putting ina grass strip in regional airport

[swoeric]

Yes we have grass smooth enough to land on some of us here know it but others do not..I have talked to the folks at the faa and its not really shot down but they suggested to possibly find as many cases as i can where something similar is performed.

So I am looking to see if there are any airports the bigger the better that also advertise having a grass strip so that i can replicate what they have done....once i have a list i will compile the airports to see if there are any similar obstructions etc. I believe KSWO and KCUH both do although the city has been goof recently at KSWO

[Speedo]

Elkhart, IN (KEKM) has two paved runways and a grass strip. Donaldson (in South Carolina) has at least one paved runway and a grass strip.

[sierra bravo]

Grass or unpaved? Merrill Field in ANC has paved and gravel strips. Same with Birchwood and Palmer. Kenai Municipal does, too. Lake Hood provides GA access to the big paved runways at Anch Intl but Lake Hood itself has a gravel strip and the lake.

Merrill, Kenai, and Hood are tower controlled. Palmer has an FSS. Birchwood is uncontrolled. All are public airports.

[SJ]

I would suggest downloading the FAA airport database to narrow the list to airports with certain characteristics. You can get most of their stuff in excel format now. I have not downloaded this year so am not 100% sure it is still out there, but it is basically the database that airnav, etc gets their initial info from.

sj

[bigrock]

Swoeric, are you talking about adding a new grass strip or just allowing planes to land next to the runway where it is smooth enough to land? If it is the latter i am looking for the same information of airports that allow this to convience our airport manager and county commissioner over the airport that it is an excepted practice. Neither are pilots and they don't have any understanding of off field landings. My Bushwheels are sitting in Pierce's loft waiting on me because i dont want to wear them out on the asphalt.

[twoplanekid]

Grimes Field (I74) Urbana, Ohio has a nice grass strip that I help preserve when the new runway (02/20) 4,400 was build. It is listed in the Ohio Airport directory but not in AirNav or Federal publications.
http://members.webs.com/MembersB/edi...ull#documents/

[cubdriver2]

Why not just mow an area next to the runway and let it be used " at your own risk "

Glenn

[flymore]

KCHK. Two turf runways listed. 18/36. 02/20. Chickasha, Oklahoma. Both maintained.

[swoeric]

Yes im looking for any means that i can legally advertise that we have a grass strip...we dont mind maintaining it and making it nice but would like to be able to advertise...right now i use between the taxi ways and so do a few others...if nothing can be done official...we will just have to let it be known that we have the smoothest grass in NE oklahoma next to the runway


Bigrock part of that is my question..If it were up to me id say unmarked 3000ft grass parallel to runway 18/360 west side....if your a pilot using grass i dont think we need much fancier or more complicated than that....if the FAA folks promise not to have issues i would go that way...if it has to be recorded and official before i can advertise...well then id like to know the hoops i might jump

[Alaskajim]

Swoeric

Good luck to you on that one. i don't want to sound pessimistic, I wish you all the luck in constructing an official turf runway, but getting the FAA and airport owner to fund a real, genuine turf runway for a couple of supercubs is not going to be easy. First you have to get the runway on what they call the 'ALP', the Airport Layout Plan. You'll have to work with the City and State with that, then you might have a chance.

[Big Ben]

Northern California - Columbia Airport KO22 - 4673' x 75' asphalt and 2607' x 50' grass. Sort of a cross or "V". They also have a great campground next to the grass! They get alot of flyers coming in because of the grass. I was thinking of the same for our airport. Good luck! Ben

[Bugs66]

Felts Field, KSFF has a sod runway between parallel runways. Ours is immediately adjacent 21L. It gets lots of use also. Because we are towered, have to ask for "sod" and they will usually grant "sod your own risk".

KSFF.jpg

[SJ]

Ok, not that I should even be playing with this kind of thing I'm so dang busy but, I did download the data and will do some correlation between airports with both grass and paved runways and a lot of operations or towers. Might not get it done until tomorrow evening, but massaging data is my one and only forte.

sj

[Anne]

KARB, Ann Arbor Municipal (Michigan), 6-24 paved, 12-30 grass. Part-time tower, 2 FBOs, flight schools, helicopters, U of M Survival Flight facilities, and an annual picnic.

Anne.

[DarrenLucke]

Garrison, ND - D05 cross-runway is grass -

[willyb]

KLHV,Lockhaven,PA has a grass runway parallel to the paved.

Bill

[SteveE]

Eric, you are right about SWO. I landed on the grass last spring and was told to hold my position. They then asked me if the wind blew me over there, I said "uhhh, ya". But they dont let you do it anymore.

[tempdoug]

Wheres MTV, his strip in Crookston, Minn has a grass going accross the main runway.

[aktango58]

"No wind tower, I fly like this all the time!"

WhiteHorse YT

FAI Fairbanks international

Gal Galena Alaska

Arlington WA

[bob turner]

Bartlesville? Some years ago I made it a project to land on grass wherever I could. I made it from just west of the Mississippi all the way to the east coast.

