Ski Flying 101

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Hi All,
I got to see Ski Flying 101. I found it a great primer for anyone that has never done it. It has some great tips. I would have rathered seen the Top Cub doing the flying but the J3 was great. I believe that Damian was slightly hamstrung by off airport operations in New Jersey being disallowed so allot was seen as groomed landings at Trinca. But this is exactly what Damian said it would be is a primer.

It would be great to see the like Likes of Damian and or Mike Vivian have an ongoing informational post here about various operations that ratchet you up to the next level. Deep snow and of course Lake and River.
It is touched on in Skiflying 101 but an advanced off airport dicussion needs to happen.
If you are thinking of doing ski flying this DVD is well worth it for the quick tips alone.
Thanks
John

[CloudDancer]

Hmmmmm. Too bad they didn't have that DVD for me to watch before I headed for the Porcupine River in '82. Mighta' made things go a liddle better for me in "It Was Okay I Guess...", which is about to (in chapt. 4), as it so often does in the Chronicles, "take a turn" for the worse...(sigh...)


Here we go again.....


Cloud(NO!NOTTHATWAY!)Dancer

[Bill Ingerson]

He has three DVD's out now. Tail Wheel landings 101
Tail Wheel Landings 201
Snow ski Flying 101

I liked the 201 the best, it helped me a geat deal. Hope he gets some more out there.

Bill

[mvivion]

There are a number of considerations when operating skis. One of the first is that you must be prepared to spend the night out. Sooner or later you probably will, assuming you actually fly skis a fair amount and in remote country. This implies:

1) Good survival gear. Look carefully at your winter survival gear. It should be a somewhat different collection of stuff that you carry in summer (you DO carry survival year all year, right?). I switch to heavy winter sleeping bags, more fire starting stuff, lots of those hand warmer packets, and other tools. I'm not a big fan of tents in winter, but you MUST have something to make a shelter out of. Wing covers work well, and there are other solutions.
2) Proper dress. This does not mean heavy boots in the baggage compartment, only to be donned after your feet are wet and cold. I'm a big believer in Bunny Boots. Just saw a TV program the other day that had a segment on Antarctica and the researchers there. All were wearing Bunny Boots. While there's no open water in Antarctica, bunny boots will protect you feet from freezing even if you fill them with water. Dress in layers so that when you get stuck, you can shed some layers while you get un-stuck, thus avoiding getting all sweated up. The most dangerous thing you can do is get really wet in very cold weather.

3) Make sure your skis are properly rigged and in good shape. Check the bungees and limit cables for damage/wear/etc. I prefer springs instead of bungees, but bear in mind that at least one FSDO I know of considered a change from bungees to springs considered that a "major alteration" even though the ski manufacturer provided the springs with the skis...... It's hard to inspect the ski bottoms, but at the very least take a CLOSE look at the plastic on the ski bottoms prior to installing the skis and again when they come off in spring. Look for cracks, etc. and replace the plastic as soon as it starts to sag or crack. This stuff can turn into a major snow scoop if it cracks and sags.

4) Beware low sun angles and overcast days. Flat light can be VERY dangerous. While doing a checkride once, I landed a couple of times on a relatively small lake in a 185. Finally, the check airman told me to taxi back to where I'd touched down and take off from there. I turned around and as we proceeded back to my touchdown point, we both saw the huge beaver house not twenty feet from where I'd been touching down..... This was really flat light, with three or four miles visibility and light snow with a lot of snow on the ground, so worst case. But, the point is, even just an overcast day and a low sun angle (like it always is during winter in the north country) you will experience flat light. And, it is incredibly easy to miss seeing things that could hurt you or your airplane in flat light. When you start ski flying 101, do so on sunny days at first. Any time you're out on a snowmachine or skis or ?? in snow covered ground, pay attention to how well your depth perception works, and how well you can see snow covered objects in flat light.

5) Overflow (most in the lower 48 call it slush--whatever) can provide lots of really great exercise, and help you burn lots of calories in that weight loss program you're considering. In very cold temperatures (and I've experienced overflow at -45F) the stuff can be deadly. If you get your feet wet, and you're not wearing bunny boots, you MUST stop, build a fire, and dry your feet and footgear out, before going any further. Obviously, if you're near a cabin or someone's house, or a car, drying out may be a lot less difficult. I'll post some photos of overflow tonight if I can remember where I put them.

6) As with any other off airport flying program, you MUST be very proficient in flying your airplane. In deep or untracked snow, you are going to have to do a lot of site evaluation and pioneering, and that means multiple low passes while looking out the window. You are going to be doing a lot of maneuvering at low level. That is NOT a good place to be if you're not quite comfortable in the airplane and proficient. I have found that most pilots become quite comfortable and complacent VERY quickly in the low level environment, and very soon in their exposure to this venue, they'll be pulling really steep banks, close to the ground and at high alpha. That's a recipe for disaster.

Got to get to work now. More later. And, all you GENUINE experts (and I'm not, but I've screwed up as much as the next guy and learned a bit from those mistakes), please join in.

MTV

[courierguy]

An associated problem with flat light conditions that almost bite me last winter: I was landing to the north of an abandoned shack in a wide open field. To the north of the shack is the lesson for me here.... as I already knew that in this area, all the strong wind comes out of the south. What I didn't think about, and couldn't really see in the gray sky flat light day, was a large drift on the lee side/north side of the shack. I got launched back up in the air and cocked sideways a bit (the drift was higher on one side so it launched me crooked). Luckily I was going so slow the relaunch was only a few feet high but it sure got my attention, and now when screwing around like this I always suspect the downwind (and not the wind at the time, the generally prevailing wind direction in the area) side of any obstructions and if possible avoid landing there or at least be going super slow.

[cubdriver2]

Flat light is hard to tell someone about, on some days it's just as dangerous as glassy water on floats and in both cases the landing or premature touching is a big suprise. The more blind landings you have the more you realize that you are at risk every time and at least glassy water is smooth but the flat light on snow can hide things as big as a pickup truck or bigger. Be carefull flying low over a snow covered water body that gets lowered during the winter as the bottom structure will come up and bite you. Surface definition is worse in the middle of a lake or big field so try to land parallel next to something that will help with depth perception like trees, brush, snowmobile tracks. Some day's you can be at 100' agl and not tell if your 2' up or 200'. My low time $.002

Glenn

[Cubus Maximus]

Laying tracks...



Yep, overflow hiding there...

[Flying Miss Daisy]

TRAINING SHOT!!!!

[Cubus Maximus]

Steps 1 and 2...

[Ouapetec]

Hi, this forum has really been interesting. A member for a little over a year and I read regularly, maybe someone could help me putting numbers together. This week we'll take the floats off my SC (150hp.), and installing the Wipair 2200 wheel skis and I'm looking for a bit of info on performance. Cruise speed is really what I'm looking at. I realize skis drag quite a bit, but would be interested in getting realistic figures.... If someone equipped with similar rig could respond it would be great.
Thanks,
Karl

[courierguy]

Yesterday, at 9800', Idaho/Wyoming border. I got my Christmas present early! Iwas going to get out and set up a picture with me doing a Tebow type pose, but didn't bring my ski equipped tripod.

[aktango58]

Flat light can be ugly, and can arrive in seconds...

Also flying from sun into shade can turn light flat...

sun directly overhead can hide rough stuff also.

Big water bodies can have tall pressure ridges all over, so just setting down on smooth ice might not be the best without a look see...

John, send the vid to me, I need some ski flying influence

[mvivion]

Putting down tracks in deep snow:

It's fun to put down a set of tracks in snow, then in subsequent passes, put the skis right back in that same set of tracks. In DEEP snow, however, you may be better served to put down a set of tracks, then on the next pass, put down a set of tracks right NEXT to the first set, then on the next pass a set just to the other side of the first set. Etc. In cold temperatures, tracks will "set up" and become quite firm, allowing you to stay on top of the snow once you slow down and stop. But, a single, perfectly aligned set of tracks will also set up and create the effect of landing on a set of railroad tracks. Your skis will want to slide off those "pillars", and now you're stuck. Don't ask how I found that out.

