Originally Posted by eskflyer
Unless of course they carry the minimum to open up a strip for heavy use later
or air dropped the tools to further reduce the weight...
Unless of course they carry the minimum to open up a strip for heavy use later
or air dropped the tools to further reduce the weight...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I don't think anyone questions that there are some pilots who I would easily trust to go into a challenging strip with my son or daughter in the back, just as there are some surgeons I would easily trust to perform a challenging surgery on my kids.
There are some pilots, and some surgeons, that I would not want even consider flying/operating on my kids. I think that is a difference here....there may be some concerns that people on this website have regarding the personalities, shall we say, of those who might be at the controls. I think that is why some questions are being raised.
Unfortunately, we all get lumped into the same category by the media and by those who think that all pilots are the same. We aren't. Some knucklehead who is repeatedly "very lucky" may get by with it, but when he/she doesn't it looks bad for the rest of us. I don't want my flying privileges limited because of someone who predictably flies beyond their limits. I think that is an underlying theme for those who might know the personalities of people referred to in this thread...that's just my hunch.
Randy
Hey!!! You talkin to me? After that remark, I'm bringing the dueling pistols to Gastons.
What I think is that Cliff has figured out how to somehow get money out of posting subjects that get many hits!
Those who pound their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.
If you gotta question it...don't land!
And drop thw wind to zero.
Making us wait a long time Cliff!
Having spent my military life with the government sponsoring courses to stretch my limits and supplying aircraft to use my expanded operational envelope I now have a healthy respect for them. Getting older shrinks ones personal operating envelope somewhat such that I now live by the maxim - "If there is any doubt there is no doubt" - Also I have to pay if anything, including me, gets broken!
Frank
Cliff...
I bet you can't do it.
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Your a trouble maker, aren't you the one who talked me into taking off from the ditch
Glenn
Did you have a choice?Your a trouble maker, aren't you the one who talked me into taking off from the ditch
Glenn
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
How much???
"Pops Dory"
They used to say there are no old, bold pilots, Hell, looka here...
Not after I followed you back there just before dark.Did you have a choice?
Glenn
Ohhh, I thought that was Cliff too! Then someone pm'd me that his name is Jeff. Who's this Jeff??? Why was he hoggin' the microphone? Is he in this Club? I bet he doesn't even know howta fly....
Glenn
He knows how to fly, just seems that his license is only good in Maine for some reason?Ohhh, I thought that was Cliff too! Then someone pm'd me that his name is Jeff. Who's this Jeff??? Why was he hoggin' the microphone? Is he in this Club? I bet he doesn't even know howta fly....
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
http://www.flyingmag.com/photos/my-a...y-mountain-run
Wow. This is really getting to be a tough crowd. Remind me to never stub my toe !!!! If many here ever made it to the WAD they could meet the North East celebrities first hand!!!
Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
Oh relax. I'm just trying to lure Jeff further west this year
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Further west? You mean west of Rumford, ME? That is quite a distance. I believe the NTE line is the Connecticut River. God only knows what may occur. The space/time continuim could be interrupted or even worse.
Marine Corps Aviation since 1966
If you can't do an accurate evaluation of RISK VS GAIN then probably bush flying is not a game that you should play. One must also factor in the cost of the risk and the value of the gain. A 99% chance of sucess is probably not a good risk when the cost of an unlikley 1% failure is death, or the loss of an aircraft. One must also factor in the gain. If you win a chance to pee in a pretty spot, the gain ain't much, but if you measure gain the way the coast guard pilots do on difficult life threatening emergency rescues, the gain comes out diferently.
Skill takes a back seat to judgement and common sense. If you can't evaluate the risk vs gain for yourself and then want to ask others if you can do it, probably you need more practice and should go watch tv in the intrim.
But what if you gotta pee really bad
Glenn
I believe life experiences teach one Risk vs. Gain. Some are slow to learn - like me! Ok so i've learned alot - I think i'm pretty good at evaluating risk vs. gain. I think the risk of my driving to work is probably higher than my ending up dead from trying to land on a 270 foot beach! Is there much satisfaction in landing a super cub on a 2 mile paved runway - not for me! When I find a cool spot to land - nothing gets my adrenaline pumping more than making a successful landing on that spot! And knowing most pilots would never try that! Worst case senario I see is I roll into the 5 foot deep swamp at the end of the 270 feet and need new radios! I don't see death on the card.
I don't think I asked anyone if I should land on it - I asked for the best technique. First 50 feet slopes up 6 feet - then it's flat and not beach sand but good solid ground - for 230 feet. So i'm thinking land at the waters edge - with full flaps - as I get to the top of the beach (end of the 50 feet) pull my tail up and bring my flaps up so I can get on the brakes. If I hit the beach at 40 mph - I can't see things being that bad! The 6 foot rise should blead off alot of speed! When the time is right - i'll go check it out & get some video - just getting ideas now.
cliff in Maine
Glenn - I have left yellow spots all over West Virginia.
Those who pound their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not.
My fear is water level(s) changing from day to day (Oregon).
You are going to crash if you come off the water on to an upslope which is probably steeper and softer than what you think and a 6 foot rise in 50' is a 12% slope. IF you get on the brakes you're going up on your nose, if you add power to keep the tail down and use medium braking power your are going to launch of the top off the slope and become airborne again and float 100 feet or more so no you have 100 feet to stop the plane in.
