Car seat or Moms lap?

[Tyrone8]

Want to take my wife and one year old daughter flying in my Pa-12. Question is I only have one seat belt in the back so do I put the car seat in and belt my wife in with it or should my little girl just sit on my wife's lap?

[aktango58]

mount the car seat behind in the baggage maybe.

Be cautions first of all.

or use the car seat and strap it down without using the seat belt so it holds, and use the belt for your wife.

[kiwi 180]

- try mom straps in with seat belt, and baby strapped to mum with a baby harness-kind of like a back pack but holds them in front.worked for us and seems safe.

[Skywagon]

Seems safe?? You wouldn't strap a baby to the front of mom in a car...why do it in an airplane? If you crash, the baby probably won't survive in anything other than a car seat.

[n40ff]

I think I might leave original single belt and install additional belt for car seat using one original side attach point and an additional new attach point in center somewhere? I believe it's legal with mechanic sign-off on vintage aircraft. That said, don't know iuf there is good place for center attach point in the PA12. I know there wasn't in my PA16....?

Lap? NO WAY IMO

[Rick Papp]

Be sure to use ear protection for the baby this is very important!!

[Steve Pierce]

I'm reckless, I flew around with Lee in my lap in the front seat of the Super Cub. What about putting you daughter and wife side by side in the back seat. Most of the time you are not going to get run into by any idiots in an airplane.

[Grant]

I'm reckless, I flew around with Lee in my lap in the front seat of the Super Cub. What about putting you daughter and wife side by side in the back seat. Most of the time you are not going to get run into by any idiots in an airplane.

I would do it like Steve says. I tried to put my daughter in her car seat in the back and it limited my elevator travel. The stick hit the hard plastic base and it was not going any further. I would have been able to take off just fine but would have lost it on landing. Just keep that in mind....

Flight Controls Free & Correct?

[Longwinglover]

It seems that wives like to sit side by side with us and your baby needs to be in a car seat. Put the baby in the car seat in the front seat and you and your wife together in the two place rear seat. Have fun !!

John Scott

[sierra bravo]

Tyrone,

Since your family includes two rear passengers why not help your mechanic add appropriate shoulder restraints for your needs? One lap belt wouldn't bother me if I had good shoulder restraints. That's what'll keep mom and kiddo in their seats. My own -12 has one rear lap belt and one Y harness because I never intended it as a 3 passenger plane. My wife and dog ride back seat and the dog is restrained using a chest harness tied off to a cargo ring while wifey uses the lap and shoulder belts. Make your plane fit your needs!

[12 Geezer]

Not sure what's best, but when my kids were little they belted into my 12 beside Mom, one on each side. (Yeah, they were still pretty young to be able to do that!) When REALLY little, she'd hold them. Once up in the air, the oldest loved to climb forward, sit on my lap and work the stick. And make his Mom airsick! Funny, he's 31 now, and still remembers that. Little kids can be such a delight!

[akavidflyer]

I had my kids strapped into the seat beside the ex many times. If I doinked it up bad enough I am sure none of us would have walked away.... Make sure you put your helmet on each time you get out of bed so you dont slip and hit your head, dont cross the street without a cop holding the traffic up, you may get run over, and for damn sure dont drive a car on the roads, you could get into and accident...

[ndill]

Maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic, but isn't a wonder that those of us above the age of 40 managed to survive before the Nanny State came along with child safety seats.

[Steve's Aircraft (Brian)]

My brother and I used to sit side by side in the baggage compartment of the Super Cub. When we were both to big to fit back there dad bought a Tri-Pacer. That Pacer is now a 22/20 conversion with a 0-360 on the front. Bought it in 82'.

Brian.

[skywagon8a]

Saw a Mooney taxi in one day. Four adults climbed out of the cabin. Then the pilot opened the baggage door and four children jumped out. Do you suppose that they were strapped in?

