just got my first plane!...pa-12

[i-fly-low]

hi all, new here and a new owner with that said i have a few questions. i went ahead a got a pa-12 with a 0-320 vg's, pa-18 gear 31inch bushwheels, and a pa-18 tail. and flaps. my questions are as follows:

the bushwheels had a few spots,the seller forgot to mention till i got there, that have some cord showing although i know i bought an expensive toy im trying to avoid a new set right now as they are not cheap( good things never are) i searched and found a thread about line-x "retread" has anyone done this did it work?

compared to the plane i fly for work the stick is heavy, i expected this, but has anyone had any experience with the cub crafter gap seals

ive talked to a few people and all have said, along with a few threads, that i would probably benifit from the borer prop it does well as of now but as i get more comfortable i am sure i would like the shorter t/o however i do not really want to give up cruise it is slow as it is, i know iknow "what did i expect" anyway i was told to look into a 82x43 ... opinions also is there anywhere good to look for a used one? again like the bushwheels they are not cheap

i plan on landing on the sand bars along the river is there any good reading as far as do's and dont's?

i have been told i should have saved my money and got a true pa-18 but i like the damn thing and with a little fine tunning its going to be a great plane! thanks in advance for any and all help

[mongo]

Any larger prop with a flatter pitch will slow you down but it is worth it to me. Its about 2.5 mph for every inch of pitch.
I have heard that Line-x or herculiner will last a bit longer but I would go after a new set before a prop, you don't want a failure on a gravel bar.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

[aktango58]

F.E. Pott's Guide to Bush Flying. You can read most on the web.

Go through old threads here. You will hear good, bad and ugly. Burn gas. Burn lots of gas practicing precision. 9 out of ten times correctly will destroy you and/or your plane at some point off airport.

Your 12, if stock wing setting, will do well, just not as short on to/ldn as an 18. It will fly faster, further, and carry three. The 12 cries for MORE ANGLE OF ATTACK on the ground. The higher the axle, the shorter the takeoff.

The good looking girls like wide cabins, just check out the photo caption contest if you want to argue.

Welcome to the site. Being from down on the bottom, you might want to find a good wing mount for guns, as there is the ODD situation where one of dem drylanders sneaks south for fish poaching... they fly red and white cubs, fly by brail, (bounce off water), and cause all kinds of aircraft-bushwheel-fishing-drinking envy! Known associates include hired guns from Kansas!

fyi: your tires are not legal with chords showing I was always told... read the bushwheel protection thread for ideas

[Superchub]

Let's see some pic's or your new Ride!!!

[dave]

Congrats on the 12, it'll open up a whole new realm for you. I recommend you buy a new set of ABW'S and start wearing them out right away . George does a good job of setting the tone for this group. I'd be careful opening up the photo caption contest in mixed company. We wouldn't want to ailenate your family in the first week. Enjoy that new craft and send us pictures sitting on the some sand bar.

[Tim]

For the spots on the tires Use Tech two way patches and roll them on, if done right they won't come off and will get you some time

[8GCBC]

foto = 1k words

[aktango58]

should mention:

Beware of the Horned Hatted Head of JC from Lodi Ca., pilots near him have been known to be surrounded and forced to participate in Group group, er Hugs with the JC committee. USDA has deemed these activities as addicting!

What is your work bird? Check the tension on your cables also, some mechanics set them tight so they can play music on them. The aileron cables should just show a slight bow in cruise (looking behind the struts). If tight, it makes it makes for big stick tension.

[sierra bravo]

I can't see any bow in my aileron cables behind the struts. I'd better see a mechanic about that.

83/43 Borer on a 150 horse wouldn't be my choice. I have a 42 on a 160 and often wish it was a little flatter. To me the tires and Borer are a two part combo. Tires for AOA and prop for acceleration and deceleration. All the spots you think you need big tires for will need AOA and acceleration to use effectively. Beg to borrow a Borer and take a test flight. If you were up here I'd lend you a loaner. Somebody down there must have one.

[aktango58]

SB,

are you in town Saturday?

