Water assisted landing technique

[Olibuilt]

I would like to learn how to do a water assisted landing with my Cub. I don't have anybody to teach me the ''how to''. I supposed I have to touch the water a little faster and have the brakes slightly locked, Then slow down before touching the ground. But I'm sure I have a lot more to learn.

What speed do you aim for touching the water? Brake or not?

And what about a water assisted take off?


Thanks

[mongo]

The brakes don't have to be locked.
It is based on the speed of the water so when you begin only go up river. You will feel a high frequency vibration as you slow so will it. Keep it fast for a while if it starts to hop go full power immediately with full back pressure or you will flip......

I would recommend calling Lonnie an get some proper training first.
http://cubdriver749er.com/

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

[ag-pilot]

To start, don't play in water that is more that 3-4" deep. I let the tires spin up usually but it works with the brakes locked. Depending on tire size and cub weight you want to keep your over the water speed up over 35 or so in deep water and work your way down. Shallow water will compress a bit and you can go slower. Be ready with power and if the tail starts to rise GO. I would steer completly clear of using water on takeoff for awhile.. That still scares me cuz your going from shallow to deep instead of the other way around on landing. If you miss judge a takeoff by 10 feet your gonna get wet! and it might be pretty deep.

Dave

[spinner2]

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...t+landing+roll

[Bobby Breeden]

Watch these two videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6B8-PNYjzk

http://www.youtube.com/user/toddscdds#p/u/7/chsD90I8WEk

What size tires do you have? that makes a big difference in the speed at which the tires will penetrate through the water. I have been told that the minimum hydroplaning speed is 'Nine times the square-root of the tire pressure', therefore the lower the pressure, the slower the minimum speed will be. I suggest trying it faster at first, like around 50 mph with one notch of flaps and watching the airspeed closely because the drag will slow you down. It does take power to keep your speed up. Other than that it is similar to a wheel landing.

The minimum hydroplaning speed of 35's with 2.5 psi will be a lot slower than the wing can fly. 20 mph vs 35 mph.

Be careful on glassy water, your altitude can be deceiving. If there is a current try to go against the current because it acts just like a headwind on your tires as far as relative speeds go when they are hydroplaning. Ideally there would be no current and no wind to start out OR a headwind while landing up stream if that makes sense.

Your brakes will be wet so they will not be as effective as usual. Let the tires spin up first so the brakes get wet evenly, then add some brakes to prepare for deceleration on the land. You do not want uneven water distribution on the discs or they could grab unexpectedly. That part is not really a big deal, just something to be cautious of.

Take offs are a little tricky because you have to know whether or not you will be going fast enough for your tires to hydroplane when you hit the water.

I'm sure I missed a few things. Just go out and try water skiing, it's FUN!

-Bobby Breeden

[Steve Pierce]

I started touching my tires on the water and got a feel for it. Eventually started doing it while rolling up smooth banks. It was all by feel. Gotta be careful because sometimes you are able to get into places that are hard to get out of. Don't attempt if you are not willing to dunk it.

[Bill Ingerson]

I know alot of guys that do this and its a big help when landing short on a small river bar. But be sure its worth it to land there. I have several friends with alot of time behind a cub that wrecked this year so its easy to do. Prop strike and rebuilt wings and maybe a very damaged airplane can cost alot of money and time.
But if you need to do it, go see Lonnie for sure.

Bill

[swoeric]

even on 850's you can really get a feel for how your power and speed adjustments give you different feelings. Like Pierce said give water skiing a try and you will quickly get a feel for what is too slow and too fast feels like for your plane....when i started i stayed glued to my gps and started at 65 mph (small tires) just as i pinned it to the water i would bump the throttle 100-200 rpm. with long sections of water skiing you will really get a feel for how hard you can push on the water surface for a given speed

[swoeric]

PS.... im really glad to see several folks here share what they have learned on this controversial subject...seems like so many other times it was shunned or kept secret ...I think the knowledge transfer is great and that we can decide for ourselves what our own risk limitations are...thank you all for contributing

[Steve Pierce]

I never looked anywhere but outside but got a good feel for it. I got real slow right before making the bank and felt her wanting to flip. It will scare the you know what out of ya. Make sure you can get out of anywhere you can land and beware of obstacles, power lines, logs etc.

[68Papa]

It's all about ground speed. Forget your airspeed indicator and keep your eyes on your GPS. Going up river increases ground speed; not really an issue when going up river. Do not let yourself/ground speed get to slow going down river. That mistake could cost more than you are willing to pay! Be smart, be very careful!

RD

[16-bravo]

A good rule of thumb, is to NEVER land down river with a headwind. Just like 68papa said, its all about ground speed. If you dont have a really good feel for your plane, you probably shouldnt be doing it.

[Fortysix12]

I was traning with a very qualified instructor several years ago in Alaska and came as close as I want to wrecking a Super Cub. The winds where 25 gusting to 30plus. A little ground school discussion on physics of hydroplaning including minimum speed at which the phenom occures. Indicated air speed was as discussed, instructor in the back but one little problem. Our ground speed was in the neighborhood of 20 mph which is not hydroplaning speed. We dug in so hard that I thought we were going over, I'm not sure if it was my reflexes or just luck but we survived. I powered up, stick back all the while we were digging in with water coming in every nook and craney, windshield obscurred and accelerated stop G forces rivaling an aircraft carrier trap. I should add that it was a successful go around, we ended up on the bar and launched almost instantly. Water assisted landing looks good on film when executed by expert cub pilots ,but not a technique I will need in my type of back country flying. http://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/...roplaning.html .

[Olibuilt]

Thanks for the input guys. I was told to have the wheel locked or it will sink.... Good thing I asked.

My plane is a 1200+ pound 180hp exp cub, McCauley 1A200-82-42, 6'' extexdend gear (for winter ski flying) with 31'' BushWheels.


I don't ''have to'' do water assisted landing but I love to lurn new techniques.

I usualy run around 8 psi in the tires. Is this too much for water sking? Does it grabs the water when you touch (like sometimes when floats landings) ?

I found a couple long beach to start playing with really smooth river banks.



I'll try touch the water at around 50mph to get the feeling then working my speed down.


Thank you very much for your reply

[Steve Pierce]

I would need a HUD and an accurate airspeed indicator to know what my speed is but probably still wouldn't pay attention to it.

[Steve Pierce]

Jeff, Your link is about hydroplaning with a thin film of water between your tire and the runway.

[Patrol Guy]

2011flyin1250.jpg

...but if you insist on ignoring sound advise, here is Bobby going up stream, from deep to shallow with 31's (at 01:15 to 01:35).

[Fortysix12]

Steve,

True, but either it's hydoplaning or landing/rolling on rocks 3 inches below water. True hydroplaning is determined by the basic formula of 9 x the square root of the tire pressure. For alaska bush wheels around 27mph. This an over simplfied formula but it was what we studied the day we went out to learn and practice the technique. I think we used 33 that day. Perhaps we were off base to even consider hydroplaning as it relates to water assisted landings and we just picked too deep of water. I know one thing for sure, my ground speed was too slow to create to dynamic hydroplaning as it relates to aircraft tires. The fact that bush tires do not have tread improves the abitlity for the tire to hydroplane .

I think this discussion has very relative information as well. http://www.nlr-atsi.nl/id~15600.pdf

[Steve Pierce]

I'm a dumb ass and can't do the math. I just feel the airplane.

Fast.
IMG_0912 (Medium).JPG

A little to slow, notice the tires digging in.
IMG_0920 (Medium).JPG

[mongo]

A good rule of thumb, is to NEVER land down river with a headwind. Just like 68papa said, its all about ground speed. If you dont have a really good feel for your plane, you probably shouldnt be doing it.

Very true
I will be doing some repair work this winter due to this....

[aktango58]

6'' extexdend gear (for winter ski flying)

Atlee would not make me the 6" gear, said I would tear them off flying skis because of the long arm, and put lots of pressure on attach fittings...

Just a thought

[mongo]

A good rule of thumb, is to NEVER land down river with a headwind. Just like 68papa said, its all about ground speed. If you dont have a really good feel for your plane, you probably shouldnt be doing it.

<br><br><br>

Very True,
I will be doing some repair work this winter due to this....
The biggest thing is to be quick with the throttle, don't just add a little if in trouble, add it all.

[btracy]

champ on ice.jpgAnd if you misjudge.

[Fortysix12]

Steve,
You're no DA,and I'm quite sure you can do the math, we just need to work on your self esteem. \

[Dave Calkins]

Anyone ever get into a weird "hop" when they get too slow in deep water? Only time I got it was when I thinking I was getting too slow and then it did this "hopping" thing. I got it out with power, but don't ever want to get there again.....that was a long time ago on 30" Airstreaks at 3.5 PSI in deep water.

AKtango......"...Atlee would not make me the 6" gear, said I would tear them off flying skis because of the long arm, and put lots of pressure on attach fittings..."

George, physics agrees.....but in the real world are 6" extended gear any more likely to rip off than 3"? Assuming the longerons and tabs are in good shape?. Also...ever look at the length of those pedestal's on Atlee's skis??? Those suckers are great for ski performance...but I bet they are a long moment arm trying to rip the gear off the airplane a lot worse than, say, Airglas-height pedestals?!?!

