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Thread: Olibuilt 's New Cub project

  1. #401
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Going well. But I miss the fabrication part... Need another project.
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  2. #402
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    Hoping for more flight before installing the "new" skis.....



  3. #403
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    Awesome.....
    FEAR IS A REACTION, COURAGE IS A DECISION

  4. #404
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    Cold winter is here. Perfect time for a small project.

    I'm building new 3x3 elevators.

    Hope they will make a noticeable difference.




    IMG_9021.JPG

  5. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Going well. But I miss the fabrication part... Need another project.

    i was starting to worry about you. Hey, you and swingle need to team up for a episode of something. were starvin.
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  6. #406

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    Oli, what did you do, hoping for improvement?

  7. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Cold winter is here. Perfect time for a small project.

    I'm building new 3x3 elevators.

    Hope they will make a noticeable difference.




    IMG_9021.JPG

    Hey Oli -- Are you fab'ing the channel (somehow?) or are you using a standard Piper channel for the "ribs" of the elevator?

    (I need to do this exact same project this winter but have not yet started in earnest...)
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  8. #408
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    Yes Mr. KingBrown. I'm hoping for some landing distances improvement.



    Motosix: I have bent some triangle shape steel strips in the brake. You can see the 4' brake in the left of the picture.
    I can upload some pics to share with you if you like.

  9. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    Motosix: I have bent some triangle shape steel strips in the brake. You can see the 4' brake in the left of the picture.
    I can upload some pics to share with you if you like.
    Yes, please!

    (This thread is one of my favorites. You need anther big project so we can watch the progress...)
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  10. #410
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Oli, Are you running out of elevator authority? If you are able to fly slow enough for the tail wheel to touch down before the main gear your elevators are big enough. If you want to shorten your landing distance look at increasing your flap down travel.
    N1PA

  11. #411
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I already have about 65 degrees flaps after deflection. But I realized that the plane could fly slower at 50 degrees of flap.
    65 is real good when I need to land in a tight spot.








    Here is a video on an absolute no wind day. About 2 degrees Celsius, 500 ASL, 400 pounds in the plane (but the big 8" gas ice auger was in one piece behind the passenger seat, which helps).


    I feel like I may need a little more elevator authority.


    Go at 40 seconds


  12. #412
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    Oli. Look at :53 seconds. You are not using your stabilizer trim during landing. If you will use your trim, you will not need as much elevator as the nose up trim will provide a lot of nose up force. If you want to fly slower I could make a suggestion for a wing tip change.
    N1PA
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  13. #413

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    These type of projects are brought on by a long cold and dark Canadian winter, probably made worse when you like to squeeze performance and love to build. IMO the larger elevators definitely won't hurt but at some point you may have to increase the size of your rudder as well to keep more effectiveness power off at slow speed. I would also suggest a wing tip change to increase performance.
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  14. #414

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    What would y’all change on the wingtips?
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  15. #415
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Have Oli show us a close picture of the tips from behind first.
    N1PA

  16. #416

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    The hoerner tips will out perform the flat plate, more efficient, could do some testing with the tip fence to see if that helps. My thoughts are it would but that's only my opinion.

  17. #417

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    Better flaps would make the biggest impact.
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  18. #418

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    I would agree with Skywagon. Using full nose up trim also gives a safety advantage when braking hard. It feels unnatural to some because you are holding stick forward instead of back as you approach. Most cub trimmed full nose up will require quite a bit of forward stick pressure until you are very slow, with little or no back pressure for the flair. The advantage of this is that now you are creating more drag at the tail and you can add more power to compensate. More power means more air over wing and tail. You can get the same drag effect with full nose down trim and pulling the stick back but as you land and transition to hard braking now you have given away some tail downforce that may prevent you from going on your nose. I would dial this in slowly over several landings until you get the feel for it. I would say a bigger tail will help with lifting the tail up when you are heavy if that is an issue, but trim may also solve that. Also try not to drag it in, a power on steep approach to a tail wheel low landing, should give you your best results. I would also agree that wing mods, flaps/tips will be what really helps. Your plane is already in the top 5 percent when it comes to performance so gains will be hard won.
    DENNY
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  19. #419
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I could buy some wingtips. The small Dakota Cub or CarbonConcept would be my choices. But this mean I would need to install another full rib at the tip, and then the wing tip.


