This area is dedicated to posts and discussions about operating on floats.
This area is dedicated to posts and discussions about operating on floats.
"Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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Let's start this off with a bang...
Is it more dangerous to step turn into the downwind? (from upwind to downwind), or to the upwind?(downwind to upwind)
A great bit of recall for all, it was discussed in your ground school for floats!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Question two: why?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
...George, I'm sure you're trying to engage the non-floaters who may be lurking.
Yikes, I hope the answer to the question is not something a floater takes even a second to think about. It should be deep in his senses.
Can we get an area for questions about downwind turns?
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Yes, it's call "Rants and Raves". And it exists purely because folks have poor communication and are unable to simply answer a question. The whole question becomes....."why?"...."why does the aircraft act the way it does???", fer instance.Originally Posted by behindpropellers
Can we get an area for questions about downwind turns?
Seems like that is the argument, but everyone got stuck on the "whether?" of it.
...must be something to do with 'reading comprehension'. Hopefully we won't get a an area of the website for "reading comprehension".
...tooo much coffee this am. leaving now!D
Uh-oh, here we go!
Nimpo Lake Logan... boonie SuperCubber
200mi (300km) from nearest stoplight... just right! - "Que hesitatus fornicatus est"
George
Is that like "lets demonstrate a confined area takeoff turning downwind to the right???"
"What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little!
Ah, Dale, turning FROM downwind to the right might be more specific...
Dave, Yup, should be obvious, but I am not seeing much in the way of response... maybe every one is groaning and now looking at the Husky site
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
OK Should that turn be to the left or to the right and why? Under what circumstances? Under what wind conditions? Confined space? Big waves?
N1PA
I was taught to turn left (ever watch a crop duster?). this depends, of course, on each situation.
It's hard to make a comeback if you haven't been anywhere.
For a moment I thought this was going to be about centrifugal force, P-factor and X-wd
control.
While I really don't know for sure, I was getting instruction in a 185 with 3730 Wip amphibs in south Louisiana a few years ago. He had me landing with a 15 mph tail wind and stepping around to the left to take off. We did numerous circuits like that. Another thing he had me do was "S" turns on one float before adding more power for takeoff. To make it even more interesting, there were stakes for fish traps making for an obstacle course. I probably wasn't the best at this and for sure wouldn't do it by myself, but it was fun and nice knowing I had probably one of the best float instructors in the right seat. I forget how many hours of night float time he had going out to oil rigs.Let's start this off with a bang...
Is it more dangerous to step turn into the downwind? (from upwind to downwind), or to the upwind?(downwind to upwind)
Last edited by 180Marty; 12-14-2011 at 08:22 AM.
Every newbie float pilot knows the answer to this question. It ain't about left or right.
Think about step taxiing downwind and then what 2 forces will be acting on the a/c as you turn the a/c 180 degrees. 2 forces acting on the a/c to upset it. This is real stuff boys. S*** Happens if you don't know this.
I'll show my ignorance since everybody keeps asking for the answers. The outside of the turn wing is going slightly faster than the inside so will want to fly a little sooner. The wind is trying to get under the wing when crosswind and centrifugal force is trying to submerge the outside of the turn float. There, possibly three forces. Is 15 mph considered much wind? Oh, I did know that left or right doesn't matter---just did lefts since I could see the obstacles better.what 2 forces will be acting on the a/c
Last edited by 180Marty; 12-14-2011 at 10:29 AM.
Marty,
Sorry, but for a high time instructor he had it DEAD wrong. While I agree a cessna with a tail wind is a water loving bird, Dave and Rob are correct in the centrifugal force and wind force combined.
When turning from downwind to upwind, both forces want to roll you to the outside of the turn; if turning from upwind to downwind the wind force will try to push the outside wing up, helping to counter act the centrifugal force, making it less likely you will sink a float.
Each plane reacts differently, and will take different amounts of wind before having difficulties. Trying to turn on choppy water can lead to skipping, which can lead to a bent spreader bar or putting a wing in the water, (neither are good).
Direction of turn- Yup, P-factor is a big force, so most planes go much better to the left... however, if you are still flying a cub with a long flap handle, you will not be able to get full alieron with your flaps down, (flap handle in the way), so you will have to turn right.
And Dave, you and I agree, that every newbie SHOULD know this, but one post a couple of years ago stated that they no longer teach step turns for float ratings????
