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Thread: Oops, darn it...

  1. #601
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Another PA-12 maiden flight after rebuild accident.
    Sad deal. Will be interesting to see if it is controls hooked up backwards or engine problem or????? Thought maybe it was my old 12 that is close by but it's not.

  2. #602
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Sad deal. Will be interesting to see if it is controls hooked up backwards or engine problem or????? Thought maybe it was my old 12 that is close by but it's not.
    that was my first thought, elevator backwards, or trim.... both easy to do.... and Easy to check for before first flight... always worry about those 2....

  3. #603
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Years ago a Swift was wrecked here on it's first flight after being assembled. The ailerons were hooked up backwards. Fortunately it went into a sand pit upside down and the pilot only got a broken collar bone. He, a WW2 ace, was extremely lucky.
    N1PA

  4. #604

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    Wow, Florida pilots aren't too observant! And apparently a good example of why you should pitch the 121.5 ELTs. 4 souls. Peace to their survivors.

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/florida...ne-plane-crash
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-18-2017 at 10:44 AM.
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  5. #605
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Wow, Florida pilots aren't too observant!
    They were probably all from Alaska and used to seeing wrecked airplanes everywhere!


    Tragedy, Yes. From the extent of the damage, I don't think 12 ELTs could have saved anyone.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
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  6. #606
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  7. #607

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    Very sad , the complacency when rebuilding and then also preflight. How many people looked at this aircraft and elevator was still backwards.

  8. #608
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    What a crying shame. Sadly, this is a reminder that high speed taxi tests prior to first flight can be helpful.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
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  9. #609
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Wouldnt want to be the one that signed it off.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

  10. #610

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    HMMM I don't think a high speed taxi test would be relevant in my humble opinion. IF you don't hook it up right and check it for being right , IT AINT RIGHT. don't taxi don't fly don't use until repaired correctly. very easy to check , pull back on stick elevator goes up push forward elevator goes down. This has happened way to many times to people who don't know what they are doing, and get in to big of a hurry and then either they or someone else who did not do a thorough preflight dies. It is up to the PIC to make sure the aircraft is safe for flight.

  11. #611
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskflyer View Post
    HMMM I don't think a high speed taxi test would be relevant in my humble opinion. IF you don't hook it up right and check it for being right , IT AINT RIGHT. don't taxi don't fly don't use until repaired correctly. very easy to check , pull back on stick elevator goes up push forward elevator goes down. This has happened way to many times to people who don't know what they are doing, and get in to big of a hurry and then either they or someone else who did not do a thorough preflight dies. It is up to the PIC to make sure the aircraft is safe for flight.
    You're correct, of course, HOWEVER - - checking work by multiple entirely different means can reveal errors that have escaped us even though they *should* be obvious. I have always done high speed taxi testing of flight control correctness (among other things) before any flight that follows work on the flight controls.
    Gordon

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  12. #612
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    You're correct, of course, HOWEVER - - checking work by multiple entirely different means can reveal errors that have escaped us even though they *should* be obvious. I have always done high speed taxi testing of flight control correctness (among other things) before any flight that follows work on the flight controls.
    A proper control check will reveal any improper control connections. In a cub, look out the door at the tail to verify rudder and elevator correct, look out the windows at the ailerons to verify they're correct. A high speed taxi won't do anything this procedure won't do, and a high speed taxi MAY result in liftoff.

    And, a control check is NOT just for when the controls have been re-rigged.

    Terrible accidents these, and so easily prevented.

    MTV
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  13. #613
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I do a control check every time before I fly. I stir out the stick for free movement and then look over my shoulder at the elevator and ailerons to verify correct movement. The rudder is verified during taxi.

    I agree that high speed taxis are of little value.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
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  14. #614
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I wonder if A&P schools ever rig planes wrong for the students to discover? This is no mysterious event and we all either know or have heard of this happening. Maybe not being a pilot is a contributing factor for some that do the maintenance?

    Yes preflights by pilots have their place as well.

    Gary
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  15. #615
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    exactly! what I always worry about doing.... I always like to walk over & verify against a flying plane or 2...

