Well got to replacing my exhaust system on the cub (because wear and tear and a couples of crack) and i decided to go with the sutton system for it simplicity and weight ,any tip and trick to share ?
Well got to replacing my exhaust system on the cub (because wear and tear and a couples of crack) and i decided to go with the sutton system for it simplicity and weight ,any tip and trick to share ?
I have not done so yet as I have not had the Sutton exhaust off since I learned of this, but I'm told that mouse milk should be used in all the ball joints. It's supposed to help reduce cracking.
Ron
Thats a good idea never though of lubricating the joint ,is mouse milk resist heat that much or high temp antiseize would be better?
'Yer gonna be PO'd when you look in the classifieds!
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
that's usually my luck when I ordered my new mill....Originally Posted by NimpoCub
'Yer gonna be PO'd when you look in the classifieds!
You're not alone, just paid full retail myself!
Anyone else have one for sale for that price, I will even pay the postage.doug
The advantage of buying it new is that you don't have to pay for the STC paperwork again and also you will get incredible support from Brian Sutton!
sj
"Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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Beaver18, It is a pretty straight forward installation. Biggest challenge is putting the hole in the bottom cowl. A posterboard pattern in place of the bottom cowl works well. Saw one installation with a big hole cut in the bottom cowl with a cover plate installed around the tail pipe. It works well but they did not install nut plates which makes it a pain to get to the nuts on the back side.
I don't see anything but the muffler in the ad.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
And if the muffler dosent have the heat ribbons in it will you freeze to death in the winter???
If you live in a cold climate.
Sent one out recently to have the heat ribbons installed. Great to deal with both Brian Sutton and Dawley.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
I've been thinking about the Sutton system for a while now,, basically wondering if it really is improving performance of the engine?? Has anyone put a few before and after figures together??
Ouapetec, here is an interesting read http://www.wemakeyoufly.com/main_wha...s.asp#story001
All these dyno test are interesting. They show the max torque and rpm at over 2600 rpm on an AEIO-360 that is ported. I wonder what the difference is at normal take-off rpms on an O-320 150/160 hp engine? Having installed some of the Sutton exhaust systems I have seen a slight rpm increase. One big advantage to me however is the simplicity of it being under the engine instead of on the firewall and it's light weight. Makes maintenance a lot easier in my opinion.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
My guess is it burns 4-5 hours each annual to do the AD inspection on the old exhaust. Plus, every time you remove and re-install the old exhaust it seams to leak.
Saving that headache is another reason to consider the Sutton.
Tim
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
????????????????????4-5 hours???
with atlees schroud..
3 hose clamps, 5 nuts, yank, look, reverse....
Mike, The AD calls out removing one side exhaust stack and looking into the muffler.
68-05-01 PIPER: Amendment 39-726.
Applies to Piper J3, J4, J5, PA-11, PA-12, PA-14, PA-15, PA-16, PA-17, PA-18, PA-19,
PA-20, PA-22, and PA-24 type airplanes, except PA-24-400 and PA-24-260 aircraft serial numbers
24-4783, 24-4804 and subsequent.
Compliance required as indicated.
(a) For all airplanes except Models J3, J4, J5, PA-11 and those referenced in paragraphs (i) and (j), which have exhaust mufflers with 950 or more hours time in service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) within the next 50 hours time in service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 50 hours time in service from the last inspection.
(b) For all airplanes except Models J3, J4, J5, PA-11 and those referenced in paragraphs (i) and (j), which have exhaust mufflers with less than 950 hours time in service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) within the next 50 hours time in service, and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 100 hours time in service from the last inspection. After the exhaust muffler has accumulated 950 hours time in service, comply with the inspection requirements of paragraph (a).
(c) For all Models J3, J4, J5, and PA-11 airplanes which have exhaust mufflers with 950 or more hours' time in service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) within the next 50 hours' time in service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 50 hours time in service from the last inspection.
(d) For all Models J3, J4, J5, and PA-11 airplanes which have exhaust mufflers with less than 950 hours' time in service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) prior to the accumulation of 1000 hours' time in service and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 50 hours' time in service.
