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Lowrider LSA

He didn't find any wings yet but he has another high maitenance wife! I'm going to talk with the Bearhawk designer today on some Patrol questions. I'm going to run the O-320 question by him and see what he says. I'm sure he will cringe as most designers do when people want to add more power right away.
 
I was going to broach and 0-320/160 with Bob but had the same reservation. I'm thinking along that line if I go with his design and I believe as long as I stay a bit below the 140 VNE the plane shouldn't care one bit whats pulling it along. A little extra tube here and there should take up for the extra weight and all will be good...I think.

I had a high performance/high maintenance wife once and I'm here to tell you they ain't worth it...IMHO!!
 
Yeah, O-320 with SkyDynamics flywheel, rear mount Alt (if want electric), Hartzel starter. What else is out there, lightweight sump? Throttle body lighter than carb? P-mag(s), Catto prop, lighter cowl, etc.
 
Its hard to describe the way a 700-800 lb airplane flys, especially when the cg isn't at or a little beyone the forward limit. It's going to be really tough to get that light weight and cg not bumping the forward limit with an o-320.
As long as your going with an o-320, you might as well have flaps. Since you have the power to haul stuff, you might as well have an extended baggage. Since a 320 isn't as easy to hand prop as an 0-200, you might as well have a starter, and electrical system......
Say goodbye to your 800 lb airplane, it's starting to look more like 950-1050, which an 0-320 will have no trouble with, but it won't fly like the 7-800 lb plane.
I'm starting to sound like that cubdriver2 guy!!!
 
Depends on your goals I guess. If you want a kite, build one. How about a Belite? But you can still have your cake and eat it too like a CC Carbon Cub. LSA but still has 180hp.
 
Super,

CG is a good point and with full fuel I better loose some weight too!! A punched up 0-200 would probably be the right answer to get a little extra boost for take-off or maybe the Rotax but they sound awful and are expensive too. I'm not sure there is a practical way to run an 0-320 in an LSA and not cheat on the numbers.
 
Depends on your goals I guess. If you want a kite, build one. How about a Belite? But you can still have your cake and eat it too like a CC Carbon Cub. LSA but still has 180hp.

Don't get me wrong, power is great. I demo'd a carbon cub last year at the lsa expo in Sebring. What a ride!!!!
I'm actually in the planning phase of building another cub and have an o-320 that I am planning to put in it, and would like to make it lsa.
Regarding putting a 320 in the bearhawk lsa, I think it would really be a performer, but I think it would be really hard to make it an lsa. Innovation is what homebuilding is all about. I'd say go for it, but it may get heavy!
 
Of course I'm partial to Bob Barrows designs but I would recommend giving him a call with your questions and concerns, he's always been more than happy to discuss things with builders. He certainly likes to think outside the box and likes to hot rod things a bit so I'm sure he'll be happy to help with MO POWA. Ask him what he has in the proto LSA, I think it's a souped up O-200 that he says makes it climb like his patrol.
 
Bob told me it was a C90-8 that he is flying now and he thinks that's about right for the LSA. I think he started with an A65 and he said it flew fine too. I guess it is all a matter of perspective. I guess the Carbon Cub flies at 80 hp which is <50% but what are the chances of folks really pulling the throttle back that far with an 0-360...I know...that is what the POH says.
 
Bob flew into our field a couple months ago with the LSA. Very nice, I sat in it and very roomy for me at 6' X 225 lbs. Looks like it climbs as good as the Patrol. We were going to see if the LSA would fly as slow as my little single seat Cub but I had a oil problem and stayed in the pattern and landed.
A friend of mine has a flying Bearhawk and he just bought the LSA plans and is cutting tubing. Going to use a lighten 0-200.
There are 3 Bearhawk projects in my hanger and another in a hanger across the runway. Maybe I'll get my BH finished someday.
 
Dan,

That's too bad that you were not able to fly along side the LSA. What engine do you have in your Cub and what does it weigh? Single seat ought to be fairly light.

If you didn't have the Cub, would you follow Bob's design for an under 1320 gross plane?
 
My little Cub is really a Super Koala narrowed down to 24" wide but built to the dimensions of the Koala 202. EW of 450 lbs. Not one part is the same as either one. Powered by a 1835 cc, 60 HP, VW engine. I am using a Helicopter airspeed and the stall speed is about 26-28 knots. Bob list the LSA stall speed at 30 mph.
If I didn't have so many projects, I would be building Bob's LSA.