It's not as long as you you think, you can't land as slow as you think, and you can't adapt to the changing terrain like you think.
You don't have the skills to do this
Jason
Hey Tim, advice sounds good, don!t think I would try it. Learned long time ago that because others can sing dosen!t mean I can. Spoke to Marv about your potential buyer of his 2+2 he has heard nothing? Are you going to make Hampton? Cliff
Cliff,
You were not fortunate enough to hear the talk from one of our members last year at Johnson Creek. He talked frankly about being upside down in water, and how close he came to dying that day. I wish it could have been recorded and shown to all of us to remind us how close the line is between fat dumb and happy, and flat, dead and buried.
Not all life experience needs to be done ourselves... we can learn from other's mistakes.
Jason is very precise in his statements that mirror my first post on this thread. What seems easy standing there can be really bad from the seat of the plane when you are out of options.
If you had a good go around option, where you could roll her up and over the beach onto the flat and get a feel for how she will behave, and how it looks from very short final, I don't think you would see the negative response you are right now. But lacking the option to bail out safely, it is a beach that can easily kill you.
You do wear a helmet, right?
Your comment that you don't see death on the card is enough to show you really DON'T KNOW what you are getting into.
As far as the adrenaline rush, when you run out of options and it appears you will be getting very wet in your landing, and know that the plane will soon be destroyed- the adrenaline pumps more than safe landings. You do not want to go there... trust me.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Do you mind if I refer to you as Alphamale58 instead of Aktango58
Adding power to keep the tail down would for sure be a poor choice.....never done or heard of that, the last thing I would do landing short and uphill. I'd hit the bottom of the slope slow enough so in 50' of a 12% upslope, coming off the top there would not ne any energy left, just saying, not recommending.
Do you mind if I refer to you as Alphamale58 instead of Aktango58
I have a small landscape company... today I had a plan of staying clean so that at lunch with 300 people in public I would look somewhat respectable to represent our Rotary Club...
By five minutes on the job I had Hydraulic fluid on me, by ten it was the fluid, grease and dirt...
Yea, when the young lad responsible for the broken fitting showed up, I did the Alpha male speech
I am a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Back to beach landing: I reread a bunch of this. Cliff asked what tecniques to use... None. One of those places I just would find another way because I am not that good.
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
To put it simple all of us that know Cliff know he will NOT be disuaded from his mission. He truly wants the method only. He now has it in his head that he had the best idea of landing in the water and braking hard on the 50 foot upslope. Since no one agreed with him he will now attempt to show us all wrong. He will NOT attempt to land beyond on the 250 feet as he has a much better scenario in his head.
Cliff with the dings and dents in your Dakota wings and the upcoming crash what would you say the wings are worth at salvage as I am interested. Please do your best not to cartwheel her in when soft sand meets excessive braking.
Remeber the video will be worth good money!
Good Luck
John
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"
Cliff,
I have faith in you. Take one of these systems (http://www.spareair.com/) with you though. It will give you a way to breathe while upside down in the swamp if that happens.
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Remember to file a flight plan. It will look better on the investigation report.
.....would 'site of accident' be appropriate in the destination box???
some of you guys sure seem to put words in my mouth! Below is EXACTLY what I said for proposed landing technique! (never said anything about braking hard on 50 foot upslope) never said anything about adding power with tail down on that 50 foot soft sand upslope) Here is exactly what I said:
i'm thinking land at the waters edge - with full flaps - as I get to the top of the beach (end of the 50 feet) pull my tail up and bring my flaps up so I can get on the brakes. If I hit the beach at 40 mph - I can't see things being that bad! The 6 foot rise should blead off alot of speed!
__________________
having walked it and having landed on some upslope runways before - I don't see this particular landing as being outside of my abilities. How about some bets on how much land I have left over after I land and get out? I bet I can land it and still have 80 feet left over! I'll bring my tape messure and leave the video running while I measure it!
Cliff in Maine
Which side up?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Should the weather gods smile at me I have hopes of crossing the VT border into NY sometime on the morning of June 21st after an evening of testing the waters by sleeping in Petersburg NY and having my exit papers checked.....TC, you coming with us??
Cliff
My only suggestion would be to try to find a spot elsewhere that has a 6 foot rise over 50 foot similar to the spot you are going to land on. And get the feel on it before you try it on a no go around landing. You'd be amazed at the feeling of topping a rise and becoming airborne with no forward speed. ( and there is a 50/50 chance you won't nail the airspeed perfectly and do exactly that)
The good news is if you do, and nail the next arrival perfectly there wont be much forward momentum.
Brian
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
Cliff, we have one of those at Griffin's Field in Levant. Ask Larry G. about it!I suggest you practice there first..... JP
Last edited by JP; 04-26-2012 at 10:01 AM.
Cliff,
Here's the simple truth. If you aren't capable of landing on the 230' flat spot you certainly aren't capable of landing on the 280' area that includes a 50' ramp @ 12% grade. The 230' flat landing is way easier and is how any qualified pilot would choose to land, except any qualified pilot would prefer the 600'+ direction and wouldn't consider the 230' way unless the wind dictated it. It really is as simple as that.
Is sand involved? Ever applied even moderate brakes on sand? If you land on a 230' sand area you'd better be slow because your brakes will not be your friend.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks