I thinking of buying a C180 but it has a run out 0-470J. (CORE) Does any body have a STC and Engine mount for the R,S conversion. I want to buy a TSIO-520C core and build up and do the P PONK conversion 0-470-50. I will need a new mount and ??? Any comments and ideas??
Thanks Brandon
You're sure of that? I think numerous people have used the original mount that is unique to the first three years of 180's when using the Pponk engine.build up and do the P PONK conversion 0-470-50. I will need a new mount
Last edited by 180Marty; 03-18-2012 at 08:07 PM.
Brandon -
Look here - http://www.scootairllc.com/website/c180r.htm
Juan
What year is the 180. You can use either an early mount or later mount. With an early mount you will need to change the legs because the pads (lords) are on a different plane. But you can still use the rest of the engine mount. With the early set up the engine is essentially hanging on rubber, with the later style it is resting on top of rubber.
The more critical piece will be which intake / airbox you have, as this will dictate which mount exactly you need. The latest mounts have the fwd cross member on the opposite side of the intake. Fwd instead of aft.
If you have one of the earliest 180s '53-'55 and want to take advantage of the later style mount, you will want to look for a 'K' mount. It has the late style pads / legs, but the fwd cross member is on the correct side of the intake. This is a single year engine mount, but I believe AWI has the jig to build one from any reasonable core. This mount also works with the dual mufflers (even the large after market set up). If you want pics of this arrangement send me a PM.
Take care, Rob
Have you looked at Texas Skyways? http://www.txskyways.com/cessna-180.htm I got my IO-550 conversion from them for my !85. They are terrific people to do business with. Take a look at their new engine mount for a 180 and various engine options.
N1PA
[QUOTE=Rob;531127]What year is the 180. You can use either an early mount or later mount. With an early mount you will need to change the legs because the pads (lords) are on a different plane. But you can still use the rest of the engine mount. With the early set up the engine is essentially hanging on rubber, with the later style it is resting on top of rubber.
The more critical piece will be which intake / airbox you have, as this will dictate which mount exactly you need. The latest mounts have the fwd cross member on the opposite side of the intake. Fwd instead of aft.
If you have one of the earliest 180s '53-'55 and want to take advantage of the later style mount, you will want to look for a 'K' mount. It has the late style pads / legs, but the fwd cross member is on the correct side of the intake. This is a single year engine mount, but I believe AWI has the jig to build one from any reasonable core. This mount also works with the dual mufflers (even the large after market set up). If you want pics of this arrangement send me a PM.
Take care, Rob[/QUOTE
It is a 55. I'm a little leery of the J engine. It seems like there is just a lot of parts $$$ needed out side of the engine change. Exhaust, intake, manifold, engine mount and new brackets?? . If I understand correctly the early mount will work I will just need the different engine mount brackets that are bolted on to the engine?
Thanks, Brandon
I
Unbolt the mounts on the J and put them on the 520 crankcase---they'll fit. Your induction that the carb attaches to should bolt on the 520 also.Marks_P_Ponk_engine.jpg This was Mark Hawkins Pponk early 180 before it was lost.If I understand correctly the early mount will work I will just need the different engine mount brackets that are bolted on to the engine?
You can pull the mounts off of the J and mount them to the new case. You will also need to reuse the J induction system and have the flanges on the exhaust changed to the 4 bolt stlye.
Can't you build the 0-470-50 from the J core? The new cylinders will have the new flanges but for about $2K you can buy a complete exhaust system including muffler. The rest of the adaptation would be simplified. 5 minutes on the phone with Steve Knopp will answer all your questions about mounts, intakes, exhausts, etc.
The other thing to consider with the mount question is applicability for three blade props.
J can not be Pponked.
SBs advice is sound, if you are interested in a Pponk Steve Knopp will be your best resource for information. Beyond that, yes you are understanding correctly, you can use your existing mount with later model legs on the engine. If your mount needs refurbishing (or work at all) you would do better to use it as a core on a later style mount. A look at each ones Lord mounts will end any question in your mind. Regardless of what anyone (including myself) tells you.
The J core is not a candidate, you can confirm this with Steve. He (and others) will take the J as a trade, as there is still a decent market for them. The other pieces you will need to change are the propeller, exhaust, carb, and the baffles. If your J is in need of rebuild, it is likely that all of these need attention, so the cost of using the IO-520 parts instead is mitigated....
The only props on the Pponk STC for a 180 are the 3 blade Mac 401, and the Hartzell 3 blade scimitar. MT has their own STC to add on to a Pponk, and Steve Knopp has recently tested both of those options (as have I on a '53). All 4 are good props on the Pponk, and each has a specific strong point. Doing research will get you a better fit for your mission. That difference could be small or huge depending on the prop you choose and your intended mission. The C-66, and C-58 two blade Macs can be field approved to this engine / ship combination. Mine was... IMHO (and Steve's I'm sure) you will be leaving power on the table, there are also lighter and faster choices STC'd, so outside of cost, there is no valid reason to go this route.
It IS possible to to use your exhaust with new flanges on it..... Your exhaust is a full 3/8" smaller at the stacks than the IO-520's exhaust ports, and your exhaust has likely been on your engine through it's TBO. For the cost of rebuilding your exhaust you can have Knisely's build one up that is appropriately sized both at the stacks and through the cans... Why hang horsepower on and then choke it down? Your engine will run cooler, and gain slight performance going this route. If you feel compelled to throw money at it for an even better looking choice you could have Dane (LEES) build you one that is (tuned.
It is also possible to cut and adapt your baffles, again, probably time and money ahead to build new ones. They will look and perform better.
Your carb *may* be a good core, but not likely. You can check on the #s. If not you will need a core, the good news is that the engine you will be hunting down for core will likely have a carb that is a candidate.
Mark's airplane pictured above was a good one, and had many morphing stages after that picture. Including mount and exhaust. Rest in Peace Mark.
This is what it looks like with the 'K' mount and an exhaust that has stacks sized to the 520, the old muffler shrouds are for fitting purposes only. You can't zoom the pic of Marks engine enough to see the engine hanging on the mounts (but you can see that on yours) You should be able to zoom this one enough to see the engine resing on the pads
engr.jpg
BTW, if you are on the fence about a Pponk, I suggest you not fly one...
Take care, Rob
Last edited by Rob; 03-19-2012 at 10:22 AM. Reason: added pic
Guys who like to throw money at Skywagons tend to prefer Seaplanes West engine mounts. I don't know what makes them so popular but their reputation is very good in the Skywagon community.
http://www.seaplaneswest.com/enginemounts.html
The pic is my 180J with the 0-520 on the original factory seaplane mount. The new exhaust is by Acorn. Look how different it is from Rob's. Confused yet?
008.jpg
Last edited by sierra bravo; 03-19-2012 at 11:20 AM.
Davis Aviation 423-653-1113 www.davisaviationservices.net has a stand alone heavy duty engine mount STC for all of the Cessna 180 aircraft. The early model aircraft tend to add work and parts to make the installation costly but it can be done. Provide me some details and I will be happy to help you. dasi@naxs.net Thanks Donna Jones
Hi Stewart. When I did the Pponk, I looked at the Seaplanes West mount route as the Lord mount pads for their installation are sizeable and many do talk about the resulting smoothness. The seaplanes west mount however adds several reinforcing cross pieces that make other original components, including the standard exhaust unusable. The upper crossbar on the frame seemed like a trouble with accessories as well. I decided to refurb my frame with some new tubes welded in for a few hundred dollars. If anyone doesn't have the vertical's for the "seaplane mount", a reminder these are easily added. Atlee Dodge does well with any of this.
Steve Knopp put on a Seaplane's West mount, but sounds like he had a lot of difficulty with the install. He offered to do anyone else's for just a few hundred hours labor if they were interested... He does have an interesting way of leaving the early model cabin heat firewall fitting in place with the seaplane mount. He has the vertical tube grommeted and the duct work encases it. I should have taken a pic. Field approval.
Matt
Matt,
Thanks for the feedback. Atlee repaired my mount and 10+ years later it's still doing well. On that topic, a friend has a '58 or '59 180 with an IO-520 that has had recurring cracks in one place on the engine mount. Two years ago he engineered his own tube additions and got it approved with assistance of a DER. It fixed the problem. He wasn't interested in aftermarket mounts and the work it would have taken to utilize one. I walk a different path. I don't need to know how. I need to know who.
I hope all is well with your family.
DID I say, I Love this website!!! I Love this website...
Thanks for all this info. I think I should just buy the plane and then I will be in the pool so to speak...
Brandon
At the start of this thread you mention the R and S models. FWIW, the R and S crank are not candidates for a Pponk conversion. That information is in case you were looking to do the R/S conversion first with the Pponk as a thought for later on down the road.
Take care, Rob
my neighbor has a 185 mount in great condition if you are interested, give me a number and i will pass it on.
he is looking for $ to work on his plane...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
I also have a 185 mount. Mine is in better shape and cheaper than Tango's buddy's.
Since you all bring up the 185 mounts... As mechanics do you find a true advantage to the swing down mount of the 185 vs the 180 mount? Is that what the mount is designed to do, similar to the swing out radial engine mounts, or is there some other design intent for what appear to be pivot points on the lower frame? When I had tach cable problems several years ago, I removed and reinstalled the oil pump housing which has the right angle drive for the tach (the little roll pin in the drive had snapped). I was wishing there was some way to get more room to work behind the engine at that time, but in reality, would any of the mechanics have gone to the trouble of disconnecting cables, etc and swinging the engine down on the mounts? Again, if that's what it was designed for... Thanks for the insight.
I like the tilt down mount which comes with the 185. Other than when changing the engine I have not needed to tilt it. I sure do welcome the ability to do so should I need to change something like a fuel pump. I bought a Seaplanes West mount. It does not have the tilt provision which I did not know when I ordered it. Frankly I was P****d when it arrived. I got a field approval to modify it to a swing down which I did before it was installed. It also didn't clear the exhaust by enough.
N1PA
I beleive the purpose was to change a fuel pump. It is also advantageous for changing starter drives.
If one pays retail for the lower mount "lugs" or 'fittings" or "pivots" that bolt thru the firewall, that is a concern as well.
If I had a fuel pump behind my engine, I'd think seriously about having the 185 mount installed.
I wanted to mention.......call Davis.......Davis Aviation 423-653-1113 www.davisaviationservices.net has a stand alone heavy duty engine mount STC for all of the Cessna 180 aircraft. The early model aircraft tend to add work and parts to make the installation costly but it can be done. Provide me some details and I will be happy to help you. dasi@naxs.net Thanks Donna Jones
.....lots of knowlwdge, expertise, and engineering data those folks hold!!!!! D
ya, NOT fun changing starer drives on a regular mount, but It can be done.. just barely....
Is that why the firewall looks a little flexed on my 54?NOT fun changing starer drives on a regular mount, but It can be done.. just barely....
EXACTLY, requires a special tool.........(2x4)Originally Posted by 180Marty
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