Alot of you guys have done it. If i were to build a cub with a stock 0-320 without an electrical system would this get old real fast? Do my 90 all the time and dont ever think about it. doug
Alot of you guys have done it. If i were to build a cub with a stock 0-320 without an electrical system would this get old real fast? Do my 90 all the time and dont ever think about it. doug
I never thought of it as a big deal, doug, only if on floats wind and currents sometimes hurries things.
Just be careful of too much timing. Kickbacks hurt.
The best mod for any aircraft is more gas.
Doug,Originally Posted by tempdoug
I never thought it was a big deal with a 90-65. I can prop my 160 cub no problem but my biggest fear is messing up my rotator cuff (shoulder) or something because I always prop from behind.
Tim
Piper J-5A C-90 N40877
J-5 Project Pictures
Easy with impulse mags. Really tough if your mechanic gets the prop indexed wrong. We get them back from Cub Crafters with the prop in the wrong position for hand propping a sea plane. Then it is impossible.
in eliminating the electrical starter, i believe you will find yourself needing to pay intimate attention to" motor tune", ie; mag timing, point gap, correct idle mixture, and tecnique. when any of these start to slip.... there u are out in the woods. winded and tired, sitting on your tire with that sore,tired arm/shoulder. an electric starter overcomes a lot of tuning slop/issues a lot easier than you can.
mr bob, do we index seaplane props differently than landplanes? or are people just slapping props on land planes indescriminately?
i always index my prop so i can stay proficent, lest the electrical accumulator come up a little short
...he was so far behind the airplane, he wasn't even a good witness to the crash
I removed my starter on my 360 and once you get the technique down 2-4 blades every time
Just a note I only have one impulse due to the single drive dual mag P.O.S.
dual impulse mags would be sweet
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Hand starting an engine with a single impulse mag is simple: Start it on the left mag only. This should be the case whether you're hand propping or starting with electricity.
I agree that keeping your engine "tweaked" is essential if you're hand propping, but that's not rocket science either.
Many outfits now index props on O-360s to 12 and 6 for vibration reduction reasons. This makes them VERY difficult to hand prop. They can be re-indexed, but this requires moving index pins, which is a bit more than just moving the prop. Have some spare pins handy in case the old ones are damaged. Once the prop is re-indexed, do a dynamic prop balance, and you won't see any more vibration than with the prop at 12/6. The 12/6 indexing seems to be the "idiot default" for folks who don't consider dynamic balancing these engines/props. Dynamic balancing is a GREAT idea for any engine/prop.
I won't fly an airplane regularly with a prop indexed to 12 and 6. Sooner or later, you'll wind up in a situation where your battery is dead, or the starter shot, and the nearest "current bush" is a hundred miles south. Having the skills and the airplane set up right makes it a no sweat kind of thing.
I never liked sleeping out at -40.....
MTV
Last edited by mvivion; 10-15-2011 at 07:24 AM.
I've been hand starting a O-320 for the last few years with an electrical system!! I just don't have a primmer and as such the toll on the battery is too much and they don't last. Add Delco-Remy genie into the equation and it's all violins.
Hand starting without a battery but a primmer should be a piece of cake. And yes I start on the left mag which can be tricky solo. By the time I've got back to the cockpit the engine has often stopped. I'd be interested to hear if others hand starting and priming have any such issues.
Last edited by texmex; 10-15-2011 at 05:55 PM.
Can't say mine has ever died before I switch to both mags, sounds like a weak mag or too low of a throttle position.
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Just travel with Lou, he's good at it...
"Illegitimis non carborundum"
Not mentioned here yet, but I thought you wanted your blades to stop (a blade) at around 10-11 o'clock when standing in front of the plane looking at your prop. Also, don't you want to move through compression about 9 o'clock?
What are the index pins that MTV mentions? I know of the index pin for the starter crank gear/ timing mark plate, but didn't think it indexed the prop. More info desired....
"If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman
The pins which drive the prop are all the same size but one, which mates with the given hole on the prop. To rotate the prop around you must press these pins out and fit them to the desired locations.
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I have pretty much the same question...If two of the cylinders are at TDC, where exacty is the prop to be indexed? 9 and 3 O' Clock?
Mongo I find it just will not start if the throttle is not closed or almost closed. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's like a choke with that butterfly valve closed or maybe it needs to be closed to create a suction off a fuel jet. Obviously I have no idea why.sounds like a weak mag or too low of a throttle position.
