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Thread: Air France 447

  1. #1
    Seaworthy's Avatar
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    Air France 447

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...ce-447-6611877 Before you read this--take an extra dose of blood pressure medication.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/ma...pagewanted=all
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  2. #2
    Iflylower's Avatar
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    Bet those guys could type a mean ILS....

    So many factors here for the industry. Likely sims since ab initio training. Can't replicate stalls very well. Probably could've used a lot more MCA flight in the region of reverse command.

    Fly by wire joysticks where the opposite pilot has no idea about the other's control inputs. We always say the guy holding the stick is the "dumbest guy in the cockpit." the pilot monitoring or relief pilot can most easily see the big picture since half his brain isn't also articulating the plane.

    Interesting note about "alternate law" in fly by wire. The airplane won't allow a stall in the pilots mind. However, in this case of degradation, or load/system shed, it did. Too many rules/laws to remember while chips down.

    There is too much dependence on autopilot in the industry. Skills of hand flying degrade over time. I'd like to see an industry wide swing back towards hand flying some of the time. If the only time you hand fly is during an emergency and with system or information degredation and high stress - it ain't gonna be pretty. IMHO, best pilots often switch from full automation, to partial auto, to mostly manual, to full manual and practice each consistently. It does take effort, one can't
    be lazy. Sadly, that very thing is against some company's rules.

    Everytime they make planes, crash or idiot proof, someone will find a better way to crash one. What's the saying "they keep making better idiots." No disrespect to these or other pilots. This is true in a lot of ways in our lives.

    There were so many external factors clouding judgement or possibly pushing them to react someway we wouldn't expect. An example is an empty NW 727 that stalled in from 30,00 in the late '70's. Pitots iced. A/s acting like an altimeter. Stall shaker confused for overspeed. Kept pulling back to stop overspeed. In their minds an empty airplane explained 25 degree deck angles and overspeed...

    Lastly, a deep stall in a sweptwing can be real ugly to recover. Sadly, doing everything right in recovery can take an easy 10,000 ft or more. With a decent track of 41 degrees, the plane would have had to nose what, 60 plus degrees to get flow over the wing? You eat up altitude in a hurry pointing down that far in an airliner. I say almost unrecoverable by 20,000 or so feet, depending on how deep the stall.

    Just my opinion and things we discuss. Thank god aviation is so safe. Let's make it better.
    If you're lucky enough to fly, you're lucky enough

    "There are three things in life that people like to stare at: a flowing stream, a crackling fire and a Zamboni clearing the ice." Charlie Brown

  3. #3
    mvivion's Avatar
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    And, consider the number of allegedly intelligent people arguing assiduously for the use of UAS (pilotless aircraft) in the national airspace system. In this case the pilots didn't do anything to improve the situation the automation left them in, tragically.

    Every time someone starts talking unmanned aircraft, my first question is: Would you like one of these things flying over YOUR house? Consider the miracle on the Hudson....and what that would have looked like had the airplane been unmanned.

    MTV

  4. #4
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Sounds like they needed to fly more Cubs....


    Is it me, or does it seem these type of accidents usually boil down to ignoring the principals of flight we learned in our first lessons: airspeed... airspeed... Nose down for airspeed...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  5. #5

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    Consider the miracle on the Hudson....and what that would have looked like had the airplane been unmanned.

    MTV[/QUOTE]

    What would it have looked like if the COMPUTER could NOT control the engine - say an old fashion J85 or similar with mechanical linkage and pilot for brains!....... wonder if it would have made a runway. Not looking for a fight, as I'm sure I preach to the choir - not all advances actually put us ahead.....

    larry
    Last edited by larrym; 12-26-2011 at 01:53 PM. Reason: spelling error

  6. #6

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    I know nothing about large aircraft operations, but considering the cost of these aircraft not to mention the lives on board why don't airlines require unusual attitude and spin training at regular intervals. And by that I don't mean 1 turn spins, I mean real aerobatic rightside up, upside down, Flat spin till you puke training.