Morning all!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
So is 15 mph considered quite a bit or are you seasoned guys turning in 20-25 winds. Where I was turning was fairly big lake(about 2 miles across) with medium chop. Was always landing downwind and turning into the wind for takeoff.
So is 15 mph considered quite a bit or are you seasoned guys turning in 20-25 winds. Where I was turning was fairly big lake(about 2 miles across) with medium chop. Was always landing downwind and turning into the wind for takeoff.
George,
I should have worded it better, but you sure got the meaning.
After not having been on floats for 20 years, last fall was a joy.
And yes Dave Calkins is right, if you don't pay attention when running downwind (and at certain wind speeds you shouldn't be running downwind) and turning into the wind bad stuff can happen really fast.
The other thing that really is an eye opener is river operations. You go from needing to know how to drive a jet boat to flying an airplane in a hurry. I really enjoy river operations as I learned to fly floats in the interior where there is a lot of river flying to be had. Current vs wind speed and direction when combined with confined space and cut bank rivers present multiple opportunities to say Aw Sh*t!!
"What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little!
Marty,
After 15 kts, one should ask why they are even step turning, my opinion after seeing more than one wingtip hydraulicly removed (I saw only after the plane came to town)
Yes, it can be done, but for me is a bit over the top for need, and does cut the safety margin, especially if turning from downwind to upwind... yikes. I would not suggest a downwind to upwind turn with a 15kt wind and chop, might cost way more than a helicopter to fly it out in one piece.
Dale,
to add to the oh sh**, you say that as you kick off the mags while falling out of the seat onto the float and running forward to stop the plane before it hits that submerged rock... as you get to the end of the float your toe hooks the cleat (I take them off now) on the bow and catapults you forward, over the rock into the water while tearing an unrepairable hole in your new hip boots.
Result is that you are now wet, and the rock that you were worried about was smooth so the plane slid up, then the wake of your olympic belly flop lifts it so it slides back and off, drifting downriver and away as you try to catch up floundering, wet, and red in the face as the girl in the back seat admires your use of the english language...
This is a fictitious post, so any resemblance of past experience (or multiple combined), is just a coincidence, and I know Nothing I know! (Sgt. Shultz, Hogan's Heros)
Floats can be fun!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Another thought in turns with wind...
If you have difficulty turning at taxi speed to the downwind taxi, it is usually best to sail...
at 15kts I usually sail the cub, it is much easier on all. I think Dave remembers some planes that have gone over when folks tried to plow turn to taxi downwind, or sunk a float when trying to turn back upwind, or a gust caught the tail as it lifted on a wave and the elevator was up...
Wind and water is not a place to be complacent, and the taxi accidents are not uncommon...
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
George, I guess we were very lucky. The wind was 15 mph not kts. I still can here him say " I'm not going to let you mess up" and when we were all done after an hour of mostly water work, and I was wringing wet, he said "what we just did isn't really necessary or practical". On the way back to the airport he had me land in a little tree lined slot connecting the intra coastal waterway to a lake. I didn't think we'd fit but he said "make sure you keep it centered" which I must have done and we landed with a quartering tailwind. Was the most fun hour of float flying I've ever done.
I wouldn't put myself in a position where a downwind to upwind step taxi turn was necessary in a 15mph wind. Float on the outside of the turn is going down, wingtip is going in, plane flips over. The whole scenario sounds dangerous. I would even be hesitant to try a crosswind to upwind turn in these conditions. One stronger gust and bad things will happen. The waves will be capping at 15mph, and going parallell through these rollers on step while fighting to keep the wing down? No thanks.
None of it was necessary but after doing it, more normal stuff seems easier. Like I said before, I'd never try it by myself, but nice to feel what close to the edge is like. Remember, they were 3730's---big boats.
One more thing to add to this discussion, taxiing downwind in 15 knot winds is asking to buy a new prop before it's time.
I am with George on this one, 15 knots and I am sailing my cub.
And for what it is worth, I think next season I am just going to throw my hip boots in the lake before I put them on to go flying. At least that way I won't be under the illusion that they are somehow going to keep me dry while I am trying my best not to let the bank, rock, tree, log, sandbar, boat or whatever destroy my floats.
Don't you just love float flying
"What we obtain too cheap we esteem too little!
