Looking to buy 1st Cub - need advice

[neck101]

I've never owned an aircraft, so any advice will be appreciated. I've been flying since '78 (military and airlines). Only 2 hours of tail wheel time (Stearman, and Carbon Cub at this year's Sun'N'Fun!). In fact, that's the only light GA time I've had since the early '80s. I have been waffling as to certified SC (or something like it), 180/185, experimental, kits, and even some LSA. Friends tell me a good certified SC would probably be best since it has better useful load, would serve my mission better, and most of the depreciation is gone. Problem is I need guidance on what to look for in a "good" used Cub. I think I would prefer a 160 or 180HP.

Since I live in Dallas, most of my flying will initially be local pattern work and short day trips (after I get dual for tail wheel endorsement). Plan is to eventually head to the mountains out west for some backcountry flying once I get comfortable with the plane. Also would like to get my seaplane rating. I've done the fast flying so I'm looking forward to low and slow. Also, I'm not interested in IFR...I do that for a living.

I'm going to OSH next week and plan on touring the cubs up there. Question for all of you....what basic things should I be looking for (other than the overall appearance) to get a better feel if a cub is a good buy or not? I'm not really interested in some "rode hard and put up wet" aircraft that needs a lot of work to restore it...I had just as soon go with a kit before I go that route. I've been reading a lot of comments on this forum and others, so I am becoming more educated on these types of aircraft. I also see so many of these ads on Trade-a-plane and Barnstormers which say the aircraft have been "rebuilt". I realize that is a subjective thing...one guy's idea of a good rebuild may not match my expectations. And before I put the money down, I will definitely have a thorough inspection done.

Thanks,
John

[mike mcs repair]

might consider a beater first.... if you are gonna wreck it learning/exploring your limits..... a nice one wrecks just as quick, and costs more.....

[DesperadoPilot]

What Mike said. Been there, done that....

[Nomeflyer]

I thought a 65K supercub cost just as much as a 150K cub to rebuild. All the replacement parts are the same price aren't they? I think it is just harder on the ego to wreck a pretty one compared to a ugly one.

[sierra bravo]

Buy the best plane you can afford. One that has the equipment you want, the mods you need, and is in good condition so it won't be a maintenance pig. Spend your money, turn the key, and go have fun flying.

[aktango58]

What they all said!

Bob Breeden had a nice one for sale... low time and looked good.

If I was in Dallas, and had your thoughts, I would spend a day and head to Sulfur Springs and check out Legend cub, then take another day and visit Graham's very own Pierce (Armadillo) Aero. I would talk very nice to them and plan on spending the money to have Steve check out planes for me. When he called me and said buy, that is what I would do.

a $60k cub (beater) will cost you a bunch of $$$ when you need to replace the fuselage and fabric from corrosion. The $120k cub sure looks good, but hurts when you bounce the tips and tail through the brush landing at the fishing hole. They all accept floats.

Learning energy management is best done with lower horsepower, but the big engines make it more fun to push the limits.

A $60k cub and a $150K cub are worth about the same when they have been 'field modified' and need to be retrieved by helicopter.

Not going to happen to you????? Well, we all wish that.

A good pilot with a 100 hp light cub will fly circles around his pals that are marginal in skill, with 180 hp engines. High DA and big loads are where the big engines shine.

[DesperadoPilot]

Regardless of what you buy, best advice I can give you is to make sure you got good insurance in case you ball it up. Not a pitch for Avemco, but they sure did me way more than right when I had a mishap several years ago.

[behindpropellers]

Buy the best plane you can afford. One that has the equipment you want, the mods you need, and is in good condition so it won't be a maintenance pig. Spend your money, turn the key, and go have fun flying.

SB hit the nail on the head.

[Taledrger]

Hi John,
A lot of questions need to be asked, especially if you are a first time buyer. I got back into general aviation 12 years ago after a 22 year absence, flying "the other stuff". I can honestly tell you that it was a steep learning curve. Not the smallest of which was, these airplanes had become very old. For that reason alone you need to take great care when selecting an airplane.
Good mentorship is probably the best tool you can use and you've come to the right place. There's a wealth of information to be had from this site and it's members. If your going to Oshkosh and have transportation I suggest you make a run over to New Holstein and checkout the SuperCub flyin. I'll be at Oshkosh with either my Cub or a Cherokee 6 camping in Vintage, Mon-Thur. (flying support for a former Grand Champion so I can't go to New Holstein again). Talking Cubs is my favorite pass time, looks us up if you like. PMed contact info.