Now it is impossible. We are going down to one runway operation in September, for two months. So I measured, studied, and submitted a plan for a 2000' grass strip 150 feet north of the closed runway, to be used by taildraggers. All they would have to do is put up some orange cones or spread some lime markers - it is already flat, hard, and mowed. They let helicopters use it, but apparently Cubs would kill the fairy shrimp.

It was well studied and properly proposed. It was turned down verbally by the airports management, Caltrans, the FAA, and maybe the coastal commission. Nobody had the guts to evaluate it in writing, although the airports director did write us and say they could not afford a biologist.

I don't care - waiting in line for departure I am used to - I have spent hours doing that at JFK and LGA. The happy part is, there is no real runup area, so once in line I will have my sequence. Too bad for the jets, since they too will have to wait. It would have been so easy to get us out of their way on a temporary basis.

[Amy]

One thing to possibly consider is a special use area. It's not the same as having a listed runway but it might be easier to get approved and you can spread the news by word of mouth fairly effectively. Hartford, WI (KHXF) has an area like this parallel to and north of the paved runway.

You aren't going to get anything parallel approved without a significant amount of work and $. Lock Haven is a unique and wonderful setup, but I doubt it meets current regulations for runway separation. There are ways around that depending upon the sources of funding you have but if you are a public-use, public-owned airport you will have more hoops to jump through.

Good luck!

--Amy

[nesincg]

Some that I've been to, all towered:
HFD - Hartford, CT has a parallel grass runway.
DWH in Houston has a water runway parallel to the main runways.
CMA in California has a adjacent ultralight runway but I'm not sure if it is controlled. Not sure how that works.

[litegraycub]

Check out KBZN, Bozeman Montana. Nice grass runway next topaved runway. Five major airlines operate here, with helicopter flight school, fiixed wing flight school, two FBO,s and Biz Jets, spray planes and gliders.

[WindOnHisNose]

I just learned of plans to pave the grass airstrip 17-35 at KPKD, Park Rapids, MN, where I perform flight physicals. I am sick about this, and am interested in what can be done to preserve a grass strip. Thanks for starting this thread!

Randy

[SJ]

Ok, so I did a little tally on the runway database and found the following info. These are the FAA's codes. G means "Good", P "Poor", F "Fair" Count is the number of runways of that type in the US and PR. Since we are talking turf, I assume all "turf" and "grass" will be what you want to correlated with concrete. That is next....

SURFACE	COUNT
TURF	7294
ASPH-G	3243
CONC	3177
ASPH	1910
TURF-G	1242
ASPH-F	948
CONC-G	774
WATER	668
TURF-F	631
DIRT	447
ASPH-E	298
GRVL	239
ASPH-P	223
GRAVEL	190
TURF-P	147
MATS	136
ASPH-CONC	121
ASPH-CONC-G	119
GRVL-G	113
CONC-F	103
CONC-E	97
TURF-DIRT	78
ASPH-TURF	75
TURF-GRVL	74
GRAVEL-G	68
DIRT-F	61
WOOD	59
WATER-E	56
PEM	55
ROOF-TOP	50
CONC-TURF	49
GRVL-F	48
ASPH-CONC-F	47
DIRT-G	44
TURF-GRVL-F	38
DIRT-P	33
GRVL-DIRT	33
TURF-DIRT-F	28
ASPH-GRVL	26
GRVL-P	22
TURF-GRVL-G	22
ASPH-TURF-G	21
GRVL-DIRT-P	20
GRVL-TRTD	19
ASPH-CONC-E	17
GRAVEL-F	17
TURF-DIRT-P	17
ASPH-DIRT	16
ASPH-TURF-F	16
	15
CONC-P	15
GRAVEL-P	15
GRVL-DIRT-F	15
TURF-GRVL-P	15
TRTD-DIRT	14
TURF-E	14
MATS-G	13
TURF-DIRT-G	13
ASPH-L	12
TRTD	12
ALUMINUM	11
ASPH-TRTD-G	10
CONC-GRVL	10
GRVL-TURF	10
ROOFTOP	10
DIRT-TRTD	9
GRVL-DIRT-G	9
PSP	9
WATER-G	9
ASPH-CONC-P	7
ASPH-TRTD	6
DIRT-TURF	6
ROOF-TOP-G	6
ASPH-GRVL-F	5
ASPH-TURF-P	5
DECK	5
DIRT-GRVL	5
CALICHE	4
CONC-TURF-G	4
TURF-SAND-F	4
ASPH-DIRT-G	3
ASPH-GRVL-P	3
ASPH-TRTD-F	3
ASPH-TRTD-P	3
CONC-GRVL-G	3
CONC-TRTD-G	3
DIRT-GRVL-F	3
DIRT-TURF-G	3
GRASS	3
TREATED	3
ALUM	2
ASPH-DIRT-F	2
ASPH-DIRT-P	2
BRICK	2
GRVL-E	2
GRVL-TRTD-F	2
GRVL-TRTD-P	2
GRVL-TURF-F	2
GRVL-TURF-G	2
GRVL-TURF-P	2
METAL	2
STEEL	2
TRTD-DIRT-P	2
TURF-L	2
ALUM-DECK	1
ASPH-CONC-L	1
ASPH-GRVL-G	1
ASPH-TURF-E	1
ASPH/GRVL-F	1
CLOSED	1
CONC-GRVL-F	1
CONC-L	1
CONC-TRTD	1
CONC-TURF-F	1
CORAL	1
CORAL-F	1
DIRT-GRVL-G	1
DIRT-GRVL-P	1
DIRT-TURF-F	1
GRASS-F	1
GRAVEL-E	1
GRE	1
MATS-E	1
OIL&CHIP-T-G	1
PEM-E	1
PFC	1
ROOFTOP-G	1
SAND	1
SAND-F	1
SOD	1
STEEL-CONC	1
TREATED-F	1
TREATED-P	1
TRTD-DIRT-F	1
TURF-TRTD-G	1
WOOD-G	1
nstd	1

