ideas?
    Generally there is a piece of flat steel welded to the tubing. The fabric is then wrapped around behind and glued on. Taut fabric can distort the flat steel, so plan accordingly. Then the flat steel is used as a "window frame" for the aluminum access panel. Then depending on the size and shape of the panel, it can be hinged, screwed, "quick" fastened, etc. Let your imagination go at it. Just be sure the the part of the cover facing the wind has enough stiffness or support to keep the wind from lifting it. There are all sorts of ideas which will work.
    N1PA

  16. #416
    Lowrider
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    Thanks Sky,

    I was thinking of using a folded over piece of aluminum on the front edge screwed to the tabs but I think your idea of a welded piece of maybe 0.032 CM on the tube is a better idea and would be make a more secure way of tucking the panel under, then nut plates on the aluminum to secure it in place.

    I know there are lots of ways to "skin the cat" but I like using tried and proven methods when possible and appreciate your insight!!
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    ... and would be make a more secure way of tucking the panel under, then nut plates on the aluminum to secure it in place.
    If you do it this way, keep in mind that the turning action of the screws against the fabric can do some damage to the fabric. You could joggle a strip of aluminum and rivet it behind the cover plate to form a slot. Then just slide this slot over the fabric covered "window frame". This will hold the cover in place without any fasteners through the fabric. The fasteners, which could then go on the trailing edge, would hold the slot from sliding off. You could place this type of slot on two adjacent edges of a panel which would make it very stiff. Then, depending on the size of the panel, it might require only one fastener.

    There are so many ways to skin this cat that you need to let your imagination run wild.
    N1PA

  18. #418
    Lowrider
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    That's a better way to do it.

    I have already welded tabs but I can still do the adjacent sides idea...with the top and front of the panel to hold it solid in the wind and keep water out of the back of the tail. The panel tapers obviously and is about the last 3 feet of the fuselage and will have slots for the horz stab front and rear attach points so it's not just a simple piece of aluminum. I'm thinking of rolling some stiffeners into the aluminum to make it less susceptible to flutter in flight.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  19. #419
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    I have an access panel under the tail of my Cub which I rolled a large diameter bead down the center with a Harbor Freight 18" bead roller. It did a nice job of stiffening the panel. It is not necessary to make the bead very deep.
    N1PA

  20. #420
    Lowrider
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    That is the same one I have. It works well as a cutter also as long as you can keep the feed straight. I'm thinking several smaller beads on the panels but it isn't easy to keep that straight either. I have some pieces of 3/4" plywood to use as a guide that works OK.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  21. #421
    Lowrider
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    Well, I've tried 4 times to post a picture...the gods apparently aren't with me tonight. I tasked #2 son with building an engine mount so we could tear down my recently purchased engine. He came up with a better idea...bolting a 2x12 under a piece 3/4" plywood bolted to a pair of saw horses. That give a solid mount for the crank flange and lots of area to place things as they come off the engine. A quick trip to Home Depot sourced a 4x8 sheet of melamine which should be easier to clean up than plywood. Some screws and bolts and my engine crane and the engine is ready to start the tear down.

    I tore the oil filter apart and ran a magnet thru it and came up with nothing in the way of metal. We'll see how the inside looks as it comes apart.

    I had a talk with a few folks about ignition and the suggestion was replace the mags with a Light Speed system....save weight, get more fire and still have redundancy. Any thoughts from those using that system??
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  22. #422
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Or P mags, electronic, but perhaps a little less complicated. Search will provide all the useful data.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

  23. #423
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What Bill says.
    Light Speed http://www.lightspeedengineering.com...rder.htm#bkmk1

    P-Mag http://www.emagair.com/E-MAG_product_page.htm

    Spark plugs http://www.rockauto.com/

    I am using dual P-mags with iridium auto spark plugs from Rock Auto. Simple, smooth, price was right and works great. P mags are about the same size as magnetos, so you can not move the engine any closer to the fire wall.
    N1PA

  24. #424
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    Thanks gents!

    I looked at P Mags but I ended up with an H2AD with the single drive so that pretty well rules them out. One of the reasons I went with that engine was the ability to use electronic vs. mags which gets rid of one of the perceived problems with the H2AD. There are a number of auto electronic ignitions that can be programed to work on an airplane engine as well as the Light Speed system. These will also interface with electronic fuel injection via throttle body to further enhance engine performance. Not sure I'm ready to go there yet but it is an option. Ellison throttle body looks like a better option.

    In my youth, some many years ago, I built "hot rod" engines to make 4 wheeled vehicles go fast and it just seems there should be a way to get better performance from a 320 cubic inch engine even without increased compression or stress to the engine. Better induction, exhaust and ignition should come up with a little improvement and still maintain good reliability.

    Thoughts?
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  25. #425

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    Lowrider, As an old Gearhead who's been bitten by the aviation bug, I too struggle with ways to get better performance from 1940/50's technology aircraft engines. Volumetric efficiency is the key, but the design of these engines is the roadblock (in my opinion). Stroke it... the 0-340 engines produce good power for the inches. Port N polish to let it breath, but the valves get in the way and you can only do so much. Electronic ignition is a must! And as you mentioned a better flowing exhaust. Sky Dynamics has a great induction system, just save up your money their not cheap. So nothing new to tell you just My 2 cents.

  26. #426

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    Hi low rider, the h2ad is a somewhat odd engine in my opinion. The case and sump are a lot different then an a2b or e2d ect. The yellow sump pictured is a d/e model sump and the other is an h2ad. They are a good engine, just different.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  27. #427
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    Clint makes a great cross-flow exhaust system. Quiet too. I've got one on my O340.

