heavy (raffle) cub vs light cub

[schnell49]

Think raffle cub was 1340lbs.....you can insert your own comments about that, I have mine and no matter how I try to say it I am not looking to get yelled at so I will leave my thoughts about it out and just ask some questions:

my only interest in this is because i will be doing a rebuild of mine between now and 3 years so ideas and the such are getting stuffed into my back pocket. SO:

Is it possible, that hard or that much more money to build a cub at 1150lbs with electrical, 3" gear, 31's and baby, pod, couple of pertinent mods to fuse, float fittings, borer, vg's, 160hp? (mine is 1200lb, with rounded dakota wings--so, 1150 might be hard (wings were new when i bought cub so I am stuck with them) FYI).


SO, in your dream, what would you rather see/win or have: an 1150lb 160 cub or a 1340lb 180hp pod less cub? (certified)

Which is more marketable?

[aktango58]

Use stewarts system, save 20 lbs or so.

carbon fiber floor, aft baggage

light starter, 8 amp alternator

no vacume

side doors to minimum

light pain on parts

narrow deck.

thin washers, minimum bolt length.

move brakes to front only

led lights, and lighter gauge wire

[8856Charlie]

I say the lighter the better, Thats what I want.

[sierra bravo]

There are two kinds of beer. Cold beer and free beer, and free beer doesn't have to be cold. So it goes with the raffle airplane. It represents the aggregate of all the donated bells and whistles anyone could dream of and the execution is first rate. I have nothing but kudos for the guys who built it and the companies that donated to it. It isn't what I'd build but if somebody handed me the keys I wouldn't turn my nose up at it. I hope the new owner has a blast.

[bob turner]

I would sell the thing, pay the taxes, and get a nice light 160 Cub with the left over. A Cub that heavy is not going to perform as well as some.

[OLDCROWE]

There are two kinds of beer. Cold beer and free beer, and free beer doesn't have to be cold. So it goes with the raffle airplane. It represents the aggregate of all the donated bells and whistles anyone could dream of and the execution is first rate. I have nothing but kudos for the guys who built it and the companies that donated to it. It isn't what I'd build but if somebody handed me the keys I wouldn't turn my nose up at it. I hope the new owner has a blast.

Respectfully nominated for best post of the year!

OC

Ps. SJ how about adding a few of the years greatest posts to the calendar.

[RobS]

Crunch some numbers on power to weight ratios on the 1150 lbs. (not many of these around) & 160 hp (no pilot) then add your weight and X amount of fuel. Do the same for the "heavy cub" and you will surprise yourself in the power to weight ratio department.

[RobS]

the "heavy cub" had a 180 hp.

[dave]

I crunched the numbers and both come to 7.5 lb/hp. Does the same power-to-weight ratio equal the same performance. I'd say no.

[SteveE]

Well said Stewart,, great post...

[aktango58]

Building, lite.

But if'n you was to get one for $50, (plus taxes), Got to give it to SB, he is the sayer of truth.

I would even fly Mr. BigE's cub if he gave it to me!

The AA raffle cub is a different mission than many, does not make it a bad plane, just different.

[pzinck]

The really amazing super cubs that appear to be magic are the light ones, at least in my little bit of experience. I would love to have the one that was raffled. I love my cub. It is a light 180hp a model. A few years back my bud die Dan ( nezinscot river seaplane ) dufault helped us build up a light 150 hp a model. It just felt so balanced and was a joy to fly. If I was to do it over, I would have kept that one instead of the highly modified 180 I have now. It is a very fine performing cub, just not as balanced. 150 hp does everything a 180 hp cub does, except climp so steep, if kept light. My mods do their job, but not any better than a light cub. I think the magic of the new cub crafter ss models is light weight. I am far from an expert, but have flown and seen lots of them fly. A heavy all the bells and whistles cub is fine for lots of people, maybe even more useful for lots . One of the beautiful things about having one is, we can equip anyway we want. Droop ailerons, squared wings, slotted wings, extended wings and all that other junk is not going to make you land any shorter than a good pilot in a light cub. I have to be more proficient to land my nodded cub and make it look magic, the light one was easy if out of practice. A super cub is not a skyway and in my opinion if you equip one like a sky wagon they just don't feel cub like.

