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Thread: PA 12 Want to add Flaps

  1. #1

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    PA 12 Want to add Flaps

    I have a 1947 Totally stock PA 12 that I would like to install flaps on,What company sells the parts or kit and what is the best STC? I bought this plane out of Van Nuys California a couple years ago,they had removed the fabric from the wings,so I flew down rented a U Haul loaded it in was back in Seattle 23 hours later,now it has set in my garage waiting,has not even made it to my Hangar at KPAE.
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.Thanks

  2. #2
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    univair or dakota cub for the parts... I don't 'think' there is a kit, but i could be wrong....

    you WILL want to do a MUCH better job of how the pulley mounts get welded to the fuselage, especially the one in the upper longeron?? as it pulls a chunk of the tube off with it when it rips off(and you are instantly dumping your flaps at what might be an inopportune time!!)

    I have pictures bellow in my picasa of the beefier mounts...

    you will also want to make my pulley positioning tool, will save you a BUNCH of time... in this thread http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...ght=cool+tools post #37
    video

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    Thanks Mike,which album?And about where in your photos?IN PA 12 project for Russell?
    Oh and your pully positioning tool is great!

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    I added flaps last year and used Dakota Cub parts, they have a complete package that includes everything you'll need except maybe the pulleys. I was very impressed with the superb quality and fit of each and every one of their parts. Also friendly and very helpful on the phone.

    The only STC I know about for flaps is Ron Sullivan's 907-345-4630, Rsullivan@alaska.com, I think he calls himself day/night or something like that. Some of the pa-12 flap threads here talk about problems with a couple of measurements in his drawings but as I recall he had a one page addendum to the stc that warned you about that and frankly it all was pretty straight forward. I did find it helpful to mount the wing on the fuselage before recovering the wing just to make sure the flap and aileron cables don't fowl. The STC also calls for moving the aileron cable turnbuckles inside the wing to little different position, I moved them inside the fuselage and it worked great. The carry through one centers overhead and the other ones are on the vertical cables right by the back windows. they work great, just leave yourself some extra cable as you build them up and fit will come out fine.
    Last edited by MT12; 11-25-2012 at 02:11 PM. Reason: wrong phone number

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    here's a link to the dakota cub flap kit:

    http://dakotacub.com/index.php?optio...id=626&cat_id=

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    Thanks,do you have photos of your finished installed flaps?And is there STC for landing lights?

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    check your private messages for a question about the photos you'd like. Regarding the landing light, I don't think you need an STC for installation, it was part of the original TC, and is shown in Piper Drawing 12534, dated 7/28/1948 but those here with lots more experience than I may be able to better answer that

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    TCDS A780 item 602 allows for installation of flaps per Mainair or Marden drawings. In the years this website has been active it's surprising nobody has come up with those drawings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    TCDS A780 item 602 allows for installation of flaps per Mainair or Marden drawings. In the years this website has been active it's surprising nobody has come up with those drawings.
    Does that meen you would not need an STC?

  10. #10
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    Does that mean you would not need an STC?
    Yes, you would not need an STC as long as you used the Marden drawings. If you used someone else's drawings then you would need what ever that approval required.
    N1PA

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    So if you don't need a STC with the Marden drawings where can you get Marden drawings?
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Yes, you would not need an STC as long as you used the Marden drawings. If you used someone else's drawings then you would need what ever that approval required.

  12. #12
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    So if you don't need a STC with the Marden drawings where can you get Marden drawings?
    Marden was an airport operator in Waterville Maine a long time ago. The rules were different back then. I would go to the FAA office which holds the TC for the PA-18 and ask. If they have the drawings or can tell you where to find them you would then need to ask permission of Piper to look at them. And then go to the FAA office to see them. Your local FSDO should be able to help you go up the chain of command on this.

    OR, perhaps someone here who is near Waterville Maine could make local inquiries as to what happened to the old Marden stuff? Is there an old timer in Maine here who has that answer?
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    So if you don't need a STC with the Marden drawings where can you get Marden drawings?
    Review this thread for a couple of clues that may help you. I'm surprised nobody here has better info but it's been discussed before and nobody's stepped up with drawings. I used the Day & Night STC when I did it because the guy I bought the project from already had purchased it. That may be the path of least resistance for you. It's only money. You'll start saying that a lot once you start modifying a -12.