    And I would agree that electronic ignition is an excellent way to go. Timing that changes as needed rather than lawn mower technology ignition means more power on less fuel. I have Lightspeed and it has been trouble free.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  28. #428
    Lowrider
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    Steve,

    Right on!! Why can't we just slap a set of headers, a new intake and a Holley double pump on it and mop up the competition!

    Clint,

    I thought long and hard on the H2AD and I've found a first run engine that looks to be in great shape. I had one in a '79 C-172 that I flew all over southern Alaska, all the time wishing it was a SC and it was a strong engine that should give my LSA build the performance I'm looking for. I know they are a sorta unique engine and parts are getting hard to find but with a good build I think it will serve me well. I have my eye on those exhausts you guys build!!

    Spinner,

    I've thought about stroking but I wonder if it really makes a big difference? Guess you are happy with yours. BTW, I was in your neighborhood a few weeks ago taking my wife to the buffalo grounds. I keep thinking I want to do a canoe trip down the Flathead.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  29. #429
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    I was just over on the J-3 site and noticed some folks are using Warp Drive props on their 0-200 powered cubs so I went to their site and was a little confused what their max horsepower rating might be. Then I remembered that Ivo Prop made a higher performance prop so I went to their site and they apparently have props that will handle up to 700 HP, are ground or air adjustable. Here's info from their site:

    IVOPROP Magnum Propeller
    For engines up to 700 hp
    30"- 90" pitch range
    58"- 76" diameter
    • in flight or ground adjustable pitch
    • for engines up to 700 H.P.
    • carbon/graphite fiber/composite
    • 30 day money back guarantee
    • all blades protected by stainless steel leading edges
    • light, strong, efficient, quiet, smooth
    • size between Ultralight and Magnum
    • good for fast planes - scaled down Magnum shape
    • unique pitch adjustment design no protractor or pitch blocks required for ground adjustment
    • low drag hub
    • beautiful high gloss black gelkote finish
    • easily and quickly converts from 3 blade into 2 blade configuration - giving you a spare blade
    • blades individually replaceable

    Are there any being used on Super Cubs or the like and if not, why not? I'm pretty well sold on the Cato prop but the ability to ground adjust and tune them to what you're doing with the plane such as adjust to a cruise prop when you are not needing climb performance is attractive....or am I missing something?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  30. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Spinner,
    BTW, I was in your neighborhood a few weeks ago taking my wife to the buffalo grounds. I keep thinking I want to do a canoe trip down the Flathead.
    let me know the next time you're coming this way and I'll show you around. We do a lot of floating on the Clark Fork too. Not so much on the Flathead.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  31. #431
    Lowrider
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    Same here!! We spend a lot of time on the big lake at the mouth of the Clark Fork around Johnson Creek as well.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  32. #432

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    Lowrider, I may be wrong, but I don't think the IVO folks want you to use their propeller on a direct drive big bore engine. Maybe the small Continentals are OK, But I think the O-320 and O-360 Lycoming are not recommended.

  33. #433
    Lowrider
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    Steve,

    I used to think that but their site say "up 700 HP" so I don't know.
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  34. #434
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    Flap ribs

    DSC_0017 (1024x683).jpg

    I spent the better part of the day making the nose ribs for my flaps. I have sore hands from cutting out the pieces of aluminum but I'm down to only finish work for tomorrow. I will take on cutting and bending the flap spars over the weekend and maybe start the layout...but I'm pretty sure I will hear the call of "better go bear hunting" so I'll lose some time...oh well....so many things...so little time!!
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  35. #435
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Lowrider,
    Looks good. Did you decide not to have a slot between the wing and the flap when they are down? That lower leading edge shape will spoil the air flow, if you do have a slot.
    N1PA

  36. #436
    Lowrider
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    No Sir, I still plan on using the bottom hinge location. I thought the gap is supposed to enhance air flow over the top of the flap when it is down. It seems to me the bottom front edge will have little effect on the air flow on the bottom of the flap since it is already in "dirty air" due to the flap being lowered into the air flow under the wing. First 20 degrees gives lift then the next 20 degrees are mostly drag anyway...right?

    Where did I go wrong here?
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    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  37. #437
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The flap is a wing. The flap needs to have a nice clean airfoil shape like the wing. Your shape will produce a flat leading edge which will generate turbulence thus destroying the smooth accelerated flow through the slot. Look at a Super Cub, a Cessna, a Citabria or any other type of plane which has flaps. They are all basically the same, curved, not flat.
    N1PA

  38. #438
    Lowrider
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    So it should be like the wing leading edge and not round?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  39. #439
    Lowrider
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    I took a quick look at Bugs' build site and best I can tell the flap looks like a wing as you describe with the leading edge flat on the bottom and rounded on the top. I want to do some more looking before I redesign my nose and the false spar contour to allow for the roll down of the flap. How much gap is appropriate?

    The biggest reason I went with the Riblett wing is the top end speed advantage over the Cub so I really need to think this thru before I make a change that will impact cruise speed to gain less stall speed/better slow speed handling. Everything is a trade-off I suppose. I'm thinking the flaps will give me a lot more flight options regardless of the gap or not.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  40. #440
    Lowrider
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    Sky,

    I understand why the flap gap allows the air to flow better over the flap, however,if I remember correctly, when I had a Horton STOL kit put on my 172, years ago, it included flap gap seals on top of the wing to keep the air attached when the flaps were down. The kit did improve slow speed handling but I don't know how much the gap seal contributed overall. It also had a stall fence which Dave Calkins seems to think has no effect. Still thinking and looking.....what size is the gap on your Cub?
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

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