Hauling fuel in PVC tubes strapped to floats?

[OVEREASYGUY]

I"m wondering if strapping 6 inch PVC schedule 40 tubes on floats and filling them with gas would be a good idea or bad?

Will gas eat up PVC? My plan calls for using epoxy glue to glue a PVC cap on each end and make the front one look like a cone for better aerodynamics.

it would only be for a few days while enroute? Not for long term storage?

One might land in a pond, get out and feed a tube from the PVC up into the gas tanks and pump the fuel into the tanks.

i'm told if the PVC is strapped on with shock chords and not perminent than that's ok with the FAA?

What do you all think?
cliff in Maine

[hottshot]

PVC schedule 40 tubes



What do you all think?
cliff in Maine

Sch 40 will melt .... sch 80 will not..

[Aviator]

Other concerns aside, your PVC can and probably will pick up a lot of static electricity in flight you can't get rid of. A grounding wire from inside the full length of the pipe to the airframe might help, I don't know? I wouldn't worry about the blunt ends, but would use rope to tie it and not fill it completely.

[OVEREASYGUY]

http://www.jenseninert.com/chemical-resistance.htm

This chart says PVC has a GOOD rating for gasoline.

If static electricity is a problem - i would think having the tubes full with little air would be best? After I land, if I touch them am I going to get shocked? What if they have a wire hanging down dragging in the water? would that take care of that problem?
cliff in Maine

[OVEREASYGUY]

http://www.spudfiles.com/spudtech_ar...pic.php?t=7896

here is another interesting link about PVC and gasoline

[fly_cubs]

Why not just get a couple of fuel bags from Bushwheel Bill and not make this any harder than it has to be?

[OVEREASYGUY]

Tim - I love the fuel bags but where am I going to put them? When I fly with camping gear - there is no room for anything else!! I don't want to spend the money on a pod at the moment. Just looking for a cheap way to haul extra fuel. PVC tanks strapped on sounds like a great idea to me?
cliff in Maine.

[OLDCROWE]

Tim - I love the fuel bags but where am I going to put them? When I fly with camping gear - there is no room for anything else!! I don't want to spend the money on a pod at the moment. Just looking for a cheap way to haul extra fuel. PVC tanks strapped on sounds like a great idea to me?
cliff in Maine.

Well then by all means then strap one on...but be sure to have SJ change your screen name to "Roman Caldle" because you may not have the chance afterwards!

[ryanaero]

You would need a fixed-wing external load permit (not available outside of Alaska) or field approval to strap those to the floats.

[SC3CM]

Cliff,
Buy 2 fuel bladders a small hand siphon and 10' of tubing. Take out an inspection plate from the wing outboard of the fuel tank. Roll the bladder up nice and tight then insert it into the wing through the hole and let it unfold. Leave the spout by the inspection plate and fill it using a little hand pump. You'll lose a bit of fuel putting the cap on the bladder, but not too much. Replace the inspection plate and be on your way. To move the fuel from the bladder to the tank simply remove the inspection plate and pump from the bladder to the tank using the hand siphon.


Rene

[hottshot]

Well then by all means then strap one on...but be sure to have SJ change your screen name to "Roman Caldle" because you may not have the chance afterwards!

Not to be morbid , but that is funny as hell!!

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Cliff,
You will never change. You have made up your mind so why ask. Schd. 40 is not approved for use with fuel it is schedule 80. Every manufacturer has a different chemical make up when constructing their own pipe but need to comply with certain ANSI standards. Epoxy is not approved for making a sealed joint with PVC. You need to use pressure glue and primer and if you go through with this idea I suggest a reducer to one inch and install a valve that you can run through a tygon hose into a fuel can. In addition how do you plan on filling these candles and where do you plan on expansion. Also 6 inch PVC will hold .75 of a gallon per foot multiplied by 15 feet multiplied by 6.2 pounds per gallon is about 70 pounds per side if not exactly full the weight will surge aft on your flare. It will be like your girlfriend jumping on the tail.

With that said you will ignore educated logic and common sense and more than likely have the pipe already bought in schedule 40 you have epoxied the caps on and you are heading for Twitchells to fill them so good luck and please have the video cam on for training purposes known as "The Cliff Follies of Flight"
John

[RaisedByWolves]

5G95J55M83K13F63I7c6p5f8d26344e931df4.jpg+Liquid_Containme_4f3368c2a5f61_90x90.jpg= Problem solved safely. Rotopax also makes narrow fuel cans, i have a big one on my 4 wheeler. its only 3 inches wide.