[Cub junkie]

I can see many different opinions on this, a one year old child is small enough to be on mom's lap with a harness around her/him attached to mom with mom belted in with a seatbelt/shoulder harness. That's an opinion. I'm one of those old guy's whose dad would be viewed as careless by the modren day do gooders. I rode in our champ and PA12 with my brother in the back seat with the single belt when we were little guys. Before I was born he carelessly sat my brother on his lap in a TBM fire bomber and rode him around.

[OnTop]

Hi Tyrone,

I grew up in the backset of my parents bonanza - three across all sharing a seatbelt, and we all survived - granted we didn't crash either.

We've flown with our kids since they were little in several different airplanes which require different set-ups. These days our kids, now 11 &12 barely fit next to me in the backseat of our 12, and yes we share one seatbelt.

Clearly this is not ideal, and one year olds are more challenging to fly with. My advice would be to create two seatbelt systems as the carseat will need to either be attached to the frame or use a seatbelt like cars.

In our experience finding narrow width carseats are hard to find but worth it for when she falls asleep (and you want her to be able to see out to enjoy the flight). Look for a soft shelled booster-type carseat with a back and headrest, this will be your best bet for the space.

Good luck!
Heather

[Dan Gervae]

Car seats may not provide the extra safety you are looking for anyways...since they are designed for car use. Strap her next to mom and go have fun. Be careful and be safe.

[kiwi 180]

i guess "safe" is always going to be a relative term and yep if you can strap in a car seat its probably the way to go, but my thinking with a 12 m old that starts screaming its head off in unexpected turbulence/sore ears etc and you cant just pull over like in a car, maybe being right close to mom is going to be the easiest to deal with. safest place is probably back at home. sometimes i wonder how we all survived!

[cubdriver2]

Can you say cargo pod, put the little boogers in the pod with a remote CO tester and mom and dad can enjoy the trip.

Glenn

[SC3CM]

As Heather said we had our kids in the plane right from the beginning. They rarely stayed awake for takeoff. Even significant turbulence now barely gets their attention.

In the 12, you should be able to get a front facing carseat (with irs own restraint) on the left side and strap the base to the frame behind the seat by sliding the base of the rear seat out a bit to get a ratchet type cargo strap around the frame and around the base of the carseat. Tighten that to hold the carseat Then just slip the seat belt through the base for your wife but not worry about it holding the seat too (it won't do both). It also won't fit over the carseat and your wife. It's going to be a squeeze but should work. You may have to take the rear stick out too.

The hardest thing for us was to find narrow carseats but we eventually did. That was a long time ago so maybe there are more options now. My thought wails be to get the kid in the plane ASAP and fly as often as you can with it. Too many people get left on the ground.


Rene

[n40ff]

Good ideas all. Of coarse people and kids do die and/or injured every day in cars and airplanes. In a severe crash probably all die whatever you do. But how about a relative minor crash/incident? I sure would hate to see two adults walk away leaving a dead baby. Many if not most safety/restraint systems are not designed for severe crash. Take motorcycle helment for example. (I ride super bikes) Skid lid is for exactly that, falling off bike from 5' up or sliding along w/o hitting anything. Run into Kenworth @ 150 and you are like a bug on the windshield of a SC.

I know of an infant who was riding on moms lap when plane hit very small wave on lee side of eastern mountains. Baby hit tube in ceiling and then floor. Don't know which broke neck but baby is now probably 50+ years old still in wheel chair if still alive. (I heard this story from a GADO safety guy at a flying club safety meeting many years ago)

Two weeks ago I was sitting at home when several emergency vehicles went by in 10 min. time. Van went off road a couple miles north. Two adults killed and several injured. The two adults were transported to local hospitals one by helo as well as other adults and children. Van was overloaded with only two front seats, others unrestrained. Everyone was transported and firemen were cleaning up when they found remains of additional 9 year old that had been missed who was shoved up under the dash. Probably no deaths if people had been restrained?