Wx permitting, I am just turning around, or staying the night... if it is bad, I might track you down, I owe you a beer.

good point on two part combo... so very true.

[SC3CM]

I'd be careful opening up the photo caption contest in mixed company. We wouldn't want to ailenate your family in the first week.

It can also have the opposite effect. Some women are very competitive!



Rene

[OLDCROWE]

Yea anouther fun volunteer... If your river sand bars are the typical of the big flat souther rivers (Arkansas, Red, etc.) with good approaches don't worry too much about changing props unless you start feeling you can't get out of where you could get in... Some shake their heads at 31's and a cruise prop but for me it works pretty well on my 18. Tires, I've patched and patched and then you orderer a new set, you can save some bucks on shipping if you can catch the Bushwheel mobile in your area and Texas seems to be a magnate for it...

Where are you located, there is a batch of us winged Okies (mostly I the Tulsa area) who love to play in the sand and some Cajuns you should be properly warned about.

Be careful though with sand bars and if you haven't spent time on them on foot, we have an endangered species (Interior Least Turn, there's a reason they are endangered) that nests on our sand bars in the summer and it is a hefty fine to knowingly disturb nests and the bigger areas get watched! You can check the local corps of engineers web site to stealthily check for identified nesting areas.

Welcome and enjoy!

OC

[i-fly-low]

sorry its taken so long to respond ... been working thanks for all the advice so far. i think im going to try the lineX fix ( need tires anyway its worth a shot) aktango 58 my work plane is an airtractor 802 with a -67 im working to the pic thing not very good with computers as far as the speed goes you said it would befaster...than what? the speed of smell? in calm air its about 95 is this right? too slow? is something off? i was expecting a little bit more but .... also turbulent air owns this little plane is this normal? is been along time since ive been in smaller planes i did fly an 18 a number of years back and didnt remember it to be quite as rough but like anything you only remember the good parts....any other help would be great and when i get this pic thing figured out ill get some pics of both posted thanks again for everyones input

[aktango58]

in calm air its about 95 is this right? too slow? is something off?

I remember 110 with a climb prop, and 120 with cruise prop, 2450.

Big tires slowed it down a touch.

Maybe I am thinking 10 mph fast... is your speed mph, or kts?

Fly a champ if you want slow, or the j-3. All relative.

[mvivion]

Speeds and performance are very much an individual thing with these old airplanes. Fly it and enjoy it.

Best thing you can do if you haven't played off airport landing sites before is to look around from the air (maybe while you're spraying....) at some sand bars that are reasonably accessable from a car. Then drive over there, and walk the thing to get a feel for length but mostly consistency, as in do you sink in to your ankles, etc. Also obstacles. Now, you can compare what it looked like from the air with what it looks like on the ground.

Measuring bars: Fly at 60 knots (if your airspeed is in mph,that's 69 mph) over the proposed LZ, and time it from your proposed touchdown spot to the end of useable runway. 60 knots means you're covering a nautical mile per minute, and a nautical mile is about 6000 feet. Simplifies the math, and it turns out you're covering about 100 feet per second. You can use 60 mph if it makes you happy, but I don't do math well, and not at all in my head. 100 fps is easy to calculate.

When you're ready to start a landing approach, roll the wheels on GENTLY at first to get a feel for the surface and softness, etc. Most folks don't realize how easy it really is to gently roll the wheels on and "feel" the runway surface. Roll it out a few times till you're comfortable with approaches, departures and surface, and come back around and land.

Flying patterns over water can be hazardous to your health if there's no wind, since it's pretty easy to fly into the water while maneuvering.

Lots of other things to consider, but if you start gradual, and work your way into it, it's not that difficult.

Also, if there are a few folks around that area that do that kind of flying, go out with them, either in their airplanes or accompanying them with yours. Just be careful not to get too far over your head following someone. I'm guessing if you're flying an 802, you're well familiar with that sort of gig.

MTV

[sierra bravo]

Using mine as a reference a PA-12 with Cub gear and 31s should go about 95. Mine was a little faster on floats (100mph) and is now a little slower with a pod (90mph). I don't fly the -12 to get anywhere fast.