Dan,

That's too bad that you were not able to fly along side the LSA. What engine do you have in your Cub and what does it weigh? Single seat ought to be fairly light.

If you didn't have the Cub, would you follow Bob's design for an under 1320 gross plane?
 
Its hard to describe the way a 700-800 lb airplane flys, especially when the cg isn't at or a little beyone the forward limit. It's going to be really tough to get that light weight and cg not bumping the forward limit with an o-320.
As long as your going with an o-320, you might as well have flaps. Since you have the power to haul stuff, you might as well have an extended baggage. Since a 320 isn't as easy to hand prop as an 0-200, you might as well have a starter, and electrical system......
Say goodbye to your 800 lb airplane, it's starting to look more like 950-1050, which an 0-320 will have no trouble with, but it won't fly like the 7-800 lb plane.
I'm starting to sound like that cubdriver2 guy!!!

:lol:


Glenn
 
Dan,

Guess it would be hard to get a better endorsement than that. I've been looking around at other sites and Bearhawks seem to be well thought of pretty much everywhere but I gotta take a good close look at his LSA drawings before I make up my mind. I wish I had more time on the East Coast (can't believe I said that) and I would slip down to VA and get a close look at Bob's LSA but I'm leaving for the final trip to Idaho on the 8th....never to return until #3 son graduated from college.....maybe I'll come back for that.
 
Lowrider, the decision will be hard if you are trying to choose between the BH LSA or a cub replica. Both are great choices for an LSA homebuilt. If you choose the BH you are choosing a lightened up version of the Patrol. Lots of reasons to build a cub as well. If you tire of making cub parts you can buy high quality stuff from Javron and other builders of cub parts. I had a cub project up until '08 that I had to sell along with some motorcycles due to some big medical bills. When I started over I decided on the Patrol as my youngest son is not quite 14 and already 6'2". I will need a larger cabin than a standard cub can provide. He fills up the champ already. I'm already building your BH LSA in my pea brain, conical mount O-320 with catto prop. Titanium firewall and min electrics. Having built an RV you probably recognize the way the BH spars are designed. There is a neighbor of Bob's that I have talked with that has flown the LSA quite a bit and he loves it. Bob builds everything with what he considers a full electrical system....two magneto "P" leads. That is a full electrical system to Bob Barrows. When I talked with Bob yesterday I tippy toed around the O-320 idea on the LSA by asking how much horsepower can the airplane take. He responded that 100 hp moves it along as good as an O-360 moves the Patrol. I was too chicken to outright ask about the O-320 going on the LSA. Like you said as long as wt& balance meets requirements the airplane doesn't know what is pulling it along. Who turns down more power?
 
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Thanks Junkie!!

I just got hit with a big problem last night...my wife likes the bigger cabin in the BH LSA and going faster in cruise and it looks like I may be headed toward the BH for those 2 reasons. My wife is pretty understanding but something that I've learn in the 27 years we've been together is that when I have her support on something that she was not that wild about to begin with, I had better take advantage of it before she changes her mind. I already bought Carlson spars for the Cub so maybe I can use them in the BH config or sell them. I think I can build a Cubish LSA with a metal wing and make everyone happy.

The 0-320 is sure tempting and my first thought is lengthen the fuselage to keep the CG right but then that would further add to the weight problem...maybe Bob B. is correct...the 0-200 is the right answer....maybe set up for 115 hp or so....that should be enough I suppose.
 
They already have a BH LSA rib package available and considering the work involved I consider them a bargain. Carlson spars won't be hard to sell or trade. The back seat of the BH Patrol and LSA are very similar to a PA 12 so a pax won't feel the effects of wearing a chrom moly straight jacket. If you decide on the BH you can join me as one of the bastard children of SC dot org. Best flying board on the internet.
 
I remember talking to Richard when he rolled out the RV3. He cringed. What struck me particularly about him was that he hyped nothing; you knew you were getting the straight goods.
 
You're right King...straight talk is hard to find these days.

That reminds me, I haven't asked this question before but I wonder if there is a BH LSA on floats? I guess that is another question I need to answer before I decide what to build. I'm set on having floats for whatever I build which makes the 0-320 even more at home on the nose. I suppose there might be some "beefing" to do on the fuselage to accomodate a float kit. This isn't going to be a "feather weight" plane any way I look at it. I suppose there is a price to be paid for everything in life.
 
