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Thread: Drones

  1. #1
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Drones

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...p_mostpop_read

    Recipients of these special permits must fly in a certain geographic area outlined on their application. Currently, the FAA typically doesn't allow drones to fly through airspace where commercial, business and private planes travel.
    Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
    J-5 Project Pictures

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What is the difference between a drone and a radio controlled model airplane? There are some really big model airplanes out there. The FAA does not control model airplanes.
    N1PA

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    Altitude, range and being controlled from a remote location. See and Avoid???? Right now, they have to be within sight of a person, either a series of people on the ground or in an chase airplane to qualify and they'd like to loosen those restrictions. My concern is not seeing one of these 49 pound UASs at my altitude, especially in the back country where blending into the background could be a real problem.
    Last edited by jmkota; 04-22-2012 at 09:43 AM.

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    Not to be overly dramatic, but the insertion of drones into the National Airspace System has the potential to have the most significant negative impact on general aviation of anything that has hit the airways since Orville and Wilbur's first flight.

    The industry lobbyists, being a little impatient with the FAA's progress on "integrating UAS into the NAS" paid off our legislators big time to insert a provision into the FAA's new budget bill, which requires the FAA to develop up to six "test sites" within a year or so, AND more importantly, to "integrate UAS into the National Airspace System" by 2015. THAT, my friends, is a really short time line.

    A whole bunch of people have their panties in a wad over privacy concerns.....I could care less if some bored cop wants to spy on my back yard...

    But, ANY of these things is going to leave a mark on a "real" airplane. That is the big issue in my opinion, and none of us will be safe flying unless an adequate solution is found, and fast.

    In my opinion, it SHOULD be up to the industry to develop "sense and avoid" technology. It should be (and currently is) the responsibility of the operator to avoid aircraft collisions, to yield the right of way as appropriate, etc.

    Now, how do you suppose the FAA is going to accomplish the concept of "sense and avoid"??? Let's see...the FAA has been pushing "Nextgen" for a number of years, and one of the biggest issues so far is nobody really wants to re-equip every airplane in the world to reduce the funding burden on the FAA. So, how could you accomplish "sense and avoid" for a drone? Why, ADS-B, of course. And, that will fit in VERY nicely with the whole Next Gen program.

    And, the only way that will work (ADS-B) is if EVERYone flying has the equipment.

    How does your J-3 fit into that scheme?

    MTV

  5. #5

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    The FAA's mandate for establishing drone airspace requires that it not interfere with GA airspace. I figure they'll probably establish GA airspace by analyzing flight plans, which many of us almost never file. Time will tell.

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    180Marty's Avatar
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    I think there is an element in gov't that wants total control, we already have TSA, Homeland Security,etc.and I think there is a push to make General Aviation more burdensome with user fees and such. Less GA makes it better for the drones but if they start going out of control and hitting people and houses maybe some unhappy people can slow the push for this down. I remember as a kid living in the Tidewater area of Virginia and the house was rattling all the time from sonic booms. Finally people got that stopped. Hopefully this drone thing can be stopped also.

  7. #7
    Tim's Avatar
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    It might be like shooting clay pigeons, it could be fun
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    centmont's Avatar
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    The battle has been joined here....we have a big target on our backs as one of the 6 "test sites". Ironically the guy pushing the hardest is from Kalispell...we have told him where to put his test sites, but apparently it is forever dark there. All cub drivers need to follow and respond here....the places they want to control are exactly the places we love to go. Ralph (Winifred)
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
    www.TheCubWorks.com

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    From license plate readers along the roadside, also being monitored by those bored cops btw, to the new black boxes in our cars to cops spying on back yards I've got a big problem with it. It is amazing to me that someone would be so willing to give up his or her civil rights. You can make the claim that my panties are in a wad if you want but I don't see it that way. Jim

  10. #10
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    Having flown in airspace inhabited by "drones " I definately do not want to have to worry about them in U.S. national airspace. Too many close calls with them being at the wrong altitude , or losing lock and going through my altitude etc. Almost as dangerous as maned Air Force aircraft!