(e) Inspect in accordance with paragraph (f), and paragraph (g) if applicable, the engine exhaust muffler and shroud assembly (including the internal baffle tube and tail pipe), carburetor heat shroud and air duct, support braces, clamps and brackets, exhaust stacks and manifolds. Do not alter those mufflers incorporating an internal baffle tube to remove the tube without prior FAA approval.
(Piper Service Letter No. 324B describes the critical areas.)
(f) Remove muffler assembly, disconnect air ducts, stacks, and shrouds as necessary, and visually inspect exterior and interior surfaces with a probe light and mirror for signs of cracks, corrosion, burn-throughs, heat damage, collapsed stack, or weld separations. For carburetor type engines, special attention should be given to the exhaust stack under the carburetor heat shroud. Except during the initial inspection, the muffler need not be removed from the airplane, provided visual inspection with probe light and mirror is made through the muffler tail pipe outlet and one end of the muffler at the stack connection.
(g) If the inspection specified in paragraph (f) shows that the exhaust stacks and internal baffle tube are in good condition, but there are areas inside the muffler which cannot be adequately inspected with a probe light and mirror, accomplish one of the following:
(1) Accomplish a submerged pressure check of the muffler and exhaust stack at 10 psi air pressure.
(2) Conduct a ground test using a carbon monoxide indicator by heading the airplane into the wind, warming the engine on the ground, advancing the throttle to full static r.p.m. with cabin heat valves open, and taking readings of the heated airstream inside the cabin at each outlet (including rear seat heat outlet, if installed). Appropriate sampling procedures applicable to the particular indicator must be followed. If carbon monoxide concentration exceeds .005 percent or if a dangerous reading is obtained on an indicator not calibrated in percentages, inspect in accordance with (f), and perform a submerged pressure check of the muffler and exhaust stack at 10 psi air pressure before further flight.
(3) Close and secure cabin heat valves at the firewall until a complete muffler inspection in accordance with paragraph (f) is accomplished.
(h) Replace or repair parts found to have the defects listed in paragraph (f) before further flight, and thereafter comply with the inspection requirements of paragraph (b) or (d), whichever is applicable. Make welding repairs in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 4 3.13-1 or an FAA-approved equivalent. Pressure-check mufflers and stacks that are repair-welded before reinstallation. (Care should be exercised when reinstalling the exhaust system components to prevent distortion or preloading of parts.)
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
How long does it take you, Mike? Original muffler?
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
yep thats my luck too but if it you dont have the paper to go with it its no good in the certified world ,and i bascaly went for the simplicity and the weight improvement over the maybe performance gain ,plus the noise in the cabin stay within acceptable limit i would hate to gain extra noise i do have some zulu headset and i dont want to go with more and i had the heat ribbon instaled it kind of get cool here too ,Brian is a great guy to deal with i told him what i had on the aircraft and if i needed to modified anything and everyting was ok
thats what I said/meant by the 5 nuts..... and yank... the one side..
Yea, then the stud pulls out of the head or numerous other snafus. Never seems to go that easy.
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
The baffle in a cub muffler is it actually for noise or back pressure? I still havent decided which way to look at it.
I think the baffle was originally designed as a spark arrestor and over time it "became a muffler" I'm not sure about this but it's what I've been told
Clint Busenitz
What is the difference between the Sutton system and the Atlee "Hot rod" muffler? I am thinking of changing my out at next annual.
Atlee's Hot Rod muffler is a new stock type muffler with no flame tube inside and a 3" tail pipe opposed to the original 2". You use your existing cross over/down pipes from the existing system. The Sutton exhaust is a complete system that moves the muffler under the engine, freeing up the crowded firewall. You do have to cut a hole in you bottom cowl. More info and pictures here under "Exhaust Conversion". http://www.propilotsinc.com/
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Thanks Steve, Any agreement as to which has the better performance/ best overall/ pros/cons? or am I opening up a new contoversy?
I have friends who have both. LEE sytems, too. When it came time for me to improve my own exhaust I went with a Hot Rod. Doller to value its the best money I've spent on that airplane.