    Here are my "temporary" wing tip fences:

    IMG_9034.JPG

    IMG_9035.JPG

    IMG_9036.JPG

  20. #420
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the comments.



    "It feels unnatural to some because you are holding stick forward instead of back as you approach"

    That is my exact feeling. But it is now clear, after watching my video, that it should be trimmed full nose up.




    Middle trim for this guy too:


  21. #421
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    Oli, How is that tip plate held on? What does that tip rib look like? Do your spars go to the tip with the full height? My suggestion is that you make a full sized airfoil shape extension of about a foot or a little more. Attach it to the ends of the spars and to the tip rib. Then put whatever you want for a tip on that. You're a clever fellow, you could probably knock a pair out in a couple of days. You could gain as much as 300 pounds of lift with this.
    N1PA
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  22. #422
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    The actual wing "tips" are held by screws into the last stamped rib. Spars are full length, 17' long, to the tip.


    I like my aileron right to the tip of the wing. I don't want an "extended" wing.







    But a small wingtip would be a good idea if you think the weight-lift-drag ratio is good.

  23. #423

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    He is not worried about hard braking on touchdown. I wish I could touch down the tail as soft as you guys do, my poor tail spring takes a beating when my transition to the mains is off. For tips how about the older droop tips like Jerry Bur runs?
    DENNY

  24. #424

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    Denny, check out the T3 tail wheel set up!!

  25. #425

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    It is nice for absorbing the shock but kills the AOA too much on take off.
    DENNY
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  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    The actual wing "tips" are held by screws into the last stamped rib. Spars are full length, 17' long, to the tip.

    I like my aileron right to the tip of the wing. I don't want an "extended" wing.

    But a small wingtip would be a good idea if you think the weight-lift-drag ratio is good.
    Oli, Of course it is your plane, whatever you prefer is the right thing.

    The higher pressure air under the wing flows outward around the tip forming a spiral twisting action. This air pushes downward on the top of the most outboard trailing section of wing with unstable air. As a result when the aileron goes to the tip as yours does, the outboard few inches becomes ineffective. When you extend the wing the amount which I have suggested your aileron becomes more effective. This is in addition to the five or so extra square feet of lifting surface plus the improved performance of a higher aspect ratio wing. The higher aspect ratio will reduce stalling speed, increase rate of climb and in some cases increase cruise speeds in addition to improved high altitude performance.

    The plates which you have on your tips would be more effective if they extended below the wing, effectively acting like a dam preventing the outward flow of air.

    I did this on one of my airplanes with the idea that if I wasn't happy with it, it could be easily removed. 35 years later the extensions are still on the plane. You mentioned that you were itchy for a project, well here is one.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 01-14-2019 at 07:11 AM.
    N1PA
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  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    It is nice for absorbing the shock but kills the AOA too much on take off.
    DENNY
    It will compress when you rotate giving you 80% of your AOA back.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  28. #428

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    Oli you have a very good performing cub and you know how to fly it! Do you think slats are the best wing mod
    for slowest flight and slowest touchdowns?
    Denny, when we installed a T3 on the S7 the AOA actually improved a bit. Should be the same with a cub(?)
    T3 worth every nickel.

  29. #429
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    Oli,

    If you’re thinking about an experimental wingtip, maybe you could incorporate a hoerner-style underside profile?





    You’d gain not only the additional actual wing square footage, but also some effective area as well. That should help you slow down some more. Might also help increase your cruise due to the decreased wing loading.
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  30. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Oli, Of course it is your plane, whatever you prefer is the right thing.