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...729#post555729

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    Thanks this link just opens a new page with this same forum
    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    Review this thread for a couple of clues that may help you. I'm surprised nobody here has better info but it's been discussed before and nobody's stepped up with drawings. I used the Day & Night STC when I did it because the guy I bought the project from already had purchased it. That may be the path of least resistance for you. It's only money. You'll start saying that a lot once you start modifying a -12.

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...729#post555729

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    I never said I was smart. Where's that 5th grader when you need one? Try this link.

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/archiv...p/t-23944.html

  16. #16
    flybynite's Avatar
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    I think these photos are of a Marden installation. They are in my gallery along with others.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wayne

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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra bravo View Post
    I never said I was smart. Where's that 5th grader when you need one? Try this link.

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/archiv...p/t-23944.html
    Thanks,I read that thread and it looks like Kenmore Air has copies of the drawings,I happen to live about 20 minutes from Kenmore Air so I will drive by next time I get a day off,to see if they still have them.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    I think these photos are of a Marden installation. They are in my gallery along with others.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wayne
    Thanks was looking at the other thread above,I am going to check with Kenmore Air to see if they still have plans.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    I think these photos are of a Marden installation. They are in my gallery along with others.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wayne
    How do I find your gallery of photos?

  20. #20
    cruiser's Avatar
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    I have 2 pages of the Marden drawings, one fuselage and one wing. As I recall, I believe PA-14 parts were used, the flap handle mounted underneath the seat as shown in the previous photo's and the flap cable went aft underneath the seat in the center of the fuselage to behind the current baggage, not 18 style up the side. I think I saw a 12 with this setup once and would not recommend it. And 18 parts are availible.

  21. #21
    flybynite's Avatar
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    I tried to post a link to my gallery, but it only seems to link to one huge pic.

    Here are the ones in the gallery in addition to the ones previously posted.

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    Most of the attachments are pics of the flap handle attachment to the seat frame. The owner of the plane used the wire to hang the frame to paint it. The two pulley mounts are typically reinforced to prevent ripping them off the tubing.

    Like Cruiser said, the flap cable parallels the control stick connecting link , goes under the rear seat to the mechanism located near the elevator bellcrank located behind the rear seat. (shown in my earlier post) The turning pulley here (third thumbnail in the attachments) is located on the diagonal member that comes from the cabin top to the longeron. Sullivan's stc moves this one back to the longeron. The cable then follows the diagonal to a double pulley mounted near the top of the diagonal and out to the flaps.


    Confused yet?


    Cheers
    Wayne
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #22

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    Any one have a list of what all is involved in adding flaps to a 12? My wings were already uncovered when I bought the airplane,fabric on fuselag looks good,I know some has to be removed to add pullies,also would like to do 18 tailfeathers.

  23. #23
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    Any one have a list of what all is involved in adding flaps to a 12? My wings were already uncovered...
    Fuselage:
    • add flap handle and mounts
    • add pulley mounts (if you make them like I show you can do the welding through small holes in the fabric (TIG)
    • add cable


    Wings:
    • you will convert each long rib where flap goes to a short rib like where ailerons are, by riveting/or screwing in a small angle piece & cutting of unused rib
    • you will add 2 flap hangers per wing
    • you will add a bell crank and spring and such ...
    • install trailing edge/false spar.. screw and rivet as needed
    • install cable
    • fit and adjust flap...
    • done

  24. #24
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    where is the thread withe the pics of the very simply -12 flap handle mounted to just the side tube???

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    Thanks this is just what I was looking for

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    So why are some of the 12 flap conversions not all the way to the fuselage?Does Ron Sullivans STC make the flaps all the way to the fuselage?

  27. #27
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    So why are some of the 12 flap conversions not all the way to the fuselage?Does Ron Sullivans STC make the flaps all the way to the fuselage?
    I don't remember... but i "think" his are NOT to fuselage..

    also be careful when coming into fuselage, both sides are NOT the same and the fuselage tapers(unlike an -1, so end of flap must match that taper for when flap is in down position, you must hang & rig wings on fuselage to determine the right lengths with flaps in down position...