The standard warning for guys out looking for sand bars, go lightly on the brakes.

My primary plane is a 180 and when I first flew my -12 I wondered about the difference in behavior in turbulence. I flew the Cessna on a rough air day and once home I jumped into the -12 to go out in known conditions for a comparison. To me the -12 gets pushed around a little more but since it's slower the bumps aren't nearly as sharp as in the faster plane. Where I get banged in the Cessna I get pushed in the -12. Of course that observed trend can be manipulated by adding weight, too. The -12 gets pushed around less when heavier and the hits are even softer.

[PerryB]

I have the same basic mods as you and also have F.A.Dodge 3" extended gear. With an 82x41 Borer I cruise at 90 mph/ 2475 rpm. If you want a short field machine, get a flat prop and don't sweat the speed (or lack thereof). I'll never understand the concept of buying a large diameter prop, but getting it in a higher pitch in an attempt to maintain cruise speed. It defeats both purposes. -- Of course, there's always the MT constant speed !

[CloudDancer]

Hiya i-fly-low !

Welcum to the BEST darn gathering of aviation peeps an' Cub knowledge on the innernet!

While F.E. Potts "Guide to Bush Flying" is certainly a fine read, might I humbly suggest pages 138 thru 143 (from "It's DejaVu All Over Again") and pages 162 thru 166 (from "If You EVER Do THAT Again...) both in the CloudDancer's Alaskan Chronicles (original) book.

The information contained therein is based on the experiences of decades of "off-airport" flying dating
back decades in the arctic. It wuz taught to me by the very best.

So...Enquiring minds want to know! What type airsheen do you fly for work?!

CloudDancer

[Dave Calkins]

my work plane is an airtractor 802 with a -67

..DAve

[aktango58]

I see that the -12 has three times the seating you normally fly! Can you get used to the wing span?

Most techniques and life saving policy for crop dusting I will be fit right into off airport work... the big difference is that when playing, you have NO incentive to force it. If an approach looks tricky, it is. If it does not feel good, it is not.

Every approach after the second one should make you feel better about landing. If not, go somewhere else. The first and second approach you can learn how to fly it, where to turn, where to touch and such. After that, it is perfecting it.

I have spent 20 minutes working an area to find a place to land. Then I hiked in an hour and moved some sticks and logs before I actually got it landed. I really wanted to be there.

Cloudy has some good reading. Just remember, while his flying and literary skilz seem without question, I did notice that the ladies were well versed in avoidance when I saw him in Anchorage.

[CloudDancer]

Dave Caulkins sez -

Originally Posted by i-fly-low

my work plane is an airtractor 802 with a -67

Uuuuh...THANKS Dave! I needed that!

Just got offa' the Air Tractor website. I had to go look it up. That be sum SERIOUS tail-draggin' with MUSCLE i-fly-low!

I wuz a sim instructor fer a couple'a years. Dusters are JUS' like "bush pilots". If they've been at it fer a while (more than two or three years), I noticed that I didn't have to worry much about whether or not they could fly the airsheen. It was more a matter of learnin' 'em to follow checklists(s) an' procedures and comply with "the rules". Still have problem with that rulez part mahsef occasionally.

As fer' aktango58...pay him no nevermind. He'z jus' jealous of mah brown paper sack superhero disguise.

CloudDancer

[i-fly-low]

at802.JPGat 802-2.JPG.watermarked_58f18570b67114eab6ccdbcbaf8a894c[1].jpg.watermarked_f58a5cea034508bc15cb2e3198a940db[1].jpgwell it took awhile to get some time to sit down and do this ( i sprayed for over 70 hrs flight time last week) but here are a few shots of the new toy and the work toy... thanks for everyones input so far what about standard scott3200 in the sand do i need to go to a bushwheel tailwheel? right now the planes at a friends hanger getting a good once over mags were WAY off and carb was too should get it back when i slow down spraying and finally get to go have some fun as far as cruise speed goes i am thinking bout the professinal pilot inc C/S prop anyone have any experience with it?