FWIW

Jack

[crazyivan]

Crash survivability focuses on three main factors. Maintaining a survivability envelope which is usually done by engineering the structure to crumble around the passengers, not into them. Next is proper energy dissipation in the form of crumble zones, stroking seats, air bags, seat cushions. There isn't much you can do to enhance these first two, especially on older airplanes.

The third is passenger restraint. Car seats do a great job at restraining infants and toddlers with hip and shoulder harnesses, and lateral support. They are also designed to properly absorb energy instead of transferring it to the child. Not to be dramatic, but flying in a plane with my kid unrestrained horrifies me. Not only would an otherwise survivable crash kill him, but a body flailing around the cabin would kill others as well.

All the car seats I've seen come with a strap, but I don't think that strap is meant as a primary means of anchoring. They are made to be used with anchored with seatbelts. You'd have to check the owner's manual to see what it says. Recommendation, everybody gets a seat belt and a shoulder harness. Retrofitting shoulder harnesses is usually not that difficult.

[aktango58]

just a reminder: check your insurance also. Most insurance policies have a number of seats insured, (pilot excluded). If the insurance is for two, and you have three... wife and two kids, your insurance is void.

That means if you are taxiing and spit a rock into another aircraft and brake a windshield, your insurance gets to say: sorry.

Just a thought.

[Jake]

We used this lap harness on moms lap when my kids were 2.
http://www.amazon.com/Infant-Flight-.../dp/B000058DQB

I don't think it would help much in an accident, but helped keep the kids from bouncing around the cabin in turbulence

[sierra bravo]

Taken from an NTSB accident summary, I thought this was very interesting and somewhat applicable for the topic and other recurring PA-12 rear seat belt concerns.

Title 14 CFR Part 91.107 states, in part: “each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.” The FAA issued an interpretation to this rule that allows the shared use of a single restraint under certain conditions for Part 91 operations. (Refer to FAA Legal Interpretation 1990-14 in the public docket.)
On August 11, 2010, as the result of a separate accident, the NTSB issued Safety Recommendation A-10-121 (refer to the public docket), which asked the FAA to “amend 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 to require separate seats and restraints for every occupant.” This recommendation was issued as a result of the NTSB’s concern that, if the FAA were to continue allowing multiple occupants aboard airplanes operating under Part 91 to share a single seat position and a single restraint system, then those occupants would not benefit from the improved protection provided by the crashworthiness requirements of Part 23.

On June 23, 2011, the FAA published its Clarification of Prior Interpretations of the Seat Belt and Seating Requirements for General Aviation Flights. The FAA’s proposal did not include a provision to prohibit the shared use of a seat and restraint system, which is currently allowed under Part 91. Instead, the proposal relies on the “good judgment of the pilot” to determine the proper method of restraint for children during operations conducted under Part 91.

[Bill Ingerson]

I remember as kids we use to ride in the back of pickup trucks, great times back then.

[Superchub]

Do as the FAA requires for the BIG Birds. Less than 2, in Mom's Arm's. Over 2 Must have a seat! I always had my wife hold the Kids till they were 2 then I used the car seat. Now in the back of the Chub Wife and kid share seat belt and shoulder harness.

Brandon

[sierra bravo]

People holding small children on their laps are an interesting topic. You see it all the time in airliners but the accident stats are incredibly low. Cars? Since it's illegal you don't see many unrestrained small children. Makes sense considering the accident rate and the survivability improvement when restraints are used. Small airplanes? You decide.

http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flyin...vsdriving.html

[sierra bravo]

Taken from an NTSB accident summary, I thought this was very interesting and somewhat applicable for the topic and other recurring PA-12 rear seat belt concerns.

Re: the post above where I quoted an NTSB summary, here's the FAA's seat belt requirement clarifications document. It appears the FAA's ruling was mostly based on administrative issues, not from defense of the practice. No matter, the ruling is clear. https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...ts-for-general

[HATIN11R]

T....so how did this pan out? Did y'all go up? If not,I encourage you to reconsider.All the points made for/against come down to this: It simply isn't worth the risk. Take care.