    Further examination revealed that the elevator control cables were improperly rigged, such that they were attached to the incorrect (opposite) locations on the upper and lower elevator control horn.
    that an incorrect statement..... the cables were attached to the wrong END FITTINGS that in turn were attached to the PROPER horn ends.... I worry this one, on every one....

  16. #616
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What is it about a PA-12 that seems to make it susceptible to having the elevators hooked up backwards? I believe that there have been four of these accidents all fatal, since I've been associated with SC.org. None of the other PA-xx models have had this situation in that time frame. Hooking up controls backwards has always frightened me. Particularly since I knew personally of a Swift's ailerons being done backwards, not fatal but plane destroyed. ALWAYS move the controls while looking for proper direction, particularly after maintenance.
    N1PA
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  17. #617
    180Marty's Avatar
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    What is it about a PA-12 that seems to make it susceptible to having the elevators hooked up backwards?
    My current 12 has a PA 18 elevator setup but the original has a rod hooked up to a bellcrank under the rear seat/ baggage area. Can't remember which way the bellcrank went with control inputs but maybe that is the culprit.
    Last edited by 180Marty; 04-20-2017 at 01:06 PM.

  18. #618
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    12s more susceptible to this problem? Maybe, maybe not. Because I fly one, anytime PA12 is mentioned my ears perk up. Could just be a matter of perception.

    Didn't we have a 12 in the last two years or so have the same problem during it's maiden post rebuild flight at Merrill? Same unfortunate outcome.

    The one time I didn't sweep the cockpit before liftoff, my controls jammed to where I had no left aileron beyond stick vertical. Was a rare no wind day at Wolf Lake and landed uneventfully. Did an immediate search for a gremlin and found it. A pebble, sized and shaped like a pencil lead was in the groove of a pulley under the rear seat. I could have obviously overpowered the pebble IF I knew what it was. But I wasn't interested in possibly causing further loss of controllability in that situation.

    "Controls FREE and CORRECT," every flight, every time.
    "Always looking up"
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  19. #619

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    I always taught 'Thumbs Up'.
    With a control stick, grasp it with your thumb pointing up. When you move the stick, your thumb will be pointing at the control surface that should be 'up'.
    This also works with a control wheel. Perfectly on the ailerons. You just have use a little more imagination with the elevators. I always said to point your thumb the direction, fore or aft, that you are moving the wheel. So, when you move the wheel aft, your thumb will be pointing aft at the up elevator.

  20. #620

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    Well unfortunately we know where many of these peoples thumbs were. if you don't understand your flight controls and what and where they are supposed to do and be at then you should not be flying.

  21. #621
    L18C-95's Avatar
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    With side by side seating 'up yours, up mine' also works if somewhat inelegant! Full and free before taxiing and before take off.


    Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

  22. #622
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    http://www.ktuu.com/content/news/NTS...421046543.html

    NTSB: Pilot killed in September plane crash had high carbon monoxide levels in blood
    In addition to the damaged muffler and exhaust issues, the NTSB said that they could not find evidence that the airplane was equipped with any type of carbon monoxide detection devices which could have helped alert the pilot before they reached the levels that led to a 48 percent count in his blood.
    http://media.graytvinc.com/images/69...ntsb+photo.png
    The NTSB released this image of the damaged muffler can. "Areas adjacent to the missing material had white, oxidized exhaust deposits. Cracks and corrosion on the interior surface of the exterior shroud in an area under a riveted doubler were also seen," it said.

  23. #623
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 08-MAY-17
    Time: 20:37:00Z
    Regis#: N245KW
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: ACCIDENT
    Highest Injury: SERIOUS
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
    LOCATION
    City: COEUR D ALENE
    State: IDAHO
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING WENT OFF THE RUNWAY AND CRASHED INTO THE FIELD, COEUR D ALENE, ID

  24. #624
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 29-APR-17
    Time: 01:00:00Z
    Regis#: N82563
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: ACCIDENT
    Highest Injury: NONE
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
    LOCATION
    City: BIRCHWOOD
    State: ALASKA
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, GEAR COLLAPSED, BIRCHWOOD, ALASKA
    INJURY DATA

  25. #625
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 29-APR-17
    Time: 01:00:00Z
    Regis#: N82563
    Aircraft Make: PIPER
    Aircraft Model: PA18
    Event Type: ACCIDENT
    Highest Injury: NONE
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
    LOCATION
    City: BIRCHWOOD
    State: ALASKA
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, GEAR COLLAPSED, BIRCHWOOD, ALASKA
    INJURY DATA
    oh, I had seen that one "for sale" for a while.... next to where I park and eat my lunch.... they were loading it with clam digging gear last time I noticed a week or so ago.... spendy clams....