Water skipping..........I get the numbers thing, but I never ever look at the gauges.

[OLDCROWE]

VERY TRICKY TECHNIQUE, IT ONLY WORKS WITH THE PROPER MUSIC IN THE HEADPHONES.

Might I suggest:


"splish, splash
I was taking a flight
long about a saturday night
hub-a-hub
just relaxing in my cub
thinking everything was all right

well ... the roof was on the floor and I was
a hangen and a danglen,
rolling and a cussen...
so I wrapped a towel around my head
and then I opened the door

and ... then ... splish, splash
I cracked my hard head
well ... how was I to know
there was an insurance claim going on
I was splishing and a splashing
while they was reeling with the laughter
moving and a grooving
rocking and a rolling

bing, bang
I saw the whole gang
dancing on my little sand bar
flip flop and I was doing the hop
all them old friends had the shimmy going on
there was Avemco and the Rebuilders and
good golly, they all had flip flop hats gong on
well ... splish, splash
I forgot about the NTSB and the FAA

so I went and put my rebuilding shoes on
I was a hangen and a droppen
order’n and waiten reeling with the feeling
to be moving and a grooven
splishing and a splashing

yes ... I was a filing and a waiting
dreamen and a pacing
when I'll be moving and a grooving
back to reeling with the feeling
when we was a rolling and a strolling
moving with the grooving
splish, splash ... yeah!"

[Tim]

Very good Kirby

[irishfield]

Thanks for the Monday chuckle oldcrowe!!!

[jgerard]

Yeah Dave, I have gotten the "hop" going a few times and just pushed the throttle in and blasted out of there each time. I was playing around with a tailwind on a one way in bar up river landing in a turn. You could do a go around if you started soon enough but you couldn't land the opposite direction safely.

I decided to abort on about the 3rd hop when I decided that it was getting worse instead of better. I would have guessed that in about 2 more hops the tires would have dug in hard and flipped the plane.

I didn't have to be there, The conditions were not favorable, and I wasn't on my game that day so I left. I feel its important to know when to quit and go home for the day.

Jason

[swoeric]

I havent ever come close to flipping in water(knocking on wood) but i did find some mud on a grass strip on 6x6 tires...I can tell you the mixture and throttle cables almost pushed the carb off the motor as they were being held in...the yoke was almost to the rear baggage....and i was more than half way bent over the back of the seat.....the plane came to a stop i looked over the instructor. He was in the same pose and we were running almost all 85 hp going no where stuck in the clay mud past the axle and breathing hard. good thing we had the adrenaline to help us get out and lift the plane out of the mud

[beaver18]

And if you hit the water too hard then this is it been there done that C-FQYF.JPG

[Olibuilt]

Where is that beach? I'm still looking for it around the St-Lawrence River. You should come with me near St-Jovite to teach me the ''how not to do'' water assisted landing.


Take care Jean-Guy

[dalec]

And if you hit the water too hard then this is it been there done that

It must of been the landing gear fairings.... just one more reason to leave them uncovered

[Steve Pierce]

champ on ice.jpgAnd if you misjudge.

I know you have a better picture than that.

[adventruousairman]

Is there really any need to do a water assisted landing? Buy a set of floats and play in the water all day.

[OLDCROWE]

I know you have a better picture than that.

Taunting are we...

[aktango58]

Floats are great, but I get tired of washing the grass stains off, and they suk on paved strips...

At least with tires they are self cleaning on the water

One gal was asked, moments after she went by her brother (as he was sunk to the top of the windshield of his sled in the river), why we played with our sleds on open water water skipping when we could just buy jetskis. her reply: "they don't work worth a S*** on snow!

[supercub]

Flirting with wrecking your airplane for NO reason at all. Do a good 3 point full stall landing (on land) and you'll get in shorter and a lot safer.

[mongo]

You will get in safer but definitely not shorter.
Using water you can stop in 1-2 plane lengths every time.
And danger is fun.....

Sent from my HTC Evo using Tapatalk

[supercub]

I haven't seen anyone in a video get stopped in 1-2 airplanes lengths using the water technique. If they do stop short using water, it's only becuase the water is so shallow and the tires are running on the ground under the water. How can you stop shorter when you have to keep up enough speed so the wings are creating enough lift so the plane doesn't sink into the water. Granted the tires will give you a little floatation, but not enough to offset the excess airspeed. However, keep doing your water assist landing if you want. I'll keep playing it safe and enjoy flying while you're repairing you plane.......one of these days.