  7. #7

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    Just make sure one of the pilots have an IAC sticker on his kitbag before you get on the plane. Serriously though, I think that its a huge FAA attitude problem. Just look at the pilot certification process, you don't even need to spin, and stalls are considered when the buszzer goes! Most CFIs are afraid to stall and spin - and this is in the aircraft population that has most of the stall/spin accidents! Its insane, but sadly true.... We can fix it by putting a placard and a memo out not to get slow! Oh wait - were doing that and it doesn't work too well.
    My son came back from a CAP flight school last summer, he was terrified to spin. I wonder where he got that from! On the next flight in the Skybolt while doing normal aeros, I threw in a spin. He liked it, not knowing what it was. Latter when talking about the flight, I told him thT was a spin - he couldn't believe that is what everyone is so afraid of. (he's 14)

    I'm with you - no better experience to stop it than experience doing it on purpose!

  8. #8
    d.grimm's Avatar
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    In my experience there are a lot of "pilots" out there that
    do the absolute minimum to get by and have no interest
    in new experiences or extra training because "they" think
    they are the best. Huge ego with nothing to back it up.
    Probably more prevelant in "Proffesional" pilots, IMHO.
    Dave

  9. #9
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d.grimm View Post
    In my experience there are a lot of "pilots" out there that
    do the absolute minimum to get by and have no interest
    in new experiences or extra training because "they" think
    they are the best. Huge ego with nothing to back it up.
    Probably more prevelant in "Proffesional" pilots, IMHO.
    Dave
    ...I've seen this........God help them.

  10. #10
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    ...especially the "...ego with nothing to back it up...".

    However, there ARE great jet jocks who fly small a/c at very high-proficiency, as well. Don't throw them all out with the bathwater. There are several on this site. I know several in the ranks of Lake Hood pilots, also.

  11. #11
    Jeffrey Flinn's Avatar
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    Dick sure has a way with planes... and words

    Subject: Well-Known Test Pilot, Dick Rutan Says : EVERY ' ACTUAL PILOT ' Should R-E-A-D THIS . . WHY ? Of Air France 447 's PILOT ERROR AND FATAL CRASH
    A response from Dick Rutan . . on the AIRBUS Air France Crash :

    Hi

    Every " actual " pilot should read this [ crash story below :]


    Two things :

    1. The Airbus computer system mathematical algorithm is designed by a bunch


    computer nerds who have no understanding of aviation. ( that comment is kind. )

    2. The copilots were not even
    ' actual ' pilots . . but from the ' same World ' as

    the computer nerds that designed that flight system. I'll call them "computer nerd

    pilots" who should not be allowed to operate a wheelbarrow.

    This is worst than I thought....the pitot tube ice over was just temporary . .


    Most of the time.....all indications were normal.

    And what fu%%ing idiot would design a plane where the right seat had no indication

    of what the left seat was doing with that stick ?

    OH yes . . . those nerds at Airbus.

    To say that this was " Pilot Error "...... lacks understanding of the ramifications of this

    gargantuan fu$$ up, starting with nerds that designed this ( AIRBUS ) travesty and the

    " aircrews " that operate it.

    And to think someone has allowed them ( AIRBUS ) to put into operation a plane

    that can carry 400 naive souls.

    OMG for the sake of aviation in this century ....WHY has no one put a stop to this insanity ?

    dick rutan

    an actual pilot.




























  12. #12
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    OUCH!!!!!

    ..and I thought it was painful to quote Dave Grimm and point a finger.

  13. #13
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Dick Rutan for President!!!!!!

    Talk clear, state your case, and damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.