  28. #28
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    The Sullivan STC does not include extending the flaps to the fuselage. However Charly Center's leading edge cuff STC does include the extension. Yes! Fit them in place, in the full down position, after rigging the wings!
    Gordon

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    Quote Originally Posted by 12 Geezer View Post
    The Sullivan STC does not include extending the flaps to the fuselage. However Charly Center's leading edge cuff STC does include the extension. Yes! Fit them in place, in the full down position, after rigging the wings!
    Where do you find information on Charlie Centers STC?And do you have to install the leading edge cuff at the same time as flaps?

  30. #30
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    Where do you find information on Charlie Centers STC?And do you have to install the leading edge cuff at the same time as flaps?
    http://www.crosswindsstol.com call him, he IS the -12 man!!!!

    on an -18 at least he sells it for just the flap extension... just did one...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    http://www.crosswindsstol.com call him, he IS the -12 man!!!!

    on an -18 at least he sells it for just the flap extension... just did one...
    So do you need Ron's STC and then the extension for the flaps as an extra STC?

  32. #32
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photosfromabove View Post
    So do you need Ron's STC and then the extension for the flaps as an extra STC?
    call him

  33. #33
    R. JOHNSON's Avatar
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    I'm currently buliding up a set of PA-12 wings in which I'm adding the Dakota Cub flap kit via Ron Sullivan STC. I've got the kit but have not recieved the STC yet.

    Can someone tell me or show me a picture of how/where the flap bellcrank return spring attaches to the spar?

    These wings are still using the standard PA-12 tanks.

    Ryan
    Ryan

  34. #34
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    The spring hooks into a tab that's bolted to the spar web. My IA told me to position it so that the spring is stretched an inch or two longer than the print shows, to help the flaps hold their up position.

    You'll want to temporarily rig all of the cables (including aileron cables) and pulleys and bellcrank before drilling or welding and carefully check clearances at all control surface positions. The STC prints result in some interferences.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 10-21-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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  35. #35
    12Geezer2's Avatar
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    Yes : What Gordon says. I installed my springs as per the prints---turned out spring tension was WAY too wimpy in that location. Seems I read some info here on dot org where some even double up on the springs (2 springs) so when parked and encounter wind gusts on the tail the flaps are not getting hammered. geezer Dan

  36. #36
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. JOHNSON View Post
    I'm currently buliding up a set of PA-12 wings in which I'm adding the Dakota Cub flap kit via Ron Sullivan STC. I've got the kit but have not recieved the STC yet.

    Ryan
    not sure if it's that STC, but one of the -12 flap install blueprints has you put the flap hangers in the wrong place/height wise attached to spar/cable interference or such?.... sanity check yourself before drilling the 3/8" holes

    i usually put 2 springs on each bell crank...

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    Ryan, I highly recommend if you have stock tanks upgrade to Dakota 24 gallon tanks at the same time.

    Dakota parts are very nice to work with.
    Likes moneyburner liked this post

  38. #38
    12Geezer2's Avatar
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    As I recall (it's been a few years) Mike is right about flap hangars. At that time I spoke with Mr. Atlee Dodge and he sent me a template for the hangar location. Be sure to double check their location before drilling. Installing flaps was the biggest challenge of the rebuild for this old guy but have been very happy with the results.

  39. #39

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    just finished my flap install. I used Ron Sulivan's STC and bought all the gear from Dakota Cub. Nice stuff and the install was pretty straight forward. The STC shows a bracket to keep the aileron cable supported clear of the flap actuator and shows a part number..., it's phony and you have to have it, so make something yourself. Sullivan's set-up adds longer flaps and moves the ailerons further out on the wings, so there's a lot of work involved. If you want to stick with regular size flaps, Univair has a kit for that. If you are going to keep your front seat as is (with the truss work), I think Sullivan's STC covers the flap handle install on that as well, but if you are thinking of changing to a PA-18 front seat (removing the truss work) then Atlee Dodge has finally completed an STC for that so you can mount the flap handle easier.

  40. #40
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by av8rtom View Post
    ...but if you are thinking of changing to a PA-18 front seat (removing the truss work) then Atlee Dodge has finally completed an STC for that ...
    cool! I knew they started like 5 years ago to get that STC...

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