On a previous flight review we did step turns through here going both ways. I did have a tendency to get slow. Wasn't as windy that day either.
step turns.jpeg
To clarify my above post I'm in a 182 on Aerocet 3500's - plenty of floatation for the plane. With a smaller plane such as a cub in 15 mph I wouldn't want to do much of anything if the wind was more than 30 degrees off my nose in open water. River work would be different as you may not be fighting waves as much. But in river work its hard to imagine you would have enough room to make a step taxi turn if the river is small enough that it wouldn't have rollers. In my old champ on 1500's just taxing down wind and getting turned to upwind in 15mph winds was an attention getter.
Step turns in rivers is just to make the takeoff run longer... well, narrow ones.
Marty, glad you enjoyed it, but I am shuddering...
Dale, I went to surf shoes and shorts. the heat from the firewall kept me warm, and I could hop out into the water without worry about getting my shoes wet... they always are anyway!
didn't I say I was going to get the discussion heated?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
What's wrong with this statement relating to step turns????????
George, if your'e embarrassed, ask nicely and I'll remove the quotes and post........if I can>
Last edited by Dave Calkins; 12-14-2011 at 04:54 PM.
Also, No issue with step taxiing with a 15 mph tailwind. Just make sure to come off the step for the turn at the downwind end. If you leave your h2o rudders up (they were up for the step taxi, right?), come off the step and allow the turn to initiate, it'll weather vane quickly and you'll be heading into the wind maybe sooner than a gnarly-scary downwind step-turn, and take less space to do it.
Also, sailing can be made a science, NOT an art, if you get it in your head right and keep it there.
Lows Lake
Just when you think your done a new angle is tried, never give up. This was posted today in the Poststar paper in Glensfalls NY. www.poststar.com
The federal lawsuit that seeks to reopen nearly 40 Adirondack lakes and ponds to floatplanes will continue, after the U.S. District Court for the NorthernGlenn
District ruled Thursday against a state motion for its dismissal.The lawsuit alleges the state, by continuing to ban floatplanes from lakes and ponds in
the Adirondack Forest Preserve, violates the Americans With Disabilities Act and wrongly attempts to supersede the federal regulatory authority of
aviation; a violation of the U.S. Constitution.State Assistant Attorney General Susan Lee Taylor argued the lawsuit, filed last year by Former
Warrensburg Town Supervisor Maynard Baker and five other elderly residents, never proved the plaintiffs have standing to sue and didn't contain
specifics about which water bodies the plaintiffs actually wanted to open.Taylor argued these deficiencies warrant a complete dismissal.But U.S. District
judge for the Northern District Gary Sharpe didn't agree."Contrary to defendants' assertion, the deficiencies in the complaint and proposed amended
complaint are minimal," Sharpe's decision reads. His decision grants Baker's attorney, Matthew Norfolk, 30 days to file an amended petition that
addresses the deficiencies.Norfolk said the amended petition will include a list of specific lakes and ponds that were once floatplane accessible but have
since been closed by state regulations specific to the Adirondack Park.Floatplane access in the Adirondacks has been a contentious issue for decades.
It was again thrust to the forefront of regional debate in 2009, after the Adirondack Park Agency moved to ban floatplanes from Lows Lake, a popular
back-country fishing destination in St. Lawrence County.Baker and his co-plaintiffs filed the lawsuit at the height of the Lows Lake debate.Operators of
the two remaining float plane charter companies in the Adirondacks have said Lows Lake accounts for at least a third of their business.The APA Board
of Commissioners, under mounting public pressure, reversed its earlier stance in 2010 and moved to allow access to Lows Lake. But the APA's change
of heart was overridden in court in August when it lost a court challenge brought by several regional environmental groups.Environmental groups
contend the presence of floatplanes is contrary to stipulations in management guidelines of the state Forest Preserve.Sharpe's decision questions the
legal viability of Norfolk's claim that the state is somehow usurping federal aviation authority by enforcing the Adirondack State Land Master
Plan.Copyright 2011 The Post-Star. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.Read more: http://poststar.com/news/local/judge...#ixzz1fzLqYcW1
Writen by Brad Parker
Dear Pilot and/or outdoor access supporter,
I need your help in this continuing effort. As you know, Lows Lake is a 9 mile long, man made reservoir created by two dams. The lake is south of Cranberry Lake and 20 miles southeast of the Village of Tupper Lake, NY. The use of this lake represents about 50% of the income to the two remaining Adirondack commercial float plane operators. It also has numerous camping areas and has private properties (including a Boy Scout Camp) and private roads and motor vehicles near some of its shore line. It is not, however, accessible by roadway to the general public.
Pushed and supported by well lawyered and financed environmental organizations, who insist that Lows is a "wilderness area", this and other numerous remote waterbodies have been closed to float plane access in the Adirondacks by the Adirondack Park Agency, the New York Dept. of Environmental Conservation, and the recent, essentially ex-parte ruling by a state court judge. In this matter, the judge only heard the arguments of the state agencies and the extreme environmental organizations.
The state agency authorities say that these closures are part of their "Master Plan" for the administration of the Adirondack Forest Preserve, also known as the Adirondack Park.
Lows Lake is one of the last large remote lakes that is, but will be soon (January 1, 2012) be closed to seaplane access.
There are numerous reasons why the lake should not be closed.
Indeed, a study performed by the state a few years ago showed that a majority of the actual users of the lake did not object to the operation of float planes there.
There have been several efforts made by the commercial operators who have had meetings with various state officials and there is currently a non-connected or affiliated law suit in the federal district court by a group of disabled persons seeking to overturn the closures. All of these efforts are being strongly opposed by the state's executive branch.
Over the past two years a group of pilots in the Adirondack northcountry have written several letters to the three Governors and several other officials asking that an accomodation be made to allow continued float plane use at Lows Lake. The Conservation Dept and Park Agency joined in writing two responses over the time period. Both responses were brief and said that their position was that they consider the "matter closed". They did not address or respond to the several valid reasons why it is incorrect to close Lows Lake to aviation access. No responses were ever received to several letters addressed to the three New York Governors in office during the time period or from the chief agency officials to which letters were also written during the same period.
Information obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request made for us by a local Tupper Lake attorney showed that letters received by the NYS Agencies which supported this closure were very predominately sent by persons in New York City, New Jersey and Pennsylvania and were solicited by an Adirondack hiking and environmental organization.
Over the past two years, four of 13 legislators contacted provided responses. They all indicated that they would review the matter and possibly propose legislation to alter the agencies action to close Lows Lake. However, no further action or response from the legislators has been observed for the past 6 months.
Recently I have had conversations with and provided information to the new Executive Director of the Seaplane Pilot's Association, Steve McCaughey, and also to Jon Brown of Brown's Seaplanes in Florida and Bob Tebbutt, the SPA northern New York Field Director.
All of these individuals have or are asking these legislators to please respond to them with information about what can be done to create an accommodation for continued seaplane access to Lows Lake.
It is important that pilots and others interested in the future of floatplane use in the Adirondacks and throughout this country continue to voice opposition to and work to overturn this closure.
We must be vocal about this lake. If this lake can be closed, any lake can be closed. Most are certainly more wild and natural than Lows.
The closure of Lows represents a "taking" of public property for the exclusive use of the preservationist paddling community by the use of a totally invalid argument. It is about the end justifying the means for a decidedly more powerful and selfish group. It is about government environmental agency officials who come from and are supported by the extreme environmental community who believe that they have enough power and position that they do not have to defend, respond to, or negotiate their decisions.
Our only power at this time rests with getting the attention of the elected representatives. They give much greater respect and weight to personnally written letters than they do to letters signed by numerous individuals, as those written by our group have been.
I ask that every person interested in the future of float planes please send a short note (and please beg all of your friends to write a similiar note) to at least one of the elected representatives below and all of them if you will.
Just mail a short letter and say "please keep Lows Lake in the Adirondacks open to float plane access " and or " Float Plane access to Lows Lake is important to me. Please create a law to allow planes to continue to go there" and sign your name and mail it to one of the legislators below. You can write your own message as well or instead.
Anything that you say will get the message across that you support float plane access in the Adirondacks and elsewhere. They need to hear from you-each and everyone. It is extremely important and valuable to all of us as people who believe that we should have reasonable access to our public places, as well as to all pilots everywhere. Please write them and write to them again and again as time allows you over the months ahead.
In addition, if you are aware of an attorney or law firm that is interested in engaging in this public access law issue, please ask them to contact me or Steve McCaughey at the Seaplane Pilot's Association.
Thank you very, very much.