    (please do not send this to R&R for this, I will edit it if that is the direction it needs)
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  14. #14
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    In the short time I flew airbus' I hated 'em. The side stick controller was kind of cool but it's not hooked to any cables and there lies the problem.
    Kevin

  15. #15
    Superchub's Avatar
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    I have about 7k in the A320. I love to hand fly the airplane. It is a wonderful airplane/computer to fly. I have flown all these situations in the sim and they are all manageable to a safe landing at an airport. However we had the advantage of anticipation of what was coming. I found the Air France situation to be the most usefull of all the training that I have ever had. My company has this procedure as a memory item for recovery (NOW) and it has always been in the manufacture Flight Manual (FCOM). We found it and made a procedure. It works amazingly well. Like training to loose a flight control If you don't train for it, you more than likely can't do it. The (SHORT BUS) as I call it is a fine aircraft/computer. A computer is as good as the operator! This is usually the case. Garbage in, Garbage out. I cannot attest as to the larger Airbus aircraft even though they all work the same way..

    Brandon

  16. #16
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Opinion:

    Superchub I saw you in the mags and respect you, your bush plane, and your career, please entertain this idea:

    I think there was/is a time when aircraft designers and airlines decided that a pilot was going to ask the computer for a maneuver (a mother may I approach). And the computer would approve the request and all would be fine (a story book senario). Good selling point to the airlines, BUT the pilot must obey, and even die.

    Well, no computer wants to live more than me! I want to fly the damn thing if I need to! (opinion). I am a software dude I know!

    BTW A "good" computer could out fly any pilot, but it could fail for many many reasons. Airlines (and their investors) need to think outside the black box (the computer).

  17. #17
    Superchub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8GCBC View Post
    Opinion:

    Superchub I saw you in the mags and respect you, your bush plane, and your career, please entertain this idea:

    I think there was/is a time when aircraft designers and airlines decided that a pilot was going to ask the computer for a maneuver (a mother may I approach). And the computer would approve the request and all would be fine (a story book senario). Good selling point to the airlines, BUT the pilot must obey, and even die.

    Well, no computer wants to live more than me! I want to fly the damn thing if I need to! (opinion). I am a software dude I know!

    BTW A "good" computer could out fly any pilot, but it could fail for many many reasons. Airlines (and their investors) need to think outside the black box (the

    computer).

    I agree will all that you said. I just hate ignorant bashing. I flew the 737 for 6 years before the BUS and I love real Steam/cable powered airplanes. If I had to pick between a BUS and a 737 for my JOB I would pick a BUS all day long as it is way more comfortable. But just to go fly around and be airline pilot, the 737 all day long. To fly on a Saturday for breakfast you cant beat little airplanes (CUBS). I always have believed that Airline guy's that don't fly little airplanes anymore really are loosing some major airman skills!!!

  18. #18
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Mr. SuperChub:

    Thank you. I like reading comments from the top of the "food chain".

    I know many 747, 737, 717 guys who stop by the hangar and want to fly with me all day long! They love being "free" again!

    One 747 pilot I was flying with "busted me up" when he said "can we fly this low?" We were over water at 250' below a cliff line in uncontrolled airspace VFR. He explained that he knows nothing (forgot) about VFR (for real!). The pilot was honest and needed an explaination for what we were doing.

    -- 8GCBC

  19. #19
    Superchub's Avatar
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    8GCBC

    Thanks for your remarks. I feel the Top of the chain is relative to one's environment. I feel You Guy's on this forum is the Top when it come's to my interest. FUN with our flying machines. I feel airplanes are tools and each one has a very defined purpose. Cub's to are the leatherman multi-tool of the airplane world. They are used for so many things by so many different people...