Ditto. Needed very minor trimming on the lower cowl for the pipe. Other than that, it was a direct bolt on replacement. BTW, anyone need a stock Atlee Muffler in decent shape?
Mike
No AD with the Hot Rod muffler? correct?
I may have considered the Hotrod but my crossover were at the end of there life too and noise in the cabin was a concern too , and the horsepower is not to much of an issue i just can't get in shorter than what i can takeoff in on float or wheel.
So here are my number from my aircraft, 160 hp,stock exhaust,oat 52 ,press 30.15, max static (8243 prop) 2410 rpm, heat output (at box) 255 f, max rpm in climb at 70 mph 2510, after instalation of new Sutton, oat 60, press 29.95, max static 2450, heat output 325 f and by felling look like way more flow,climb at 70 mph 2560.
My opinion:
Leading Edge: heavy, expensive and a lot of tubing wrapping around that tends to get in the way when working on the engine. Appears to make more power but people at higher elevations haven't seen an increase. No airworthiness directive. $3795
Sutton: small, light weight and simple. Opens up the back of the engine/firewall area. Have seen a slight increase 40/50 rpm in static rpm over stock. Requires a hole be put in the bottom of the cowl for the tail pipe. No airworthiness directive. $1750
Atlee Dodge/Performance Air Motive Hot Rod Muffler: Uses existing pipes, enlarged tail pipe, louder, simple as stock. Does give an increase in static rpm. No airworthiness directive. $1185
Steve Pierce
"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Henry Ford
Great info Steve. I keep reading that the Hot Rod muffler is louder. Is that outside noise, cockpit noise or both? On a side note, the CC tow planes used at the Air Force Academy use LEE and I'm told they have had very good results with them. That is a larger chunk of change when comparing the different systems.
I recently changed my regular Atlee muffler to the Hot Rod. It is slightly louder than the stock muffler, but I don't find it to be all that much louder. I wear a standard DC headset (not noise canceling) and it doesn't seem any louder in flight with it than the stock system. Without a headset, it is noticeably louder (sort of like a Harley compared to a Honda). My neighbors haven't complained about the noise, but they do say that it sounds a little different.
Mike
The Hot Rod muffler is louder than a stock Supercub muffler. The place I notice it most is in the tie down while idling for warm-up, before I put the helmet on. As far as operational noise? I don't notice it much when I'm flying. I can tell the Cubs that have Hot Rods from stock Cubs when they fly over at cruise power when I'm on the ground. Compared to the 206s and Beavers I don't find them offensive. As far as neighbors near the strip? When I operate my Cessna and there are people near the strip they all cover their ears. Nobody does that when I'm in my -12. They didn't cover up before the Hot Rod and they don't now. If the airport sees any long prop/big bore operations the Cub is a non event whether it has a Hot Rod or not. Even with Cubs it seems prop noise is more prevalent at take-off than engine noise. At least for those with strong engines and long, flat props.
People out looking for something to bitch about will always be successful. Some of them will cite airplane noise. The Hot Rod muffler isn't the problem.
Last edited by sierra bravo; 04-15-2012 at 05:42 PM.
I found that the Sutton is quieter in the cabin than my stock unit ,it has lower throatier tone and for some reason the engine seem to vibrate less maybe a better more equal combustion.
Hard to quantify what changes are specifically attributable to a new system when the old one was sick.
Did you see any change in CHT? Just curious.
Steve P - Thank you for the pictures and muffler post. Excellent informational post.
Bill
Very Blessed.
See my muffler was not in that bad of a shape ( flame tube not all distorted )but the cross overs had been repaired a couple of time ( but no ding or restriction just cracked )and the shroud had vibrated to the point i needed hose clamp at every end of it to hold it on and CHT went down a bit but i dont have exact #.
I wasn't being critical. It's impossible for any of us to provide accurate product reports because we don't have a well established baseline to judge the new product against. That's true for Sutton, LEE, and Hot Rod systems. The same system will not perform identically on any two engines, either. Pay your money and take your chances. I hope everybody's happy with what they choose.
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