  11. #11
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You are absolutely correct Mike.
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Now, how do you suppose the FAA is going to accomplish the concept of "sense and avoid"??? Let's see...the FAA has been pushing "Nextgen" for a number of years, and one of the biggest issues so far is nobody really wants to re-equip every airplane in the world to reduce the funding burden on the FAA. So, how could you accomplish "sense and avoid" for a drone? Why, ADS-B, of course. And, that will fit in VERY nicely with the whole Next Gen program.

    And, the only way that will work (ADS-B) is if EVERYone flying has the equipment.

    How does your J-3 fit into that scheme?

    MTV
    If you look into the ADS-B regulations, you will find that the equipment will not be required on aircraft that do not have a certificated electrical system. Also, a certificated electrical system has an engine driven electric source. That seems to mean that a wind driven electric source does not fall under the "certificated" requirement. So, if you have a J-3 etc., or any aircraft with a wind driven electrical system, you will not need to comply with the ADS-B requirements. There must be thousands of these aircraft in the sky. Also, I would wager that 99.9% of those in the regulation business have no clue what so ever that there may be an airplane out there flying that does not have radio control from the ground.
    N1PA

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    Pete,

    Oh, I think you are absolutely correct on that last point. That said, it would be really easy to simply change that requirement for ADS-B out on all aircraft (except those that have no electrical system) to one which requires ADS-B out on all aircraft including drones. Who cares about a few antiquated aircraft or their equally antiquated operators??? (not MY feelings, you understand)?

    The FAA has a HUGE mandate dumped on them, thanks to the drone lobby, and it's got a seriously short deadline.

    Frankly, this is one area where I believe the FAA has been wise to go slowly, but that's over now.....and I'm afraid GA pilots are the ones who are going to suffer. Ever seen the airspace in Russia?

    MTV

  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Pete, Ever seen the airspace in Russia?
    MTV
    Yes many times, though not in the last dozen years. They, at that time, were still operating in the aviation stone age. Totally with NDBs except in the Moscow traffic pattern.
    N1PA

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    Are one of these in your area? I wasn't even aware of the one close to me. Who knows if they are correct, and what the authorization allows.

    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=...3&source=embed

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Yes, Seattle Police Dept. I have a hard time imagining any purpose other than covert spying - - Ok, maybe traffic, but I bet that's just the cover story.
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

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    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmkota View Post
    Are one of these in your area? I wasn't even aware of the one close to me. Who knows if they are correct, and what the authorization allows.

    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=...3&source=embed
    No authorization(s) in Oregon for drones as seen from your unclassified google map. We are off the radar. I hope.

  17. #17
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    Not for long. There are people all over this country just drooling to get their hands on ten of these things.....

    MTV

  18. #18
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Not for long. There are people all over this country just drooling to get their hands on ten of these things.....

    MTV
    Oh well. They can watch the hippies 24/7 now....

  19. #19
    cruiser's Avatar
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    180Marty's Avatar
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    Drone warfare represents a new threat to soldiers' humanity, French says.
    The men were looking at a gray German Messerschmitt fighter hovering just three feet off their wingtip. It was five days before Christmas 1943, and the fighter had closed in on their crippled American B-17 bomber for the kill.
    The B-17 pilot, Charles Brown, was a 21-year-old West Virginia farm boy on his first combat mission. His bomber had been shot to pieces by swarming fighters, and his plane was alone in the skies above Germany. Half his crew was wounded, and the tail gunner was dead, his blood frozen in icicles over the machine guns.
    But when Brown and his co-pilot, Spencer "Pinky" Luke, looked at the fighter pilot again, something odd happened. The German didn't pull the trigger. He nodded at Brown instead. What happened next was one of the most remarkable acts of chivalry recorded during World War II. Years later, Brown would track down his would-be executioner for a reunion that reduced both men to tears.
    http://www.newsforage.com/2013/03/ge...merican-b.html

  21. #21
    centmont's Avatar
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    Beautiful story Marty...thanks. Ralph
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
    www.TheCubWorks.com

  22. #22
    Snert's Avatar
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    I walk out of the house in the morning, look up at the sky and give it the finger, just incase somebody is looking.
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  23. #23
    SJ's Avatar
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    Re: Drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Snert View Post
    I walk out of the house in the morning, look up at the sky and give it the finger, just incase somebody is looking.
    Ha!

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  24. #24
    180Marty's Avatar
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    You're welcome Ralph. Hard to imagine the emotions.

    X2 for Snert's comment.