  20. #20
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superchub View Post
    8GCBC

    Thanks for your remarks. I feel the Top of the chain is relative to one's environment. I feel You Guy's on this forum is the Top when it come's to my interest. FUN with our flying machines. I feel airplanes are tools and each one has a very defined purpose. Cub's to are the leatherman multi-tool of the airplane world. They are used for some many things by so many different people...
    What ALSO (your above comments are correct with me) sold me on my bush aircraft (just like my steel boat) is because with simple hand tools it will fly (sail) for a long long time! A torch, hammer, rivet gun, etc.. IS all I need, NO aerospace tooling! I.E. Cessan is an insult when it comes to support, at least to me (But would take a straight 180 or 185, and deal with it).

  21. #21
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Superchub, if you construed my post on the bus as ignorant bashing I apolgize. I have very limited experience on the bus and I should have probably just lurked on this one. I just couldn't get used to their systems and nomenclature during training. I have five boeing types so I'm used to the Boeing way. During O.E. on the bus I was discourged from clicking off the auto pilot till late in the game. I hand fly the 747-200 from 10,000 on down almost every approach. Anyway, you have my new favorite airplane on this board. 2+2 Tim just moved to second place.
    Kevin

  22. #22
    Tim's Avatar
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    And I was just going to comment and say if I ever have to fly on a smoker I want cub junkie up there in the left seat. Now this, my feelings are hurt

  23. #23
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I knew I was going to get in trouble with that. I'm sorry Tim but look how long you held down #1 Cub.
    Kevin

  24. #24
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Opinion:

    Rutan loves making aircraft out of dead animals (oil products)! And this idea is spreading fast! Never will like it!

    Put a hair dryer (1000w) on the side of a "composite" stucture for half an hour then load it, will scare the crap out of you! That is why all certified composites must be painted white (or a very light color). If you paint one black it will lose 25% strength, the FAA tolds me that.

    Also, composite primary structures are so easy to "screw up", without knowing it.

    I like metal for everything structural.

    And Space ($#@$) Ship one... is like coming home from a hot date (withOUT getting any) and then bragging about it. Sad. Rutan is true California Poser.

    -- 8GCBC

  25. #25
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8GCBC View Post
    Opinion:

    Rutan loves making aircraft out of dead animals (oil products)! And this idea is spreading fast! Never will like it!

    Put a hair dryer (1000w) on the side of a "composite" stucture for half an hour then load it, will scare the crap out of you! That is why all certified composites must be painted white (or a very light color). If you paint one black it will lose 25% strength, the FAA tolds me that.

    Also, composite primary structures are so easy to "screw up", without knowing it.

    I like metal for everything structural.

    And Space ($#@$) Ship one... is like coming home from a hot date (withOUT getting any) and then bragging about it. Sad. Rutan is true California Poser.

    -- 8GCBC
    ...feeling better now, GCBC??

    That was quite the catharsis.

    Every material has its drawbacks, annddd strengths. (pun intended) We make our choices. D

  26. #26
    8GCBC's Avatar
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    Dave:

    Sorry, I borke my own rule about being personal. Sounded out of line. Thanks for addressing this one. Will stick to product not who uses them.

    --8GCBC

  27. #27
    SC3CM's Avatar
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    The machine is what it is. There are thousands of successful flights each year in all kinds of weather. I don't like the idea that the controls for left and right seat are not connected, and the cavalier attitude Airbus took when an AA Airbus ripped the tail off using top rudder to help recover from an unusual attitude (a by the book procedure for AA at the time), but none of this caused the crash here. This was pure pilot/crew failure. Contributing factors being what they were if the operator did what a pilot should do in a stall, it probably would have turned out much differently.

    Personally I like seeing a pilot with some stickers on his bag of small planes. Piper, Cessna, whatever. Makes me think driver is a little more pilot than computer operator.


    Rene
    -Rene

  28. #28
    Seaworthy's Avatar
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    And I was just going to comment and say if I ever have to fly on a smoker I want cub junkie up there in the left seat. Now this, my feelings are hurt
    Good God man! Sweat dries, blood congeals, and bones mend. Suck it up and be a Marine. I can have Cliff come over and hold your hand next time your feelings are hurt and you need a banky!!!
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

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