If you start beefing it up aren't you just building a Patrol? I'm interested in the Patrol for that reason. I have not seen ether one in real life and don't know all the differances. I wish I could find one or both in the Portland OR. area that I could look at and sit in (6'5" and 250lb).

DRL
 
We built our Bushmaster---stretched PA22 with Smith wings, 4130 steel, 15 per cent bigger tail feathers, as two-place. Just my opinion, and I consider the SC ideal, but a little extra weight is no real handicap getting into and out of tight lakes. Like the Cessna 185 (after the 180 and SCs), the weight and hp worked same way with the Bushmaster, it drops like lead after clearing the trees. 180hp with 84/43.
 
I'm sure the BH LSA will be sturdy enough for floats as is. I have atlee dodge style float fittings going on my Patrol. DRLcub, I think you will like the cockpit of the Patrol if you get to sit in one. Don't know of any in your area right now.
 
There are no LSA's on floats right now, in fact I believe there are no other flying LSA's other than Bob's proto. The Patrol and the LSA, while they share similar designs are not the same, LSA is not a lightened up Patrol but a stand alone design. I talked with Bob some time ago about building a Patrol to LSA weight and he said it would be possible, like the Carbon Cub. That was before the LSA came out. Do you guys see this new medical rule going through at some point and wouldn't that do away with the need for LSA for most of us?
 
I gave up on keeping my Patrol light enough to meet LSA. I have built every welded part for it from scratch so I have a good idea on the weight of everything. I talked to Bob for a while on tuesday and he asked me what all I have changed from the plans so far and it's only one thing besides the aforementioned float fittings. I have added a folding front seat back copying the atlee dodge seatback for the PA18. Bob told me the Patrol proto weighed 970 with composite prop and no elec. system. Later it weighed 1027 on the revised W&B data he sent us builders. Keeping a homebuilt light is important but building it so you use it the way you want is more important. The hot rod cubs at Valdez are impressive but the only time those cubs are that light are when they are competing or practicing for the competition. Can you imagine going camping without your stuff so your airplane will be the king of STOL?
 
DRL,

I'm not sure how much "beefier" the Patrol is than the LSA. I've read that that you can build the patrol light and still do an LSA gross, albeit with not much left for people and fuel. I goal is a light, adequately powered but not overpowered plane. My wife is interested in having the faster than Cub cruise and I still want to be able to do ops on sand/gravel bars and the like for hunting and fishing and just to be able to be there.

My C-170 will do some of that stuff, but not really that well and it looks like the LSA will cruise about the same 120 mph as the 170 with just 2 souls on board. I have the plans for a Cub clone and now the LSA so guess I'm leaning toward the metal wing and the faster cruise and I have a 5 day trip to ID starting tomorrow to think about it before I decide which way to go. There is some advantage in the Cub where I can buy lots of parts if I don't feel like making them. I don't think BH LSA is there yet so that may tip the scale too....so many things to consider...also the label of "bastard child" on the SC site could be a badge of honor!!
 
Do you guys see this new medical rule going through at some point and wouldn't that do away with the need for LSA for most of us?

I'd love to have FAA get off their duff and approve that right now. Then I would build a one ton Cub with an 0-320/160 or so.
 
DRL,

I'm not sure how much "beefier" the Patrol is than the LSA. I've read that that you can build the patrol light and still do an LSA gross, albeit with not much left for people and fuel. I goal is a light, adequately powered but not overpowered plane. My wife is interested in having the faster than Cub cruise and I still want to be able to do ops on sand/gravel bars and the like for hunting and fishing and just to be able to be there.

My C-170 will do some of that stuff, but not really that well and it looks like the LSA will cruise about the same 120 mph as the 170 with just 2 souls on board. I have the plans for a Cub clone and now the LSA so guess I'm leaning toward the metal wing and the faster cruise and I have a 5 day trip to ID starting tomorrow to think about it before I decide which way to go. There is some advantage in the Cub where I can buy lots of parts if I don't feel like making them. I don't think BH LSA is there yet so that may tip the scale too....so many things to consider...also the label of "bastard child" on the SC site could be a badge of honor!!


Low rider

Come to payette. I'd. Check out my cub clone LSA. Mine has 0 235 /775 empty.

Don
 
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