[8GCBC]

My first impression: Nice!

[i-fly-low]

thanks i like it there are just a few thing that need to get fine tuned the only other thing is the seat im a big guy and that damn thing sucks! i want to put a seat like in the spray plane but i guess it would be one of those turn your head deals but they are nice to sit in....winter project

[JPachl]

Nice 12 ! You'll enjoy flying it.

[i-fly-low]

Well I have had a hell of an intro to my first plane!..... It's been at a shop for a month and a half now it would appear that I'm going to have to hang a new engine on it! It has a 337 from the early 70's for the 150 o-320 ( no model ) number given the IA says all I can do is have mine overhauled rather than pick up any straight mount of barnstormers if I'm going to have to do that I think I'm going to just go ahead and upgrade to a 0-360 for a12 who makes a good stc bang for the buck and ease of transition or maybe I'll just sell it if it's going to be a head ace any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks

[S2D]

i-f-l There are some strange cajun boys that a frequent this site once in a while. you need to catch up with them.
Other than flying one of those whining tanks, welcome !!!

The 0-320 no dash number is interchangeable with the 0-320-A2B. Better get your AI up to date.

[S2D]

Some shake their heads at 31's and a cruise prop but for me it works pretty well on my 18.

OC

A little known fact about long flat props is that they also act as a brake on landing. Don't believe me, go out and make a power off approach in your 180. as you get close to the runway , pull the prop control out to increase pitch and see what it does to your glide.

[i-fly-low]

Yeah it's got an a2b on it now and he says I HAVE to stay with that model

[mike mcs repair]

Yeah it's got an a2b on it now and he says I HAVE to stay with that model

don't crosswinds(short mount) and ?? whip? have 160 hp airframe/install STC's? (and 180hp... crosswinds and dans..)

http://www.crosswindsstol.com
http://www.dansaircraft.com

[MT12]

I have a mckensie STC for a 150 hp in my 12, it was done in the 70's as I recall and the stc lists only a plain 0-320. Same concern was that the STC was thus only good for the 0-320, A or A2B, but somewhere in my memory I think McKensie did some kind of amendment to their STC and added the word 'series' after 0-320 so that maybe with that STC update you have more options. I think it would be worth a phone call.

[i-fly-low]

well i think i have found an 0-320 but im going to have it checked out before i bite anyone know a good engine shop around denver co? was told about fire wall forward but a quick search showed alot of unhappy customers also found western skyways but was just looking for one alittle closer for the seller

[Paul Heinrich]

What happened to your engine? Was it at TBO?

[windy]

I just got the Crosswinds O-360 engine conversion on my PA-12 in March and have about 200 hrs on it so far. I had an O-320 with a borer 82x44 prop before. I love the performance of the O-360, gained about 15 mph (cruise at 105 mph instead of 90 mph) and burn less fuel (7 gph vs 8 gph). Now that I've tasted the 180 hp, there's no going back! I can't speak highly enough of Charly and the quality and support that I've gotten from Crosswinds. I like the 2-piece split cowling, too. The rest of the mosd on my PA-12 are about the same as yours. My 2-cents, but it's your wallet.

windy

[i-fly-low]

Paul... Engine has 1300 hrs on an overhaul from the 70's looking back in the books over the past few years the ia was chasing mag problems I have one low cylinder ( lower than the rest @ 64) and I'm tired of the bs I'd rather bite the bullet than keep trying to put a bandaid on it.... With that said I don't know if I'm making the right choice or an impulsive one but that's how it goes either ill get an o-320 and sell it or an 0-360 and keep it which ever comes first

[i-fly-low]

Ps don't get me wrong I like this plane since the day I picked it up but sometimes.... Well. Y'all know the rest

[chadronmike]

IFL...please check your pm's for a denver area shop that we folks in western nebraska have been very pleased with. Nice looking 12 you have there. I fly two of them and while they aren't an 18, an 18 isn't a 12 either. Best of luck.