[Scouter]

Ahem, American Champion Scout has 70 gal fuel tanks, we dont need no stinking PVC Okie roman candles

Flame suit on now

Jim

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Hey leave Cliff alone here is his last video from Phils. I did not know after floats he learned helicopters.

[mvivion]

And, strapping an "external fuel tank" to your aircraft would constitute an external load. You DO have an external load permit from your local FSDO, right? If not, the FAA is going to frown on your project.

MTV

[jgerard]

Cliff, if it was such a good idea then someone else would have already done it.

Jason

[OLDCROWE]

Ahem, American Champion Scout has 70 gal fuel tanks, we dont need no stinking PVC Okie roman candles

Flame suit on now

Jim

I had a scout once, traded it for a Jeep and never looked back!

[StalledOut]

You don't want to do that with anything long. If you are going to play with this idea, short tubes kept over the step of the float, like up the struts. Build a 2 x 6 holder with holes in it you can slide the rocket launchers through and strap that down.
If you choke the end down and put a fuse in it, will it work like a bunch of JATO bottles ?
Plenty of external loads flown. Everyone's experience is different but narrow loads down the center of the spreader bars about a foot back from the prop seem to work best.

[mike mcs repair]

now theres a business opportunity for the bushwheel guys,

make a bladder the shape of one of or part of one of the float compartments, that would fit down through the small 6" round hole....

[Douten]

Cliff just pump the fuel into the float compartment that leaks the least, if you get any water in the fuel you can just drain it out of the tank sump . One other thing with your plan is you need floats first .

[Longwinglover]

I'm a little confused. I thought you were going to do a water assisted wheel landing up the beach and onto you secluded fly-in resort area. What's the deal with the floats?? I think Douten has the most common sense solution if you go the float route. Otherwise you could just buy several ABW bags, fill them with gas and drop them into the lake - of course they'll float with gas being less dense than water. Fish 'em out and flii 'er up! Problem solved.

John Scott

[Scooter7779h]

I like the part about the Roman Candle. Do you have a belly pod, that is where those ABW bladder fit nicely? If you need room, break down and realize it and get a modified PA-12, those -18's are so limiting with room.

[Patrol Guy]

just buy gas at the marina.

[cubdriver2]

The BW bag would fit thru the inspection holes if rolled up and you could fill them in place and then pump them out when you need it.

Glenn

[Alex Clark]

Weight and balance would be a nightmare.
The fuel under the pilot area being + 11,, under the rear seat being +37 ,,and +57 for the stuff under the cargo bay.

And of course the thing that can put you into the trees,,,, moving the CG downward..... Which makes low speed turns (banking ) a bit of a problem.

When hauling a Kayak out on the floats (yes external load permit) I had the idea to put a few gas cans inside the Kayak,,,, The drag was bad enough, but the extra weight down on one side, at the end of the float strut, was nearly disastrous...

[aktango58]

test flight on july 4th!

Kirby.... I needed that. I am still cleaning the screen from laughing

[skywagon8a]

... and make the front one look like a cone for better aerodynamics.
What do you all think?
cliff in Maine

The cone should be in the rear for better aerodynamics. And they should be full to prevent sloshing. The sloshing will be able to move the whole plane. You may be surprised at how effective sloshing fuel is.

[mike mcs repair]

Weight and balance would be a nightmare.
The fuel under the pilot area being + 11,, under the rear seat being +37 ,,and +57 for the stuff under the cargo bay.
....

no,
not as long as its full(and not sloshing).... the cg of the load is center of tube

[12 Geezer]

But if not full, as pitch angle changes the CG will move opposite to the direction of a restoring moment. Classic instability - - -

[skywagon8a]

But if not full, as pitch angle changes the CG will move opposite to the direction of a restoring moment. Classic instability - - -

Absolutely with this method of carrying any liquid, if the container is not full, the CG shift could be catastrophic. It would be easy for the CG to shift outside of the ability of the elevator to compensate.

[Aviator]

Fill it, yes; completely, NO. Filling any unvented fuel container to capacity is asking for trouble. Avgas expands and contracts about 1%/15*F (JP-4 about 1%/22*F). Even a steel tank will buckle or rupture under that kind of hydraulic pressure.

[OVEREASYGUY]

Thanks guys. I do have floats Douten - just need to get them on - EDO 2000s.
My dream trip is to go visit my friend Harvey Calden up at near Schefferville, Quebec - that's about 650 miles north of where I live. Harvey runs a camp up there Bigstag.com and has a very cool Beaver too! Anyway it seams to me that loads of fuel would be a great idea! I'm just researching things now and tossing ideas around. Lots of good ones out of this - especially yours John - I listen!
Thanks

Cliff Dow in Maine

[beaver18]

Cliff, i recycle the blue oil can from Phillips oil( 2.5 gal) they fit perfect in the edo hatches and they are easy to get on the wings plus they are free and dont leak .