So, in VERY deep snow, put down a set of tracks, then make them WIDER. Keep working those tracks until you're pretty confident that you've got a pretty good "runway". After landing, get on those snowshoes and improve that runway for takeoff. By the time you're done doing whatever it was that you landed to do, those tracks will have set up nicely and off you go.

Turning:

Getting turned around in a tight spot is probably one of the greatest challenges of ski flying. Hence my first choice, as noted above: Land, stop, and take off all in the same direction. Unfortunately, not all LZs permit this luxury.

Turning around in minimum radius is somewhat of an artform. Generally, turning to the left will provide the smallest radius of turn, due to left turning tendency. Tail ski will help to "float" that tailwheel, and you won't have to hold quite as much forward stick to keep the tail up. That tail is going to try to keep you straight, sort of. Too much forward pressure on the stick MAY force the skis up against the aft limit cables, and now you're pushing snow with the toes of the skis, unwittingly. A bad combination.

Slow for the turn, but don't stop. Depending on how much space you have available, you may want to turn out a little to the right, then quickly reverse the turn to the left. Short, quick blasts of power, combined with FULL left rudder will get it going around. You don't want to keep the power in, since that will tend to send you off in more of a straight line (those keels, remember?), so keep the blasts of power quick, then get off the power. Keep some forward stick pressure to keep the tail up out of the snow to the extent possible. If it looks like it's getting out of hand, chop the power, and plan on some shoving and shoveling. It comes with the territory.

Good snowshoes and a shovel are essential pieces of equipment for ski flying. And, those goofy little snowshoes they now sell in the LL Bean catalog are NOT what I call snowshoes. Get a BIG set of webs. You're going to be tramping down an LZ, not pretending to prance through the two inch deep snow. While this will offer lots of exercise, we're looking to compact snow, not improve aerobics.

If you do get stuck in a turning situation, be VERY careful in turning the plane around by hand. It is quite possible to damage an axle by reefing on the tail of an airplane. Those skis can stick pretty tight and they impart a serious lever arm on your axles. Go cautiously. I kick the toe of the skis a bit, then push the tail sideways a small amount, then kick the skis lightly again, then push the tail around again. It's a slow process, but it'll save those axles, and without those axles, you're spending the night.

MTV

[SFD9]

Watched the trailer on Utube & just ordered it as a xmas gift for a friend who's new to skis. Thanks for turning me to this vid, looks like a good resource & hope he let's me borrow it back! Haha

[Flying Miss Daisy]

Take a look at it as well....great tips along with what we are seeing here.
J

[Cubus Maximus]

Remember that lake surfaces are always changing. Pressure ridges can be created with ice expansion and wind. Ice fisherman like to leave stuff laying around to hit as well.

Flat lighting makes it tough to see hard packed wind drifts. The gear doesn't love the abuse.


Sudden snow squalls that cover your fuel and shelter can also be a bummer... Don't forget to carry enough stuff to stay warm!

[Torch]

I am gonna have to learn how to fly a Super Cub on skis. Looks like fun.

[energytech]

All good information but if you happen to get someone to fly over while you need help there are signals to communicate with another plane in the air. If you don't know them then you can't communicate. I keep an old Alaska survival guide from the 50s in my emergency gear that has many tips like this http://www.wilderness-survival.net/chp19.php

About fifteen years or so ago I was flying to Fairbanks from a remote homestead about 110 miles west of town. It was a rare heavy snow year and I had been stuck with my PA-20 for hours at the homestead and you know it's deep when you can't open the door because the snow is blocking it. Anyway, I worked my but off to finally get out. Shoveling, snowshoeing, shoveling, snowshoe paking a ramp up to my makeshift runway, yep, it's uphill to get out of a hole... on and on. When I finally got it flying again I meandered back, flying over several lakes close to my route and found a C-170 that appeared mired in the middle of one. Two guys, without snowshoes, were making a path toward a cabin a fair ways away so I flew by at about 30' agl but they made no effort to communicate with me. Not being sure if they needed help or not I did one more fly-by, this time lower and slower, but still they just looked at me without any arm movement or other signaling. On that pass while intent on watching them I touched... something... and launched up with big eyes now. ALWAYS fly the airplane! Not wanting to land and risk getting stuck for no apparent reason I continued back to town.

A couple days later I heard back from one of those guys, who I just happend to know, and he was still fairly agitated that I didn't land as they were really stuck and could have used help with my snowshoes and shovel. I explained to him that he needed to tell me that when I flew by using the signal for "need assistance". He agreed with me that they made no attempt to communicate with me as they didn't know how and they believed I was going to land. Wrong! Learn the basics and if nothing else, lay down. This is the signal for needing medical assistance and should work providing the circling pilot is home with his lights on.

Communication works!

[aktango58]

Jason, are you listening????

I might add to MTV's: make your fist couple of passes with speed and only one notch of flaps. If she grabs, and tries to bog down you have the speed and flaps at hand to jump back out... if you don't and she grabs and sinks, you be STUCK!!

Been there, done that, got to spend the night...

A good camp stove is nice to get warm with also, after you have made a runway on the overflow, causing yourself to sweat and be warm, then set up camp because it is late and you are not going to fly home until morning, you will want food and to dry yourself out.

Sweating and cold cause hypothermia. Being hot and sweaty, and wet means you need to get into a sleeping bag and sleep while wet, and get up to everything around frozen, (you hope).

[Cubus Maximus]

Flat light kinda' day.

[njneer]

<snip>
4) Beware low sun angles and overcast days. Flat light can be VERY dangerous.
<snip>
6) As with any other off airport flying program, you MUST be very proficient in flying your airplane. In deep or untracked snow, you are going to have to do a lot of site evaluation and pioneering, and that means multiple low passes while looking out the window. You are going to be doing a lot of maneuvering at low level. That is NOT a good place to be if you're not quite comfortable in the airplane and proficient. I have found that most pilots become quite comfortable and complacent VERY quickly in the low level environment, and very soon in their exposure to this venue, they'll be pulling really steep banks, close to the ground and at high alpha. That's a recipe for disaster.

MTV

Two things to add to this post:

a) "Flat light can be VERY dangerous." Spruce boughs or other similar objects tossed out the window at regular intervals will provide you a visual reference for finding the surface, but they will not identify hazards trapped in the ice like pressure ridges, drifts or any other gatchas

b) Multiple passes while looking out the window... Make your pass and look out the window on the flat and level. Make your turns when your attention is back in the plane. I caution you to not make turns about a point while low and slow in flat light. If you are studying the ground you are not paying enough attention to the plane to make turns. Make several passes from several different directions over your intended landing spot. Maybe you'll spot that shado that will save your gear.


I like to fly up to the local glacier and hike around the icebergs. On one flat light day, I landed on the lake in a spot I knew was relatively free of trapped icebergs. I marked my touchdown spot and flew several passes over that spot. On my final run, one of my ski tails tagged the top of a small iceberg about 3 feet tall, just 50 feet or so from my touchdown spot. A little lower and I would have completed my landing on one ski. Never, in all my passes, saw that chunk of ice. It was about 3 feet high, 10-12 feet across and dusted with snow. I recommend not looking for new landing spots on flat light days, but if you must, be extra careful.

[mvivion]

Here's a ski strip groomed and marked at a cabin so that flat light is less of a problem..

Groomed for skis.JPGGroomed for skis.JPG

North of 66 the sun never gets very high and the days are short. This was leaving to head back to civilization. Very bad light.

48980030.JPG

More Overflow, and note bad light. It's a bad photo because this is really what the light is like on a low light day.
48980006.JPG48980006.JPG

Sometimes early in the season, or if theres lots of overflow, it's safer to land in a meadow than on lake ice

48980032.JPG48980032.JPG

Can anyone tell me why this thing is posting double images on some??

MTV

[JP]

Great stuff and great reading as we get ready for the ski season (I'm still looking at green grass out the window...)! Above all, remember ski flying is wicked fun (as they say in these parts)!! So have at it!

[Gary Fields]

I just finished four straight days of ski flying in and around the Susitna Valley. This was my first ski flying experience. All of the information posted on this sight helped prepare me. Steve Williams of Acme Cub Training was in the back seat the entire time. All of his instruction made more sense having read all of these posts. We had two days of decent sunlight and two days of overcast, light snow, flat light. What a World of difference! On one of the good light days we made multiple uphill landings on Mt Susitna, near the top. The surface was a little rough, but quite a hoot. Also did some landings in a meadow that required multiple passes to make a runway. One of the highlights today was stopping at Luce's on the Skwentna for lunch.

[courierguy]

I did some ski flying today, but due to the lack of snow even at 6,000 feet, I used the wheels for takeoff and landing and never made ONE ski landing in a 1.4 hr flight. I'm starting to feel stupid flying around with snowshoes in the baggage compartment? High enough (9 K) for decent snow, too steep, narrow, and rocky. C'mon winter!

[Dave Calkins]

Lotsa it here.

Cold, light, fluff.

....daylight increasing every day!!!!!

[JP]

Green grass here. Washed the car today. Never done that on Jan 1st in Maine.

[slowmover]

Steve Williams of Acme Cub Training was in the back seat.

Steve Williams is The Man. I learned alot from flying with him. Here I am following him around the Valley one day in 2002.

I would like to take my 180 to Alaska just to fly with him for a couple of days.

[spinner2]

It hasn't been a very good snow year so far in Montana either but the first day of 2012 worked out for some fun in the snow.

DSCN2187.JPG

First stop was Schafer Meadow. I like how much tighter I can make a turn with a tail ski. This is in about 10" of soft stuff on top of about 15" of hard stuff. I don't consider it powder unless I need to put on the snow shoes and I didn't here.

[mvivion]

Contrary to what some folks say, I've never found a down side to using a tail ski, and in many conditions, as you say, they make life a LOT easier.

MTV

[spinner2]

Contrary to what some folks say, I've never found a down side to using a tail ski, and in many conditions, as you say, they make life a LOT easier.

MTV

DSCN2184.JPG

I agree, all benefits; turns tighter without blasts of power and it keeps the tail feathers out of the snow.

[Dave Calkins]

SuperCub works pretty good without one. No NEED to have one if you're just gonna try out skis....BUT, if you gonna be loaded and in deeip snow, you will get stuck less, turn better, and have shorter takeoffs with a tail ski. But lots of guys are out there without and don't think they need one.

It is not at all a necessity in snow like the picture above.

[Dave Calkins]

SuperCub works pretty good without one. No NEED to have one if you're just gonna try out skis....BUT, if you gonna be loaded and in deeip snow, you will get stuck less, turn better, and have shorter takeoffs with a tail ski. But lots of guys are out there without and don't think they need one.

It is not at all a necessity in snow like the picture above.

Spinner, is that a rudder trim tab? Do those gap seals pooch out like that all the time? The duct tape style lay beautifully flat,,,,,and come in white if you like.

[spinner2]

It is not at all a necessity in snow like the picture above.

I agree but the deeper it gets the nicer it is. A poor snow year for us so far.

Spinner, is that a rudder trim tab?

Yes it is. I like a tab so I can tweak it as needed.

Do those gap seals pooch out like that all the time?

Yes they do at times. It came in a loose coil and there hasn't been any warm weather since installation. I think it will quit that once it gets hot.

The duct tape style lay beautifully flat,,,,,and come in white if you like.

I like the gap seals.