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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #881

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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  4. #884

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    With the ongoing search and investigation of Monday the 13th accident in Ketchikan AK, this LA times article from 2015 that was written about the late Randy Sullivan, the Beaver pilot who lost his life.

    https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-c1-alaska-float-pilot-20150102-story.html

    For me, as a FAAST Team Rep who hosts two VMC and IMC programs a month with a desire and goal of promoting pilot safety, the closing quote from Randy S. whom with
    "Logging over 11,000 hours of flight with a perfect safety record", touches me.

    "The trick is how you handle the scary moments," he said. "Can you buckle down and figure things out?"

    It looks like he did not have a chance this time.


  5. #885
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    There’s already rumours and finger pointing going on, but I hope there is enough hard data recovered to pinpoint the real cause. With only witnesses on one aircraft, getting unbiased facts may not be easy.


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  6. #886

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    I fully expect they will point their fingers at the man who can not defend himself. Lets see, that man is well respected with ZERO marks on his safety record in over 11,000 hrs of flying.
    And the finger pointer is a company with multiple fatal crashes that are getting more frequent in recent years. Humm.

    Being that the aft fuselage on the Beaver was cut/broken apart in mid air, lets see what the investigation comes up with. Since recovery of the planes has started today I expect preliminary information will be available soon. There may also be data in some instrumentation that may tell a bit more of the story.

    Oh and as an edit I have not seen any new news today other than relating to recovery work. So my comments above might be right, or might be wrong, we will know soon.
    Last edited by CharlieN; 05-15-2019 at 01:59 PM.
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  7. #887
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    https://www.kcra.com/article/2-plane...-says/27484294

    This just happened here a few hours ago.
    -- not the link I wanted, I'll try to get it.
    Two Ag-Cats, I'm told C models, went nearly head-on.

    https://www.kcra.com/article/2-plane...-says/27484294

    --Sorry if the ads came through
    Last edited by PerryB; 05-15-2019 at 07:35 PM.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  8. #888
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    the FAA is going to be less than impressed, a week after the other crash for this company...



    https://www.ktva.com/story/40506096/ntsb-plane-overturned-in-waters-near-metlakatla

  9. #889

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    The FAA probably won't have time to put them out of business. Their insurance company will more than likely pull the plug first. Their rates will go up to where it will be impossible to operate. I've seen it before.

  10. #890
    sharp's Avatar
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    It's been a rough couple years. We will soon run out of Beavers.
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  11. #891

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    On Monday I had been looking around online to see if any pictures or snippets had leaked out of the previous crash, spent time chasing down the multiple owners associated to Taquan or Venture Travel and the plane's owner in Nevada, so on. I come up with a statement that Taquan was returning to flying, Wow a whole day and more fatalities.

  12. #892
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    News reports several witnesses and quick responders to the Metlakatla tragedy so that may help investigators.

    Edit: Hopefully the freight aboard was well secured and didn't create an exit problem.

    Gary

    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-21-2019 at 02:31 PM.

  13. #893
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This looks like there is not a lot of damage. Do you suppose that it was just a case of landing too fast and stubbing the bows flipping it forward?

    N1PA
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  14. #894
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    This looks like there is not a lot of damage. Do you suppose that it was just a case of landing too fast and stubbing the bows flipping it forward?

    Lift strutAD/failure?????


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  15. #895
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    On ... I come up with a statement that Taquan was returning to flying, Wow a whole day and more fatalities.[/FONT]
    They never really stopped flying normal stuff. Just the princess Cruises passengers



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  16. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Lift strutAD/failure?????
    Do you think so mike? It doesn't looked like it is banged up enough for a wing to have folded.
    N1PA

  17. #897
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Do you think so mike? It doesn't looked like it is banged up enough for a wing to have folded.
    New info. They flipped like you thought. Full of freight also.

    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...ash-in-a-week/

    https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Ne...510233451.html

    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/anch...-see-patients/


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  18. #898
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    The pilot of the recent flipped Taquan Beaver must not have been in Alaska very long.

    April to Nov 2018 Skydive Philadelphia.
    Nov 2016 to Nov 2017 Cargill Aeronautical Academy and Service Center
    Aug to Oct 2016 Skydive Finger Lakes
    June 2014 earned his commercial pilots license.
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  19. #899
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    There's that old Youtube of one in a movie that caught the nose of one float then the other. Hopefully the witnesses can offer more.

    Gary

  20. #900
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    There's that old Youtube of one in a movie that caught the nose of one float then the other. Hopefully the witnesses can offer more.