[SteveE]

SJ,,, where is that good wood runway ,, I want to go land there...

[SJ]

Ok folks, here is the spreadsheet of airports that have concrete or asphalt and turf runways, sorted in descending number of total operations.

Let me know if you have questions.

sj

[Patrol Guy]

I landed at Valperizo, IN next to the runway and was B'd out big time by the lady at the counter. I always stopped there, but swore to myself, never again. But now that is a stop on the J-3 tour to OSH, so I am going to do it again.

[Patrol Guy]

Thanks Steve. Now that you are "in the game," you need to make an ap that is attached to flight planning programs and will pop up the grass strips that fall under particular flight paths?? Also showing fuel sales. I will pay $1.99 for that.

[Bugs66]

Ok folks, here is the spreadsheet of airports that have concrete or asphalt and turf runways, sorted in descending number of total operations.

Let me know if you have questions.

sj

Funny that Felts Field Spokane is not in there. We have sod. Must not be "official".

[SJ]

Christian,

The data shows Concrete, Asphalt, and Water as the runway types at KSFF...

sj

[OLDCROWE]

I landed at Valperizo, IN next to the runway and was B'd out big time by the lady at the counter. I always stopped there, but swore to myself, never again. But now that is a stop on the J-3 tour to OSH, so I am going to do it again.

Proper answer is "you're seeing things, must be the heat, I landed right where I aimed."

Actually, I've been growled at once (pretty good chewing actually) for using the grass (and it was mowed really nice) but never with 31's on. Once after landing I had a operator tell me (after I had fueled) there's ditches and uneven terrain out there. I responded that I looked it over in advance and didn't see any issues but if thats really the case perhaps there should be a NOTAM issued for not following the FAA's standards for adjacent runway obstructions. He smiled and said he'd done his part and I told him what 31's cost and what pavement does to them and now he keeps that section of grass close mowed and I buy lots of fuel from him.

[SC3CM]

What would be really helpful is a list of places where grass is available, but NOT published officially. If people send me the info I'll put it together and update a spreadsheet and post as often as is reasonable. I'll start a new post if that makes sense.

There would need to be a notes field used to give details.

I'll put a sample together tonight of ones I know of, and post it and see where it goes.



Rene

[Seaworthy]

KPYM has an unpublished grass parallel to 15-33 but you have to know where it begins or ends otherwise you'll get in hot water. Rene

Was at Mansfield a few days ago---why is the grass runway X'd out?

[SC3CM]

Tom,
Grass rwy at 1B9 is being moved over a bit due to the taxiway. The transition over the pavement in the new spot would have destroyed just about anything do it's being re-graded. Should be open soon. As for the other x's and fence posts placed in the grass adjacent to the pavement, your guess is as good as mine as to why they felt the need to put those in

I'll start another post for non-published grass so this one can go back to what it was intended for.


Rene

[bigrock]

Steve would it be a problem to sort the spreadsheet of turf airports by state?

[SJ]

Nope, very easy to do in Excel. Just go to Data / Sort and tell it how you want to sort it. You can also use Google Docs to open and edit spreadsheets (free) or Open Office (also free).

sj

[slackass]

SJ,,, where is that good wood runway ,, I want to go land there...

Touched down on a deck once although it was with a chopper!

[swoeric]

yep ran into the guys at swo my last call was something about the difference in those that have control of airplanes and controllers making wishes...i left shortly after the next time i asked for it they said "unable" i demand that i demonstrate something beyond their abilities.....they were not so pumped although when i come in or leave i typically get any direction i choose even if its down wind.......t


thank you so much for responding to this...maybe a special use area is also the answer...i found out i have to get with the obstructions folks in faa to get it rolling