[njneer]

Is it possible, that hard or that much more money to build a cub at 1150lbs with electrical, 3" gear, 31's and baby, pod, couple of pertinent mods to fuse, float fittings, borer, vg's, 160hp? (mine is 1200lb, with rounded dakota wings--so, 1150 might be hard (wings were new when i bought cub so I am stuck with them) FYI).


SO, in your dream, what would you rather see/win or have: an 1150lb 160 cub or a 1340lb 180hp pod less cub? (certified)

Which is more marketable?

Is it possible - yes. I have a 1965 cub, electrical, borer prop, no pod, Goodyear 26x10.5, VGs, 160 hp, and it weighs in at 1,141. I put new fabric on the wings and control surfaces in the last 5 years. The fabric on the fuselage is 35+ years old now with lots of paint. I hope to put new fabric on the fuselage soon, finances permitting; and I hope to shave some weight off the plane by doing that, and shave some off the pilot too.

I attended the show with a friend, and when I bought a ticket, he posed the same question to me, would I keep the old plane, or the new? I am not in a financial postion that would permit me to own two planes for very long, even if someone handed one to me.

To be honest, I have worked hard to get my plane where it is, a labor of love. Right now I say I would keep mine, should I ever be fortunate enough to win one. I think the true test would be to fly both in similar conditions and see which I like better. It would be hard to resist all the shiney, new stuff and concentrate on performance only. Right now, I think I would sell the new, use some of the money to re-skin the fuselage, add the bushwheels, the 406 ELT, engine analyzer, and then use the rest to buy gas and learn to fly what I have
, better.

[Dave Calkins]

Schnell, Light weight is always gonna help. However, a fuselage frame that has the angles right is a must for a sweet flyer.

I flew the raffle cub from several years back, a Dan's-build with a known-correct fuselage frame.....around 1250 e.w.........and a sweetie!.........

SierraBravo.......what you wrote is surely a qoute-able post!!!!!


Pzink....you're wrong about '''....all that other junk....". Sorry for having to say that. However.....You're right about Dan Dufault...he builds a fine flying a/c!!!

[pzinck]

Hey Dave, I am wrong lots.lol. I always enjoy your opinion and you make lots of great points. Maybe I am getting old, just really like the feel of a light cub.

[skywagon8a]

I crunched the numbers and both come to 7.5 lb/hp. Does the same power-to-weight ratio equal the same performance. I'd say no.

Agreed, now crunch the numbers using wing area instead of horsepower. The lb/sq. foot will not be equal except at max gross. Load them both to max (legal) gross. Fly out to your favorite remote spot. Unload and look at your pile of stuff. Which pile is bigger? Which plane is more useful? Did you have to leave something behind? Like perhaps your passenger?

I once ferried a stock light weight ratty looking J-5. I was surprised. It got out, and in, as short as a J-3. Do you suppose that the weight had anything to do with it? The only other J-5s which I have flown all have had O-235 engines. I'd like to have that rat. Last that I heard it is stuffed in a barn somewhere in SE Mass. The owner went west years ago.

[Tadpole]

I've heard that given the exact same built Cub...with only the 160 or 180hp being the difference on the front, that the 160 will outperform the 180 simply due to the weight difference in the engine. Sounds odd though.

[alaskadrifter]

Seems like Crash has the best example of a light(er) 180hp cub. If I remember right it came in just over 1200lbs.

[dave]

Agreed, now crunch the numbers using wing area instead of horsepower. The lb/sq. foot will not be equal except at max gross. Load them both to max (legal) gross. Fly out to your favorite remote spot. Unload and look at your pile of stuff. Which pile is bigger? Which plane is more useful? Did you have to leave something behind? Like perhaps your passenger?

Yep, It's mission driven.

[Bugs66]

I've heard that given the exact same built Cub...with only the 160 or 180hp being the difference on the front, that the 160 will outperform the 180 simply due to the weight difference in the engine. Sounds odd though.

I know my friend that flies with me regularly has a dream of that. He has stock Cub with borer, 8.50 tires. I have 180hp with 31's, GW around 1220. Sorry, it's no contest. No substitue for power.