    Gary
    NTSB says witnesses say caught nose of right float and cartwheeled


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  21. #901
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    NTSB says witnesses say caught nose of right float and cartwheeled


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    https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/NT...510241491.html

  22. #902
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wasn't going to until more was mentioned but this is what can happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzPSjBPAlMQ

    Play it at 0.5 speed (a Youtube option under Settings; first symbol going right across screen). Left float stubbed first then after gyration left wing broke up while plane was going sideways before nosing down and flipping. The prop probably helped pull it under.

    It may be similar to the USF&W's Kodiak Quest that grabbed a float and cartwheeled in Lake Hood (https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/arti...sh/2012/10/01/). Lots of deep hard chine keel up front that can pull sideways if landed slightly nose down and off track. Flaps like de Havilland's can drop a nose when effective. Just an opinion from my brief time in a Beaver.

    Then there's this on the ocean with any following swell or crosswind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(sailing)

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-22-2019 at 01:41 AM.
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  23. #903
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    The pilot of the recent flipped Taquan Beaver must not have been in Alaska very long.

    April to Nov 2018 Skydive Philadelphia.
    Nov 2016 to Nov 2017 Cargill Aeronautical Academy and Service Center
    Aug to Oct 2016 Skydive Finger Lakes
    June 2014 earned his commercial pilots license.
    Hmmm? A lot of hard climbing followed by high speed diving with a quick landing for the next load. That happened here last year with the pilot running off the end of the runway flipping the 182 on it's back. Scratch one 182. (The pilot blamed his radio at this small NORDO airport.) This doesn't sound like the type of experience required of a Beaver pilot flying heavy loads.
    N1PA

  24. #904
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    DHC-2 and DHC-3 Ketchikan preliminary: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...relim&IType=MA

    Also here. They can be offline at times: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...c-5037ecb02b2b

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 05-22-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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  25. #905

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    Is it just my computer but it is downloading that ASHX file not opening it in the browser. Looks like it is intended to be a PDF.

  26. #906

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  27. #907

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  28. #908
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    and another fatal yesterday... a picture is worth a 1000 words......

    UPDATE: Victim was passenger in Prince William Sound plane crash

  29. #909
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    GUMP

    Gary

  30. #910
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    After all tale offs say OUT LOUD! : "Positive Rate Gear up"
    Before landing: "This is a WATER landing GEAR UP"
    OR "This is a LAND landing GEAR DOWN"

    THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THESE ACCIDENTS!

    It will not surprise me to learn that this airplane had one of those electronic low altitude gear warning announcing systems installed.
    N1PA
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  31. #911
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    Well, it’s only a matter of time before the insurance industry decides that amphians are uninsurable. And, it’s pretty obvious that many of the pilots flying these things are singularly unqualified to assume the responsibility of flying an amphibious airplane.

    You can verbalize gear position, and that’s a good idea, but unfortunately, we’ve seen too many cases where that was done, but the intended associated ACTION was not carried out.

    Verbalization is a very good plan, but I maintain that mounting mirrors that permit VISUALIZING the actual gear position, then developing the discipline to do so prior to every landing is a better plan than a “bitching Betty” which is easily ignored and/or suppressed, or a laser that tells you what you’re over ON APPROACH, and not necessarily what you’re about to land on. Those “gadgets” are well intended, but don’t seem to be doing the job.

    Oh, and then there’s the matter of training. I’m amazed the insurance industry hasn’t implemented a “jet-like” requirement for amphib already.

    Unfortunately, the gent flying this airplane is going to carry a terrible burden the rest of his days.

    Terrible deal, all around.

    MTV

  32. #912

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    Sometimes really smart, capable human beings make mistakes. The others pontificate on the internet.

    Condolences to all those close to the man lost.

  33. #913

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Well, it’s only a matter of time before the insurance industry decides that amphibians are uninsurable.

    Unfortunately, the gent flying this airplane is going to carry a terrible burden the rest of his days.

    Terrible deal, all around.

    MTV
    In many ways I agree with all you say, your full post, but I watch to the best we can all events that happen considering general aviation accidents and incidents.

    I see a considerably higher percentage of Beech Bonanza and Baron landing gear retractions during roll out than I see failures to select the proper gear position on amphibious aircraft.

    On the Beechcraft they have added a squat switch to one gear leg, but that has not stopped the inadvertent problem. With the gear and flap handles installed such that a simple dyslexic moment allows setting the hull on it's belly when the intention was to simply stow the flaps.