    The higher pressure air under the wing flows outward around the tip forming a spiral twisting action. This air pushes downward on the top of the most outboard trailing section of wing with unstable air. As a result when the aileron goes to the tip as yours does, the outboard few inches becomes ineffective. When you extend the wing the amount which I have suggested your aileron becomes more effective. This is in addition to the five or so extra square feet of lifting surface plus the improved performance of a higher aspect ratio wing. The higher aspect ratio will reduce stalling speed, increase rate of climb and in some cases increase cruise speeds in addition to improved high altitude performance.

    The plates which you have on your tips would be more effective if they extended below the wing, effectively acting like a dam preventing the outward flow of air.

    I did this on one of my airplanes with the idea that if I wasn't happy with it, it could be easily removed. 35 years later the extensions are still on the plane. You mentioned that you were itchy for a project, well here is one.
    ?
    just curious as to how many inches down you feel the fence would need to be

  31. #431

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    i would say only a couple inches, just enough to stop the boundary layer.
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  32. #432

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    at least with only that much you can still see when you turn.
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  33. #433

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    Cubdriver2
    You start loosing ground as soon as that tailwheel touches, it is not much but usually but it is noticeable. The trick is to leave the ground with letting it touch. That is why guys are pulling the wheel completely and putting on scrub pads.
    DENNY

  34. #434

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    Skywagon
    That is great information about the aileron. I could not figure out why the Cessna guys never complained about the Wing-X mod and aileron.
    DENNY

  35. #435

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Cubdriver2
    You start loosing ground as soon as that tailwheel touches, it is not much but usually but it is noticeable. The trick is to leave the ground with letting it touch. That is why guys are pulling the wheel completely and putting on scrub pads.
    DENNY
    That was for cubdriver2. Hopefully he understands cause it’s Greek to me lol.

  36. #436

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    RoddyM
    I looked at some S7 pics, Pretty sure your spring is not off a pa18, it looks pretty tall. With the same wheel the T3 will set the tail taller than even a 4 leaf pa18 spring set. For fly in stuff I use a 3 leaf with stock tailwheel, for off-field stuff it is a 4 leaf with a big tailwheel.
    DENNY

    EDIT; not enough coffee this morning, just trying to keep replys straight.
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  37. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt View Post
    But a small wingtip would be a good idea if you think the weight-lift-drag ratio is good.
    6E88AEDB-AF7F-42E5-9FDB-97A5CEA89AD4.jpg
    Oli, As has been said, adding wing area is as good as your gonna get for adding extra lift. I added 2’ carbon fiber extensions, slowed the roll rate a bit ,So I incorporated spoiler boards to get it back. Just under 20 square ft. Of extra area was added , Made an awesome difference on the slow end. Is an easy add on with limited moding required, Especially since your spar runs the length of your wing.
    Next, Obviously big honking flaps will make a difference on the drag for them slow approaches!
    Last edited by flyrite; 01-14-2019 at 02:10 PM.
    FEAR IS A REACTION, COURAGE IS A DECISION
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  38. #438
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your advice.




    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    As a result when the aileron goes to the tip as yours does, the outboard few inches becomes ineffective.My suggestion is that you make a full sized airfoil shape extension of about a foot or a little more. Attach it to the ends of the spars and to the tip rib. Then put whatever you want for a tip on that.
    My plane is already very tight in my hangar... I cannot add another feet per wing, unless it was quick attach ?

    But you guys have sold me on wing tips. The one I have were suppose to be temporary.






    Let say I think my ailerons are effective enough, not being use at slow speed anyways.
    ? Does a small regular Hoerner tip would do about the same, with all the way to the wing tip


    Like this small Dakota

    IMG_7310-768x5122.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  39. #439
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Oli, Take a look at Backcountry's wing tips. http://www.supercub.com/ They would give you a bit more wing area without extending the span very much. The extra area aft would help with controlling the swirling vortex at the trailing edge.
    N1PA
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  40. #440

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    or take the lip off the top and put it on the bottom. thats if im understanding right? or both?

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