[J5Ron]

I know my friend that flies with me regularly has a dream of that. He has stock Cub with borer, 8.50 tires. I have 180hp with 31's, GW around 1220. Sorry, it's no contest. No substitute for power.

Funny how that is Bugs...seems I haven't seen the 180hp win down there in Valdez...most of the winners are 150 or 160 equipped airplanes... There are advantages to he 180 hp planes...however It seems to me the lighter 150-160hp cubs beat the lighter 180hp cubs off the ground hands down...The 180hp cubs are definitely work-horses who climb well, and cruise faster...

[Bugs66]

Funny how that is Bugs...seems I haven't seen the 180hp win down there in Valdez...most of the winners are 150 or 160 equipped airplanes... There are advantages to he 180 hp planes...however It seems to me the lighter 150-160hp cubs beat the lighter 180hp cubs off the ground hands down...The 180hp cubs are definitely work-horses who climb well, and cruise faster...

So those have full fuel, a load of camping gear, food, and density altitude issues to deal with? Which contest is that? Why not put a J-3 with O-200 against the 150/160 Cub at Valdez? Which one wins then? My example is real world. The guy who gets the Airman's Cub will have a big smile.

P.S. I wanted to add they are all great airplanes, don't get me wrong. Just when I see people slamming the 180hp I feel like chiming in. If you can swing it, it is REAL NICE.

[spinner2]

Funny how that is Bugs...seems I haven't seen the 180hp win down there in Valdez...most of the winners are 150 or 160 equipped airplanes... There are advantages to he 180 hp planes...however It seems to me the lighter 150-160hp cubs beat the lighter 180hp cubs off the ground hands down...The 180hp cubs are definitely work-horses who climb well, and cruise faster...

Might that be because half the score is landing distance? A light Cub will land slower and shorter. A heavier but higher HP Cub will often takeoff quicker.

To the OP I had a 1130 pound rebuilt Cub with full electric, 160 HP. Very nice performer. But I've learned to like my current Cub at 1005 pounds and 180 HP even more.


Sent from my iPhone from the middle of nowhere using Tapatalk

[J5Ron]

So those have full fuel, a load of camping gear, food, and density altitude issues to deal with? Which contest is that? Why not put a J-3 with O-200 against the 150/160 Cub at Valdez? Which one wins then? My example is real world. The guy who gets the Airman's Cub will have a big smile.

P.S. I wanted to add they are all great airplanes, don't get me wrong. Just when I see people slamming the 180hp I feel like chiming in. If you can swing it, it is REAL NICE.

Your right...All are great cub...and we are blessed to fly them...if I had a 14...my preference would be 180... my exp 4place...though I have not flown it yet...I wish I had a 180 for it....Here in the real world of bush flyn in the Copper Basin...of the 12 or so WORKING cubs, only two are 180hp..( one of them being the HULK). I think in most conditions the lighter 150-160hp cub breaks ground sooner...but the 180 cub climbs out better... Of the 10 or so buddies that fly from here to Valdez...only one is a 180hp...a 12...and it is a beast in all aspects...Buggs...BTW, you have a beautiful plane...Nice job!

[Tadpole]

One day I'll build up a Cub of my own, and I plan to put 180 in it since I live at 7,000'MSL and like to go fly up in the mountains above me.

[Carey Gray]

A few years ago at Snohomish, we had the "Bush Challenge"--just a takeoff. We loaded 300# in Jerry Burr's J-3, Jim Richmond's SuperSport Cub and Greg Miller's Got Rocks Cub. Jerry Burr got off the shortest. Go figure.
Greg won the big cup for the shortest combined total, without the 300#.
Heavy Cub/Light Cub, who cares? Burn some gas, learn how to fly it, have some fun.
The best way to have a light airplane is to leave some stuff out. If you have less stuff, you have less stuff to fix.
That's reason enough for me to like light airplanes.

[Bugs66]

See I told you there should be a J-3 in every challenge!

[moneyburner]

There are two kinds of beer. Cold beer and free beer, and free beer doesn't have to be cold. So it goes with the raffle airplane. It represents the aggregate of all the donated bells and whistles anyone could dream of and the execution is first rate. I have nothing but kudos for the guys who built it and the companies that donated to it. It isn't what I'd build but if somebody handed me the keys I wouldn't turn my nose up at it. I hope the new owner has a blast.