Please write:
Governor Andrew Cuomo
Executive Chambers
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224
Assemblywoman Janet Duprey
NYS Assembly
937 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248
Assemblywoman Donna Lupardo
NYS Assembly
557 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248
Senator Betty Little
NYS Senate
506 Legislative Office Building
Albany, NY 12247
Commissioner Joe Martens
NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233
Senator James L. Seward
NYS Senate
711 Legislative Office Building
Albany, NY 12247
Assemblywoman Theresa Sayward
NYS Assembly
940 L. O. B.
Albany, NY 12248
Assemblyman Tony Jordon
NYS Assembly Assembly
725 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248
Assemblyman Marc Butler
NYS Assembly
725 L.O.B.
Albany, NY 12248
Last edited by cubdriver2; 12-15-2011 at 12:21 PM.
Yup, FROM downwind, depends on wind velocity & airplane type/pilot experience. With strong winds it is better to stop before turning around.Ah, Dale, turning FROM downwind to the right might be more specific...
Dave, Yup, should be obvious, but I am not seeing much in the way of response... maybe every one is groaning and now looking at the Husky site
[QUOTE] Rob Murray For a moment I thought this was going to be about centrifugal force, P-factor and X-wdcontrol. [QUOTE]
Rob is correct. In lighter winds left turn will utilize P-factor to help tighten the turn. With stronger winds in a right turn the P-factor will help reduce the weather
cocking effect as the left rudder will run out of power. Of course this assumes a single engine airplane. With two engines, you have the added advantage of being able to manipulate the throttles.
N1PA
Marty, This instructor may have had a lot of experience but, he uses extremely poor judgement. Particularly while training a low time seaplane pilot as you say you are. Most large airplanes have a published limitation that "you will not land or take off with more than 10 knots of tail wind." These airplanes have take off and landing speeds which are a lot higher than a 185. That means that 10 knots is a lot smaller percentage of the stall speed on the big planes than 15mph is on a 185.
Landing downwind in 15mph wind means that your ground (water) touch down speed is 30mph higher than with a headwind. Your water drag at touch down will be extremely high and you will run out of directional control while still going 15mph or greater (0 airspeed). All I can say is, that instructor seems to be a bit too macho for his own good.
N1PA
It goes against all our training, but with a standard flap handle pulled up, I end up pinning your knee between the stick and the flaps at about 1/2 alieron...
So with the one bird I flew with that handle, I made right turns, and did it as little as possible!
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
[QUOTE=skywagon8a;520176]Yup, FROM downwind, depends on wind velocity & airplane type/pilot experience. With strong winds it is better to stop before turning around.
[QUOTE] Rob Murray For a moment I thought this was going to be about centrifugal force, P-factor and X-wdcontrol.Just to be argumentative (and because I believe so-called "P-factor" to be a very small affect)......what does P-factor have to do with turning a floatplane? Whether you're step-turning or "displacement" turning?
Rob is correct. In lighter winds left turn will utilize P-factor to help tighten the turn. With stronger winds in a right turn the P-factor will help reduce the weather
cocking effect as the left rudder will run out of power. Of course this assumes a single engine airplane. With two engines, you have the added advantage of being able to manipulate the throttles.
Even if I believed Pfactor to exert a significant force, would it have ANY force on a 'level' a/c??? Don't Pfactor believers state "...descending blade...blah, blah..."? On a LEVEL FLOAT PLANE???
.......
So, you're discussing step turns with float neophytes and considering scenarios where they would be step turning WITH flaps down???? NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Man, this is just getting good...
Option A, to be called skilled Dave's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, lift flaps, step turn, pull flaps back on and lift off...
Option B, to be called soupless Campbell's: flaps at two notches for takeoff, power up, get on step, step turn, lift off...
Seems more attention can be paid to outside, skids and such by not messing with the flaps at all. What is your take?
I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Evidently I must be wrong since what I said isn't possible. I do know that when we touched the water, there was a very big tendency to pitch forward. We never came off the step going downwind and always made the step turn into the wind to takeoff again. Also, when making the tight turns I was told to kind of walk the rudder pedals. When making a left turn, you would give it quite a bit of left rudder but immediately counteract it with right so it wouldn't get to tight. Kind of jab to the left and back off then repeat. This man could make a 185 do things most wouldn't dream of doing.Landing downwind in 15mph wind means that your ground (water) touch down speed is 30mph higher than with a headwind. Your water drag at touch down will be extremely high and you will run out of directional control while still going 15mph or greater (0 airspeed).
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