  25. #25
    Snert's Avatar
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    I enjoy watching them being flown.
    rc.jpg
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  26. #26
    Bill Ingerson's Avatar
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    Talking to a friend of mine who lives in WhiteFish Montana, He said there was a add in the paper looking for Drone pilots. Pretty scary

  27. #27
    Ruffair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ingerson View Post
    Talking to a friend of mine who lives in WhiteFish Montana, He said there was a add in the paper looking for Drone pilots. Pretty scary
    If they all looked like the above photo, I'd like to see a picture of the ground school class..!


    I wonder if she's from Okla - Homa?

    ......."the best navigator doesn't know where he's going till he gets there... then he's still not sure".......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffair View Post
    If they all looked like the above photo, I'd like to see a picture of the ground school class..!


    I wonder if she's from Okla - Homa?
    Mountainous terrain for sure!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  29. #29
    centmont's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ingerson View Post
    Talking to a friend of mine who lives in WhiteFish Montana, He said there was a add in the paper looking for Drone pilots. Pretty scary
    Interestingly...Whitefish is basically a neighbor of the politician (Ryan Zinke) who is pushing so hard to bring UAVs into our airspace out east. R
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  30. #30
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    An excellent book and story. I finished the Kindle edition last week. That WWII generation is disappearing fast. My father in law is a navy veteran of that war. He turns 95 this week. Still living at home too.

    Ralph there is a drone training facility very close to the Kalispell VOR. That could be why Zimke has an interest. I foresee a time soon when we'll have drones patrolling our northern border.
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  31. #31
    centmont's Avatar
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    Here is a list of Zinke's professional businesses associations (Grumman, General Dynamics, Sierra Nevada, Unmanned Systems INC, ) Those are the drone people; no wonder he pu$hed $o hard for drones while in our legislature. The problem is, he doesn't want to keep them at home but expand them into this eastern Montana airspace. Our passion for airplanes lies between him and his money. The guy is a retired seal team 6 commander...via computer is the safest way to disagree with him. R
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
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  32. #32
    SJ's Avatar
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    Pretty decent article about drones. I have been following the AMA (academy of model aeronautics) as there is a lot of concern that RC models are suddenly all going to be "drones".

    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/04/12/what-is-a-drone-anyway/
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  33. #33
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    So what happens when a "drone" flies over the president's golf game and gets intercepted by a F-16 and is ordered to land? Does the "drone" land or shoot back?
    N1PA

  34. #34
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    An excellent book and story. I finished the Kindle edition last week. That WWII generation is disappearing fast. My father in law is a navy veteran of that war. He turns 95 this week. Still living at home too.

    Ralph there is a drone training facility very close to the Kalispell VOR. That could be why Zimke has an interest. I foresee a time soon when we'll have drones patrolling our northern border.
    Dan,

    They already are. Predator B's are operated out of Grand Forks AFB, and controlled by CBP Air and Marine out of Grand Forks. Take a look at the electronic version of the Twin Cities sectional, and above Grand Forks AFB, you'll see a half moon shaped TFR, which is the climb corridor for the Predators, so they can launch to and from. They climb in that corridor up to Positive Controlled A/S (Alpha airspace for you youngsters), then they patrol the border on an "IFR" plan, essentially.

    And, they've been operating Predators for years out of Fort Huachuca, near Sierra Vista, AZ to patrol the southern border.

    MTV

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    No comment
    Last edited by WWhunter; 03-13-2013 at 11:21 AM.

  36. #36
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Now they have done it. The FAA has grounded a radio controlled model airplane like SJ's.
    http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/0...hoto-business/
    N1PA

  37. #37
    RanchPilot's Avatar
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    Interesting article from AvWeb about a very near miss between a drone and an A300 with 100 pax aboard in Kabul back in 2004.

    http://http://www.avweb.com/avwebfla..._208808-1.html

    The camera footage from the drone shows just how close it really was.

    Experience is the knowledge that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.

  38. #38

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    id like to see what the wake turbulence did to it

  39. #39
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    There was a midair in Afghanistan with a Herk. Took out the engines one side. I don't think the Herk ever flew again. Luckily it was a tiny drone and not a pred.

    Jake

  40. #40

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    Seems like there ought to be someone in the cockpit who's life depends on paying attention.
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