    Then consider the true number of wrong gear position landings in land planes.

    I consider all seaplane operations to take more conscious effort to properly conduct than just flying a common performance aircraft, yet it is the more common aircraft that has more insurable events.

    Might just be me but I do not see amphibian aircraft operations at undue risk as far as rule makers or insurance are concerned.
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  34. #914
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Sometimes really smart, capable human beings make mistakes. The others pontificate on the internet.

    Condolences to all those close to the man lost.
    I have been preaching about this issue for decades prior to the internet being invented. Pontificating on the internet is just a continuation of an age old pilot inattention issue.
    N1PA
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  35. #915

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    Hull insurance on an amphib is at least double or more from wheel gear based on the last quote I got just for lower 48.
    And if one adds in Alaska location to the equation not sure what it would be, other than really expensive just to have amphibs.
    This one is obvious on the cause. Sad deal as MTV said, pilot will live with this mistake forever.
    John
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  36. #916

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    Maybe the take away from this accident and the Otter-Beaver mid air last week should revolve around why two rear seat occupants died from apparently not being able to egress the airplanes while upside down in the water when other occupants did successfully egress. There are a couple of other accidents I can think of off the top of my head that shared that same result.
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  37. #917

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    Stewart,
    Hard to know why the rear seat occupants cannot get out when cockpit occupants do. But when one lands on the water with amphib wheels down it is an immediate stop and violent flip upside down. The rear of the aircraft may get a more violent flip being back further than center of airplane? If seatbelt not really tight, who knows what the effect is on the body with the violent actions of quick stop and instant inversion. Plus being underwater and upside down in seconds.
    Tough ride to be in.
    John
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  38. #918

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    In these recent accidents with loss of life and injury there are other aspects to consider.

    In the mid air, the Beaver was cut apart by the propeller from the Otter. The cabin of the aircraft came down in multiple sections. The poor souls had no chance.

    In the Otter, with those injuries were they all wearing their restraints? I doubt it. Granted that plane had pretty high deceleration as it broke free of it's floats, but that deceleration is spread over time which in some ways reduces injury to the passengers.

    A week later the Beaver tripped on it's own float. This plane was carrying a load of freight as well as a passenger. How well retained was that freight? Jumping to conclusion I expect that freight came forward into the seating area. We should wait for the truth about that.

    And in the most recent with the 185, that was not a high energy deceleration. Granted we do not know what level of agility the soul who passed had, but again, was he properly restrained? One does not need much of an injury along with the disorientation of the tumble to reduce one's chances to get out.

    It is very sad to see injury and death but many times there are complexities that cause most of the personal loss beyond just being in a crash.

    Sorry if this post was too graphic but there are reasons beyond the simple view why there is more injury or loss of life when something goes wrong.

  39. #919
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    ….One does not need much of an injury along with the disorientation of the tumble to reduce one's chances to get out...... there are reasons beyond the simple view why there is more injury or loss of life when something goes wrong.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	stearman crash.jpg 
Views:	49 
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ID:	43012

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/04/boeing-a75n1pt-17-stearman-n68825.html

    I'll testify to the comment about getting out after an injury.
    I was the passenger in this Stearman crash, about 3-1/2 weeks ago.
    Cruising along at 1200', about 4 or 5 miles from the departure airport,
    when oil starting spewing out and streaming back from the engine.
    Total failure a minute or so after that.
    Turns out the crankshaft broke right where it goes into the master rod.
    No where good to land, the pilot (my buddy) was trying for the only unobstructed section of beach in sight.
    He made a hard turn to line up to land and we dipped a wingtip in the water,
    which hooked the airplane around and stobbed us into the beach.
    From flying speed to a sudden stop in about 5 feet.

    We both suffered minor injuries, he was able to hop out right away.
    I wasn't- besides the center section coming down on top of me, I took a helluva lick to the ribs from the stick (I think)
    and wasn't up to doing too much except sit there and hurt.
    Turns out all I really got was bruised ribs & some torn between-the-ribs cartilage and a broken hand.
    But if we'd have caught fire (plenty of fuel pouring out) or went upside in the water,
    I doubt I could have gotten out.

    If we'd been maybe 20 feet higher in that turn, it probably woulda been fine--
    roll the wings level, touch down, and roll out.

    But sometimes it works out-- sometimes it doesn't.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  40. #920

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    I bet you still feel that one. Damn,

    There recently was another Bipe, I think down FLA way where the wing came down. If I recall they cut through the side to get the front seater out.

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