[CloudDancer]

HIYA neck101 -

WELCUM to THE # 1 internet "pilot lounge" for everthing SUPERCUB! These are the best peeps and they have all given you very sound guidance already.

Although Graham doesn't have the glitz and glamour of the Metroplex...it DOES have Pierce Aero, and I heartily "second" aktango58's recommendation to pay the man (Steve) a visit. He is known as "The Oracle of All Things SuperCub" and is sought out by people from the other side of the globe for advice and knowledge. It would probably be most advantageous to call ahead and schedule a visit with him.

Whatever you might spend on travel expenses for a short trip to buy Steve lunch and pick his brain for an hour or two, will be regained many times over in acquiring "buyer beware" knowledge.

Insurance is smart too. And the very BEST "insurance" is the finest (read...most EXPERIENCED and QUALIFIED) quality tailwheel instruction you can find. In other words...if the very BEST instructor or program is an extra 20 clams per hour...DON'T settle for 2nd best to save the dough.

Like you, I drive turbojet airsheens to pay my bills...but my heart 'n soul iz ALWAYS in the "little stuff". Fortunately whenever I get back home...I generally am able to get my "fix" with my ol' flying buddies. It'll have to last me 'til i get back permanent.

Best Wishes John

CloudDancer

[neck101]

Thanks for all the advice so far. I agree that initially a lower cost average bird may be the way to go, as long as it would be fairly easy to resell once I decide to upgrade. I just do not want to get a maintenance queen just to save some initial cost. Putting aside the "crash and burn on my first flight" scenario, all my years in aviation have taught me that excellent instruction is a must, followed by flying within my experience level and capabilities (like no 50 foot sandbars or canyon flying right off the bat).

I met Steve Pierce at Sun N Fun this spring at the Dakota booth. Nice guy and we had a good discussion. Picking his brain and using his expertise is a great idea. I also plan to attend his February weekend seminar.

I know that OSH is having cub recognition events this year, but are most of the planes parking at New Holstein? If so, I'll drive over there for a look.

As to what to look for, I know this is a simple design. Is previous damage pretty evident, such as like looking for Bondo on used cars? Same concerns about used engines.

John

[sierra bravo]

neck,

Be aware that everyone has a different standard of acceptable condition. Even good Cub mechanics have different interpretations of what's airworthy or not and different opinions about what needs to done versus what can be left alone. The last guy's average condition Cub may leave you with a $30K initial annual. Find a mechanic or mentor you trust and rule out the big stuff. Any ownership comes with risk and responsibility but you should work to minimize your investment into another guys deferred maintenance.

I've made this statement before and I still believe it's true. Many guys (especially first time buyers) look at an average plane thinking about how much it's worth. I look at the same plane and think about how much it'll cost to fix. That perspective validates spending more for a plane that needs less. It's cheaper to buy somebody else's upgrades and maintenance than to do the same work on your own dime.

[bob turner]

Be sure to fly before you buy. You don't have to do the landing or takeoff, but be sure the thing flies straight and level with only your feet and the trim. If you are able to have Steve Pierce go over it for you, you will be better off.

I only need a long downwind to determine whether it flies straight. Do not let them tell you you can have it re-rigged after you buy it.

On the other hand, if it is cheap enough, you can have it fixed.

[phdigger123]

I bought my first Super Cub a little over a year ago. It is a 1958 PA18A-150. It will never win a beauty contest and the fabric is older. I bought it knowing full well that it would need covered in a few year, but I looked it over head to toe and couldn't find any airframe corosion. It has had only 4 owners, and the last one had it for over 20 years and kept it hangered. It does have a low time engine and flys as straight as you could ever want. When I went and looked at it, I knew I had found the right Cub. It is not well equipped, so it is light. I bought it for much less than one with a recent rebuild, it has been trouble free, and a joy to fly. When I eventually decide to do a rebuild, I will know what I want from an equipment perspective, and had a blast flying in the meantime.

[neck101]

Unrelated question...what setting in my account do I need to check/uncheck to keep from getting an email every time someone posts a reply on my thread? Thanks.

[neck101]

Regarding insurance, other than me having low tail wheel time, does an older bird (40-50 years old) or a bigger engine greatly affect the coverage price?

[8GCBC]

"Cub" type aircraft are 30K to 300K. There is a lot of leg work and research ahead working in between those numbers. Trust no one. Do your homework, it could take months... maybe years before you can fly proud.

