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Thread: Lowrider LSA

  1. #1

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    Lowrider LSA

    Has anyone seen the plans for the Bearhawk LSA? It doesn't look Cubish but it is pretty light. Just wondering if there are lessons to be be learned from the design?

    Inquiring minds and all that....
    Last edited by SJ; 04-01-2013 at 05:58 AM.

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    knucles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Has anyone seen the plans for the Bearhawk LSA? It doesn't look Cubish but it is pretty light. Just wondering if there are lessons to be be learned from the design?

    Inquiring minds and all that....
    Heard thru some friends that it is a nice plane. I did look at it but am waiting for my supercub kit now. After exploring different planes in this catagory , i decided the best for me is a 2200 gross supercub. I have built many planes , mostly high performance but i am really looking forward to this project.
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  3. #3
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Lowrider, why not just build a Cub?

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    Bugs,

    I am, just looking for innovative ideas to put in it. I'm going to build to LSA gross so I'm just trying to find ways to save weight or anything else that may be a good addition. The limited info on the Bearhawk site says it is a new design so maybe there is something to be learned. Like your site....I learn every time I visit it!!!

    I bought a bunch of tube and Carlson spars so I'm getting started pretty soon....but still learning.

    BTW, I sold my house in MD and will be full time in Sandpoint by mid Feb or so and will take you up on your offer to drop by some day.
    Last edited by Lowrider; 01-28-2013 at 11:27 PM.

  5. #5
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Sounds good!

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    A big ass wing for a 700+ lb plane works every time. 175 sq I think.

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    Yes Sir!! Should float like a leaf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Yes Sir!! Should float like a leaf.
    My Sprint has 156 sq/ft and TO weight runs about 500# and fly's at 20 mph. You don't want to have any wind, gusts, wakes etc. around unless you enjoy negative adrenalin rushes. You can have to much of a good thing or be careful what you wish for!
    This brings up a question. Anyone with a super light aircraft add ballast when solo? A cub clone at 1000# T.O. weight has got to be a handful in any gusting wind.
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  9. #9
    7shannon's Avatar
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    Lowrider,
    I am building an experimental cub in Deer Park, WA, about 50 miles from Sandpoint. I too am building within the limits of LSA. Fuse and tail pretty far along and just started wings. come by anytime!
    Kevin
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    Kevin,

    I'll drop by once I get settled in Sandpoint. I'd love to see your project and thanks for the invite!!

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    Here it what it looks like for those who haven't seen one:

    LSA_big_tires3.jpg

    Spec sheet:
    LSA_spec_sheet.jpg

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    I had a long talk with Bob Barrows last week about the LSA and came away with a positive enough feeling that I bought a set of his plans which arrived today. I have not looked at them in great detail yet but they seem to be very much Cub like in the fuselage except for the full length top longerons that run to the top of the wings giving it the straight line back to the horizontal stabalizer. The biggest differance of course is the metal wing with flush rivets and a single strut. Bob says that's what accounts for the 20-30 mph speed advantage over the Cub at cruise on a C 85-8. With no flaps it stalls at <30 mph so he saw no reason for flaps and saved ~40 lbs. It is designed to 1500 gross and can be set up at 1320 for LSA with some extra margin of safety built in to the design. Cruising on 4 gph at 100 mph is appealing. Bumping it to 125 mph runs 6 gph and with 30 gals that gives pretty good range.

    The interior seems to be a fair amount bigger width and height wise and about the same length as a Cub. The view is pretty good in the back and appears to be good up front as well. Bob says you can see over the nose pretty well. I told him tthe ground/prop clearance worried me off airport and he said you can lengthen the legs and run up to 29" tires to get really good clearance. I'm still looking at the suspension but it appears to be the same as tbe one used on the full size Bearhawk which I beleive has been used successfully for a number of years.

    I remember how much fun I had bucking rivets on my RV-4 but a slick smooth wing will certainly make it worthwhile in cruise. All in all it looks like a pretty nice airplane and maybe simpler to build...jury is still out on that one.

  13. #13
    Tim's Avatar
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    Are any flying yet ?
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    As far as I know only the one built by Bob. My plans are SN: 32 so I suppose there aren't many out there. Funny thing though...they are dated in 2004.