[skywagon8a]

Thanks guys. I do have floats Douten - just need to get them on - EDO 2000s.
My dream trip is to go visit my friend Harvey Calden up at near Schefferville, Quebec - that's about 650 miles north of where I live. Harvey runs a camp up there Bigstag.com and has a very cool Beaver too! Anyway it seams to me that loads of fuel would be a great idea! I'm just researching things now and tossing ideas around. Lots of good ones out of this - especially yours John - I listen!
Thanks

Cliff Dow in Maine

That will be a great trip. You will need plenty of fuel capacity as there are not many places to get some along the way. There is a lake just outside Sept Isle (Remi Lake? not sure about this name) then Wabush and Shefferville. Nothing else was available the last time that I was there, which was a while ago. I can not imagine much has changed. A slow Cub does need lots of contingency fuel on this route. I did it with a 185 on straight floats with 100 gallons on board and needed it all.

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Cliff,
The fluid containers sold on ABW website will in fact fit in an EDO 2000 hatch. once inside you fill them and close the hatch with a screwdriver. To remove the fuel you compress the bag while forcing fuel into a small 2.5 container. The hatches are located so you can store where you want them for your CG. The load will be stable. The 4 wheeler cans that Tom Ford shows are flat but contain a slot hole in the middle. These can be set on the top of your floats and attached through the slot hole and once again are stable. If you are serious about a float flight to Qubec next season klet me know and I will put my EDO2000s on and go with you. In the mean time go up and see the trains at Eagle above Chesuncook. Land in Eagle and take the short walk to the "Trains to Nowhere" it is a great time and great for your son. Below it is my camp at Shin Pond that you can stay with dock and tie up at Shin Pond Village.
John

[Aviator]

up at near Schefferville, Quebec

Skywagon-man beat me to it. Good advice. I flew for food up there way back when. It's not really SC country; marginal even for a C-180. But if you must, plan to arrive over every fuel stop with at least 2hrs of fuel aboard. There are no navaids, no Wx reporting, no fuel, no people up there, and the compass goes crazy for a while around Mount Wright (Fermont). For long trips the locals set up their own fuel caches.

If you're mapreading, don't take your eyes off the ground directly below you or your pencil off the 4mi/in. topographic map (WAC's and sectionals are useless) for the last 300 miles. You actually draw your track on the map and note time and hdg. every 15 min. If you lose your spot, note your time and heading, then pick a lake to land on. Take the time to draw a rough sketch and orientation of the lake you're going to land on, as well as adjacent lakes. Land, and figure out where you are. Once you lose your spot, you'll never find it by circling back, even in good vis. The terrain is relatively flat with thousands of lakes and they all look the same. If you're putting your trust in GPS, carry a spare independent receiver. Oh, and don't even think about putting down on the St-Laurence if you have engine trouble: It will sink even a yellow sprinkler (CL-215). Best to cross just south of Riviere-du-Loup over the bird islands.

It's an unforgiving land up there even during the summer months. But it could be a great "back to basics" trip if well planned. Just play it safe. My 2c.

[skywagon8a]

It's an unforgiving land up there even during the summer months. But it could be a great "back to basics" trip if well planned. Just play it safe. My 2c.

Very true. It is no place for a neophyte in a Super Cub. Especially one who "THINKS" that he is not a neophyte.

I once took a student on his dual X-country up to about 150 miles north of Shefferville. I gave him the chart and told him to do all the navigating and to never take his finger off the map. He did well and eventually went to Alaska to run his own 135 operation. That dual X-country served him well. In those days the Canadian charts were superb. I think that they were made from photomapping the entire north country.

[sierra bravo]

The greater limitation of a typical Cub will be gross weight, not cubic space. I can load my hunting backpack with tent, sleeping bag, clothing, and provisions for 2 weeks and it'll weigh about 70# including gun and ammo. If I want to live well I can add 15-20 pounds of luxuries in a small rubbermaid tote. Two guys with similar gear doesn't threaten the ability to carry as many fuel cans as I might need. If there's no space for gas containers in the cabin, lose the unnecessary camping crap and move as much of it as practical into the float lockers. Anyone who's hunted or fished out of a chartered Cub knows the 70# drill. Heck, lots of air services use that limit in Cessnas and Beavers, too. It's comical to watch what guys show up with for a 1 or 2 week trip into the woods. That season is upon us once again in Alaska.

[OVEREASYGUY]

I'm up to 650 hours TT, and 450 in my cub - does that mean i'm still a neophyte?