My wife used to say it looked like I got dragged behind a horse, when I got home, after working on my aircraft. The work pays off.

[G44]

How about don't ball it up in the first place.

Regardless of what you buy, best advice I can give you is to make sure you got good insurance in case you ball it up. Not a pitch for Avemco, but they sure did me way more than right when I had a mishap several years ago.

[Henny]

Unrelated question...what setting in my account do I need to check/uncheck to keep from getting an email every time someone posts a reply on my thread? Thanks.

Go to "Settings" in the upper right corner and then on the left side of the page, go under "My Settings/My Account/General Settings". Under "Messaging and Notification" you'll find the "Default Thread Subscription Notice" block. From the pulldown menu, select "Do Not Subscribe".

[neck101]

thanks Henny, I'll give that a try

[aktango58]

Insurance.... no on engine issues... just going to pay because it says: PA-(11-22).

If you are flying an 802, is that not tail time? I am told that turbines have no mixture control, so you might need some instruction on 'complicated' procedures, but if you have 100 hours tail you should be fine.


Couple of real quick checks to give an idea on cubs:

1. look at the fuselage ends of the lift struts, and check out the 'forks' that come out of the strut and slide onto the plate holding the strut on. The forks should be about the same length showing from left side to right side. If they are way off, and it flies strait, something is bent. If they are the same and it flies cooked, something is out.

Ribs below the fuel tanks, push up on them for movements.

look at top of wing, and inside, for sections of bent ribs, also check for stitching on top of wing for repairs.

Measure from wing tip to stabalizer corner each side... is it close?

Inside: is it rusty on tubes, are tubes strait.

Check Gear attach fittings for cracks... And I mean with a magnifying glass! They break off of the longeron, and the lower tabs holding the cabane V break out.

Is the horizontal parallel with the wings? (ski planes bend the tail turning, so look for the tail not being square with the wing).

Paperwork... Hire Steve, or Jason Gerard, or another of our great knowledgable guys to go over the plane, and the paperwork to ensure that each mod is legal, and each mod is installed correctly and has the correct paperwork. Hundreds of dollars per piece of paper to get it done correctly.

Check for current wt and balance, and equipment listed. It gives you an idea of how much stuff the owner has "just put it on for a flight or two" ten years ago

Engine mounts are another place, check for bent, cracked, chaffed mount.

Good baffle seals... if they are bad your cooling is bad.

look at cables in tail for rust, and where they come out of fabric on wings and tail for burrs.

Find one you like the looks of, then send in the hired Wrench guys. They are your best defense.

SB has a way with words. "how much will it cost to get it to where I want it" is great logic. Thank you, I will use that!

[8GCBC]

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...h-8083-19A.pdf

The government view on the subject.

[dave]

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...munity+project

This one will be ready to go in two weeks.

[neck101]

aktango58,
that's great...just what I was looking for. not sure what a 802 is though.

dave...beautiful aircraft from what i can see.

[aktango58]

Sorry,

Got confused there... happens often. Need to see my buddie in Oakie country to get straitened out...

There is more to checking log books and airframes than anyone can convey... Pierce is also known as the "Shortwing whisperer"

[promiseplaceJ5]

I went through the same as you over a year ago. 16000 hour pilot....15900 in jets. NO TAILWHEEL time. Best advice, and I have two. 1- take your time on selecting an airplane, and do not limit your choices to what you THINK you want. I went into it requiring only a tailwheel aircraft and a stick vs. a yoke. After watching Barnstormers for over a year I found a pristine J-5C at a real value. It is basically perfect. WAIT for the airplane that really piques your interest! DO not "settle." 2- Find a friend, mentor, etc, or just hire a tailwheel person to get you through the process, including checkout! If you are conservaive/careful and mind your operations you will most likely not "ball it up." It can happen, but prudence and caution and little voices in your head will save your butt. As I gain experience I have become better at all operations (still suck occasionally at landings, but I am getting better and LEARNING). Bottom line: Take your time in the selection process, have a pre-buy inspection done, and get as much dual as you can to get good.

David

[Ruidoso Ron]

Call Scot Warren.

[neck101]

OK, I'll bite....who is he?

[neck101]

Thanks David...good advice. I must admit, though, I had to look up to see what a J5-c is.

[missionflyak]

Get a prey-buy,from someone who knows cubs.

[Taledrger]

Call Scot Warren.

http://warrenaircraft.com/