You hit the nail squarely top dead center. I was having thoughts along those lines, but you articulated it perfectly. All those donations add up; that thing can haul all that goodwill around and then some. I'd be proud of it.

[supercub24a]

Think raffle cub was 1340lbs.....you can insert your own comments about that, I have mine and no matter how I try to say it I am not looking to get yelled at so I will leave my thoughts about it out and just ask some questions:

my only interest in this is because i will be doing a rebuild of mine between now and 3 years so ideas and the such are getting stuffed into my back pocket. SO:

Is it possible, that hard or that much more money to build a cub at 1150lbs with electrical, 3" gear, 31's and baby, pod, couple of pertinent mods to fuse, float fittings, borer, vg's, 160hp? (mine is 1200lb, with rounded dakota wings--so, 1150 might be hard (wings were new when i bought cub so I am stuck with them) FYI).


SO, in your dream, what would you rather see/win or have: an 1150lb 160 cub or a 1340lb 180hp pod less cub? (certified)

Which is more marketable?

As i read all the posts the answer to "your" question is yes it is very easy to make a 1150LB duel cub! A stock 150 HP cub out of the factory in 1976 came in about around 1058LB What we seem to forget is that many replacement parts are being fabricated and PMA'd at a heaver weight than what was from piper! Ribs,Struts,L/E Skins,windows,Fuselages to name a few.We have made lighter oil coolers,starters,alternators ect. Its all in what you want.
Steve C

[Frenchy]

My exp. cub came out at 1050 with 24x11x4 tundra , extended wings ,ext.flaps,0-320e2d dynafocal 160HP,sensenich 74/56 for break in,2 doors,minimum instruments, LW stater and Alt. odyssey pc545. . I had about 20 hrs on the plane when i did some touch and go, At about 4 min. in the video i can take off in about 100 feet( whieh strips are 100`) and i don`t have much time with the plane.It flys really well, but i`m sure i would love to have a 180HP when i go on floats.

Frenchy

[NimpoCub]

I've heard that given the exact same built Cub...with only the 160 or 180hp being the difference on the front, that the 160 will outperform the 180 simply due to the weight difference in the engine. Sounds odd though.

Sounded odd when explained to me too (by Bart) so I decided to go with the 0320. I was quite surprised to beat the neighbor's 0360 off the water by a full second. (we don't talk about that much) I expect we'd have different results if both had a moose loaded tho!

Main thing, I believe, is that your mission will dictate your equipment, no matter what it is. Even Maules & C185s are good, but that's NOT my mission.

[aktango58]

I was quite surprised to beat the neighbor's 0360 off the water by a full second.

Who was carrying the beer????

I had a company cub- 150 hp on Aqua floats, and my cub- 180 hp on edos and square tips that I could fly each day. The 150 cub would perform right with my bird any day.... until it got hot or loaded. It took 1 foot extra per pound to get the 150 cub out for the first extra 100 lbs, then went exponential.

the 180 never noticed weight until it was real heavy.

On wheels, short landing and light, the less weight up front the better.

I would take a $50 tricked out cub and dance all day. It is just a crime to use it like I fly though.

[schnell49]

Thx for the inputs....most of us would take it for $50-no argument there--just ensuring an 1150 lbish cub was possible--I pretty much knew it was possible but just left there thinking; seeing a "showcase" cub weighing 1340lbs that maybe I was wrong in my thoughts. Especially with the new products, paint and focus that most people put into a rebuild--weight obviously, usually being a factor. Would assume if you don't put thought into it it would weigh in at 1250 or 1350--hp dependent. I've never done a rebuild so it's why I asked and mean no disrespect, FYI.

[NimpoCub]

I was "aware" of weight all through my rebuild, but not real anal about it. I think I put on more than enough paint, both frame & fabric (many thin coats). Anyway, she came in @ 1088# on skis. I didn't drill ANY lightening holes, 'cuz I'm not an engineer. Biggest things were that heavy Gill battery & about 10' of heavy copper cable, and the old starter & generator & associated wiring, etc. I WAS gonna leave out the rear seat controls (because of MY mission) but put 'em back in for pass. comfort... (pilots or instructors)