  26. #626
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    IDENTIFICATION
    Date: 07-MAY-17
    Time: 02:45:00Z
    Regis#: N47KJ
    Aircraft Make: EXPERIMENTAL SUPER CUB
    Aircraft Model: SUPER CUB SPORT
    Event Type: ACCIDENT
    Highest Injury: NONE
    Aircraft Missing: No
    Damage: SUBSTANTIAL
    LOCATION
    City: SPANISH FORK
    State: UTAH
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, GROUND LOOPED, SPANISH FORK, UT

  27. #627
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    A bad one in an Arctic Tern east of Fairbanks. Killed two from the Fairbanks area: http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska...0d7687c80.html

    Sad day, both these gents were very prominent Fairbanks area business men, and genuinely good guys.

    MTV
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  28. #628

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    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...nes-ntsb-says/

    VERY VERY SAD . Why would one do this.

  29. #629
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Damn. Tailwind to blue skies.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    =========
    PA-12 fan

  30. #630
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskflyer View Post
    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...nes-ntsb-says/

    VERY VERY SAD . Why would one do this.
    Shaking my head. 15 miles from the main airport, maybe less.

    Was relieved when a mutual friend answered his phone and was not in the plane.

    Please be careful, and don't offer to hold a beer.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  31. #631
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    A bad one in an Arctic Tern east of Fairbanks. Killed two from the Fairbanks area: http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska...0d7687c80.html

    Sad day, both these gents were very prominent Fairbanks area business men, and genuinely good guys.

    MTV
    https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...28X22231&key=1

    Gary
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  32. #632
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Alaska plane crash

    Last updated at 3:45 p.m. on Saturday, May 27
    Two people are confirmed dead and one is in critical condition following a fatal plane crash near the small Southeast Alaska community of Haines.
    The crash happened around 11 a.m. Saturday, according to NTSB Alaska chief Clint Johnson.
    Witnesses reported the plane crashed shortly after takeoff.
    Two of the occupants were confirmed dead at the scene, while a third person in critical condition was flown to Juneau, said Johnson.
    The plane was a twin engine Piper PA-30.
    NTSB officials out of Anchorage and the Alaska State Troopers out of Juneau are investigating the crash.
    No further details have been made available at this time.

    FOLLOWED BY:

    Sole survivor of deadly plane crash said pilot intentionally shut off one of the aircraft's engines





    ANCHORAGE (KTUU) - The sole survivor of a plane crash near Haines last month told investigators that the pilot intentionally shut down one of the engines, according to a report made by the National Transportation Safety Board.
    The plane went down on May 27, claiming the lives of the pilot and another passenger. The third passenger, seated in the rear of the plane, a Piper PA-30, survived the crash with “serious injuries,” the NTSB report said.
    David Kunat of Juneau was piloting the plane along with Stanley Su Quoc Nguyen, 29, of Garden Grove, California and Chan Valentine, also of Juneau. Valentine was the only one to survive the crash.
    In the NTSB report, which is comprised of preliminary findings and is not a definitive conclusion, it states that Valentine told investigators that, just prior to the crash, Kunat was attempting to show the passengers a piloting procedure.
    “About 20 minutes into the flight the pilot intentionally shut down the right engine and was demonstrating how to restart the engine during flight,” the NTSB wrote.
    Valentine reportedly told investigators that, after shutting down the engine on purpose to illustrate how a pilot can then restart it, “the engine would not rotate through with electrical power to start the engine.”
    Attempts were then made to “air-start” the engine, by climbing in altitude and then diving the airplane down to “use airflow to assist in rotating the engine,” however this was unsuccessful.
    Valentine told investigators that the last thing he remembered was the pilot making a low-level pass on a gravel airstrip to verify that it could be landed on. Kunat’s intention was to then “use a battery booster located in the baggage compartment to start the engine.”
    The report also says a witness located across Lynn Canal, which is about 2 miles east of Glacier point, watched through binoculars as the plane crashed. The witness told investigators the airplane “reached the end of the airstrip, descended just before it banked to the right, and subsequently impacted the shoreline in a right wing-down, nose-down attitude.” The witness then assisted with rescue efforts for those aboard the plane.
    The NTSB said that the investigation “revealed impact damage consistent with a right wing-down, nose-down airplane attitude during ground impact.” They said the wreckage was recovered for further examination.