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    Don't be fooled... flush rivets are not faster on anything under 120 mph. In fact the second Murphy SR2500 was about 8 to 10 mph SLOWER with flush riveted wings vs the originals normal dome rivets. Consider all those little bumps as vortex generators and save yourself the heartache of dimpling or countersinking all those holes. The only speed increase over the cub would be attributed to the single strut and 1/2 the drag that this offers.
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  16. #16
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irishfield View Post
    The only speed increase over the cub would be attributed to the single strut and 1/2 the drag that this offers.
    And perhaps an airfoil with less drag?
    N1PA
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    The gear is less draggy also. Probably 5 mph right there.

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    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Since this is a cub board I won't go into the attributes of the new Bearhawk LSA but it seems to have picked up steam fast in new builders, more so than the Patrol. Lowrider's plan set numer is 32. The plans have only been offered for about six months, when I bought my Patrol plans (set #2 they had been on the market two years. The wings are labor intensive but not very complicated. The cabin is roomy and long so those long in leg would appreciate that. There will be pre welded kits available soon but if you like welding and fabrication then any of Bob's designs are for you. I think the ideal engine would be a C-90 but would like to see a Rotax 912 on one. I think a realistic empty wt. on one with minimum elec and a small continental would hit around 775-795, about what a homebuilt PA11 would be. Like a cub fuselage the airplane can be built with a left door. I'm way too deep into my Patrol project to start over but if and when I do the sport pilot deal it would be an airplane to consider. I wouldn't try to convince any cub purists to switch over, especially on the biggest cub board on the internet. Always good to see new designs that are worthy of a look.

    Edit: I don't know why that smiley face is there, I didn't put it in and I'm not a smiley face kind of guy. I tried to edit and delete it but it didn't take. Was meant to say set #28.
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 02-03-2013 at 11:46 AM.

  19. #19

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    Junkie - I'd like to hear about the attributes of the Bearhawk LSA. There is no issue with posting information like this on a SuperCub forum...
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    When the number 8 and the ) are put next to each other the computer recognises that as the Smiley with sunglasses on just as ; with - and ) is a wink.

    John Scott
    While I respect the folks that use Cubs to make a living, my uses are for recreation and leisure - AND I'M NOT ASHAMED!!!
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  21. #21

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    The 912s ( geared 100 horse) would weigh a bit LESS then the A-65 while offering very similar burns. My T-craft and my current 912 bird just about identical there, except the Rotax pulls like a strongO-200.

  22. #22
    Tim's Avatar
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    I can see it now a Bearhawk LSA with an 0-320 in it to compete with a Carbon Cub

  23. #23

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    912S would make sense weight wise in many LSA and maybe it is just me, but the Rotax makes a really irritating sound that pierces my David Clarks about 10 minutes into any flight. I'll take a C-90 or 0-200 any day!!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    912S would make sense weight wise in many LSA and maybe it is just me, but the Rotax makes a really irritating sound that pierces my David Clarks about 10 minutes into any flight. I'll?

    ake a C-90 or 0-200 any day!!
    I haven't noticed that in 1200 hrs. of 912 time, with quite a few 8 to 12 hr days. Telex ANR headset, Sirius sat radio on all the time. Having said that, I really liked the way my A-65 sounded! I also liked being able to prop it. Of course, I had no choice....no electrical system.
    Sound like a A-65 with 912s performance would be pretty sweet.

  25. #25

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    Probably just me but the Rotax buzzzzz and Cont. hummmmmm. I'm sure it's just me.

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    Probably a prop problem, not the engine, they are smooth as silk. Some guys don't set their (grd adj pitch) props up right. Some lsa's have real light lexan windshields, must be doing some harmonic thing.

  27. #27
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    courierguy, I think that Lowrider is just referring to the noise that the Rotax makes as opposed to the Continental. I'm with Lowrider, I find that high rpm chainsaw noise objectionable also. That isn't saying that there is anything wrong with the engine.
    N1PA

  28. #28
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    The sound of the 912 is certainly not like a lyc or continental but I was impressed with the engine when I rode in a Zenith 701, one ugly airplane but impressive performance. I realize the 30's era technology while dependable is 30's technology and its time to move ahead. I just don't like the price of the Rotax engines. I can buy a serviceable small continental and all the raw materials to build an LSA like the Bearhawk or PA 11 replica for the price of the Rotax. Guess thats my stumbling block. The ship I rode in had some type of ground adjustable three blade that worked well but just doesn't look rugged enough to take off airport. The hub was a big chunk of CNC machining that looked out of place on an airplane. My fondness of the Bearhawk designs is in the wings, I like the all metal wings. The Patrol and the LSA have a Riblett airfoil too. I have a Champ anyway so an LSA isn't necessary in my stable except the Champ comes with the pain of certified airplane blues.

    edit: I wonder what the military does with the high time Rotax drone engines, used market?
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 02-04-2013 at 09:49 AM.