  33. #633
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Twin Comanche is a great airplane which flew well with two 160 hp Lycos. Early in it's life there were a number of spin accidents which happened during single engine Vmc demonstrations. It is possible that some of the younger pilots and their instructors are not familiar with that characteristic. The following is a good review of the PA-30.
    http://www.planecheck.com/twincom.htm

    This is an excerpt from the article:
    With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight we now know that no light twin, (except Cessna's 336/337) should be stalled with one engine dead. The wide distribution of weight in the engines and fuel has an aggravating affect under asymmetric thrust. Once the rudder has run out of effective control (below Vmc), a stall may quickly turn into an unrecoverable flat spin. At FAA recommended low altitudes, this was a great prescription for killing pilots in training and is exactly what happened. It led to the Twin Comanche acquiring a totally undeserved reputation.

    In belated recognition of demonstrating the dangers of Vmc, the FAA responded in 1969 by a simple stroke of the pen, to increasing the PA-30's Vmc from 80 to 90 mph.
    N1PA

  34. #634
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Date: 07-JUN-17
    Time: 00:30:00Z
    Regis#: N207RB
    Aircraft Make: CESSNA
    Aircraft Model: C207
    Event Type: INCIDENT
    Highest Injury: NONE
    Aircraft Missing: No
    No injuries when plane carrying 6 flips during beach landing at bear-viewing site

    pencil Author: Chris Klint clock Updated: 5 hours ago calendar Published 1 day ago

    Six people were unhurt Tuesday afternoon when their aircraft flipped on the same Cook Inlet beach where at least two other aircraft found themselves in trouble last year, according to crash investigators.

    Clint Johnson, the National Transportation Safety Board's Alaska chief, said the NorthAir Inc. flight had taken off from Kenai and was landing on a beach in Chinitna Bay at about 4:30 p.m. The Cessna 207 was on a bear-watching trip at the time.

    "On landing, (the plane) flipped over onto its back," Johnson said.


    The bay is on the west side of Cook Inlet, across the inlet from Anchor Point.

    Johnson said the flip occurred at the same site where a pair of Cessna 206s tipped onto their noses last July.


    Damage: UNKNOWN
    LOCATION
    City: CHINITNA BAY
    State: ALASKA
    Country: UNITED STATES
    DESCRIPTION
    Description: AIRCRAFT ON LANDING ON A BEACH, FLIPPED OVER, CHINITNA BAY, ALASKA
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  35. #635

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    score= beach 3 . totaled the 207
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  36. #636
    Ruffair's Avatar
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    I can see Chad Carpenter doing a Tundra cartoon about this place...!
    "...We're fast enough to get there, But slow enough to see..."
    Fron the song "Barometer Soup". By Jimmy Buffett
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  37. #637

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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	plane-12.jpg 
Views:	70 
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ID:	31624Last year at chinitna bay ooops.
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  38. #638

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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	N207RB.jpg 
Views:	79 
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ID:	31625This yrs oops. N207RB.
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  39. #639
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskflyer View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	N207RB.jpg 
Views:	79 
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ID:	31625This yrs oops. N207RB.
    gonna take lots of seat rails pop riveted to the outside to ferry that one back out... I had one that the owner tried to turn back over without digging a whole for engine.. looked like that... plus both from spars broke/kinked near struts on bottom... just take snips and cut the skins near the crinkles...leave the stringers intact to get you your length right

  40. #640

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    Mike thats funny , I thought of saying to begin with just call Mike. lol. id like to see the front end and strut ends

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