  29. #29
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    How come all you guys building Cub Type LSA's experimentals are limiting yourself to the C90s and Rotax? What's wrong with 170-180hp? Cub Crafters figured out how to do it. Plenty of weight saving techniques for the Lycomings out there. My friend is rebuilding a C85 for his L-4 and the amount of money he is pouring into the overhaul he could have done the same with an O-320/360. Too much fuel? Pull the throttle back. Power there when you need it. Just a thought.

  30. #30
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Good point Bugs but it takes discipline. I have a friend who went from an O-320 RV6 to a Harmon Rocket. He convinced his wife he would just fly around at 45% power most of the time and burn about the same amount of fuel. He never did do that, all that power is a drug and he used it. He doesn't have the Rocket or the wife anymore.

  31. #31
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Junkie, that's pretty funny! Hope your friend found some other wings.

  32. #32
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    He didn't find any wings yet but he has another high maitenance wife! I'm going to talk with the Bearhawk designer today on some Patrol questions. I'm going to run the O-320 question by him and see what he says. I'm sure he will cringe as most designers do when people want to add more power right away.

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    I was going to broach and 0-320/160 with Bob but had the same reservation. I'm thinking along that line if I go with his design and I believe as long as I stay a bit below the 140 VNE the plane shouldn't care one bit whats pulling it along. A little extra tube here and there should take up for the extra weight and all will be good...I think.

    I had a high performance/high maintenance wife once and I'm here to tell you they ain't worth it...IMHO!!

  34. #34
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Yeah, O-320 with SkyDynamics flywheel, rear mount Alt (if want electric), Hartzel starter. What else is out there, lightweight sump? Throttle body lighter than carb? P-mag(s), Catto prop, lighter cowl, etc.

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    Its hard to describe the way a 700-800 lb airplane flys, especially when the cg isn't at or a little beyone the forward limit. It's going to be really tough to get that light weight and cg not bumping the forward limit with an o-320.
    As long as your going with an o-320, you might as well have flaps. Since you have the power to haul stuff, you might as well have an extended baggage. Since a 320 isn't as easy to hand prop as an 0-200, you might as well have a starter, and electrical system......
    Say goodbye to your 800 lb airplane, it's starting to look more like 950-1050, which an 0-320 will have no trouble with, but it won't fly like the 7-800 lb plane.
    I'm starting to sound like that cubdriver2 guy!!!

  36. #36
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Depends on your goals I guess. If you want a kite, build one. How about a Belite? But you can still have your cake and eat it too like a CC Carbon Cub. LSA but still has 180hp.

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    Super,

    CG is a good point and with full fuel I better loose some weight too!! A punched up 0-200 would probably be the right answer to get a little extra boost for take-off or maybe the Rotax but they sound awful and are expensive too. I'm not sure there is a practical way to run an 0-320 in an LSA and not cheat on the numbers.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    Depends on your goals I guess. If you want a kite, build one. How about a Belite? But you can still have your cake and eat it too like a CC Carbon Cub. LSA but still has 180hp.
    Don't get me wrong, power is great. I demo'd a carbon cub last year at the lsa expo in Sebring. What a ride!!!!
    I'm actually in the planning phase of building another cub and have an o-320 that I am planning to put in it, and would like to make it lsa.
    Regarding putting a 320 in the bearhawk lsa, I think it would really be a performer, but I think it would be really hard to make it an lsa. Innovation is what homebuilding is all about. I'd say go for it, but it may get heavy!

  39. #39
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Of course I'm partial to Bob Barrows designs but I would recommend giving him a call with your questions and concerns, he's always been more than happy to discuss things with builders. He certainly likes to think outside the box and likes to hot rod things a bit so I'm sure he'll be happy to help with MO POWA. Ask him what he has in the proto LSA, I think it's a souped up O-200 that he says makes it climb like his patrol.

  40. #40

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    Bob told me it was a C90-8 that he is flying now and he thinks that's about right for the LSA. I think he started with an A65 and he said it flew fine too. I guess it is all a matter of perspective. I guess the Carbon Cub flies at 80 hp which is <50% but what are the chances of folks really pulling the throttle back that far with an 0-360...I know...that is what the POH says.

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