I do know that I've purchased a priming system and can't wait for it to be installed.
Tempdoug - If there was a voting poll I'd check the nice to have but not essential box re starter.
What kind of prop set up you have ???you don't need to remove the crankshaft pins to rotate the prop on a fixed pitch 0-320
Steve C.
The Larger index pin in the crank flange is to index the flywheel so the timing marks are in the correct position. They have nothing to do with the position of the prop.
agree..
think he is thinking of 'some' of the o-360 with the 4 long and 2 short bushings.....
mr bob, do we index seaplane props differently than landplanes? or are people just slapping props on land planes indescriminately?
Now I get it - the O-360 Amphib came with a hollow crank. So CC did what they had to, and it cannot be hand propped because of the pins.
And a local shop returned an O-320 with the prop set that way, making it exceedingly difficult to start from in front, and impossible from behind. I can start a properly indexed Cub from either in front or behind. I always have a glove handy.
If you have no primer, you must use the idle bleed for fuel on a cold start. That is why your engine will not start cold with the throttle cracked - no fuel. Unless you use the accelerator pump, which might put a lot of fuel below the carb.
They put a primer on these things for good reasons, BAD idea not to have one. They might get you home some day if the carb. breaks too.
As others have said, hand propping is not difficult if prop, mags, carb etc are set right, once you get a routine.....problem comes when your routine is changed....like hot and/or flooded engine....if not careful, next thing you know the airplane is leaving you behind.
Jack
I think you should find a good shrink, someone who can get to the root of your flawed thinking process, if you are considering a no starter/O-320 super cub....I had a friend who used to follow me around in a F-19 Taylorcraft with an O-320/no starter....what a pain in my a** to hand prop that O-320 every time he couldn't get it started....Just put a starter on the thing and be done with it.
Flying in the lower 48 I can't think of one reason or situation I would need to remove or build an an airplane without an electrical system. Leave 3 gallons of gas off for the same weight performance. I'd build and wire up the airplane with an electrical system then if you change your mind its' only a morning of reinstallations. Power overcomes weight. Build power.
Nanook, thats sortve what im looking for in an answer. After i found what my continental was looking for in starting, i have never had to touch the prop the second time to start. Just mainly wondering if a 0-320 can be pleased in this way? doug
I described the bushings on a hollow crank O-360 as pins in error. The bushings can be re-indexed legally IF the TC provides for it. On the Husky, the original design had the prop indexed at 10/4, with the bushings appropriately located for that index. Aviat then changed the indexing, I believe at the recommendation of Hartzell to a 12/6 indexing, and all subsequent airplanes have come out with that indexing. This was done with a service bulletin, though, which means you can still re-index the prop to 10/4. This requires moving the bushings, though.
Our Top Cub has the prop indexed at 10/4, as it should be. Not sure if all the Top Cubs are this way or not.
As I noted, having been left out in the cold on skis with a crappy battery (pre-Odyssey), I want to be ABLE to hand prop any airplane I'm flying if at all possible.
At this stage of life, I'd never consider building a plane with no starter if an electrical system was any kind of option. As folks have noted, the new generation of batteries/starters/alternators are super light and reliable. Doesn't mean you have to install a dozen landing lights/strobes/position lights/boom boxes, etc, though, just because you have electricity.
MTV
Tempdoug, the first plane I owned had a C-85, two impulse couplings, if you just looked at it right it would start hand propping it. The O-320 with one impulse coupling is a horse of a different color...there is a lot more mass/ compressed air to overcome in the O-320....if you flood it hot, you need to clear it...if it is cold....well you get the idea....I'm sure anyone can eventually get all the scenarios figured out. The question remains, why would you want to?
The envelope please: Because you are trying to build a PA-18 150 clone with 1320 gross weight. Maybe the AOPA and EAA will fix that problem.
I have seen at least a half-dozen planes destroyed by getting away from the hand propper. Two actually flew away, those were the lucky ones...The ones that stayed close to home chewed their way through all sorts of carnage....some with people hanging on for dear life.... Everyone has been stuck somewhere in the North country having to hand prop to get home....to design an airplane that you have to hand prop every time you want to fly....you have got to have more than a couple screws loose....I hope you have good insurance......
I can think of four I have worked on that got away or got ate...(probably more..)
- T-craft.. flew away quite nicely... landed in alders by itself.... still flyable afterwards(didn't look that good before, and didn't look no worse after! ;-p) (nothing like a customer mentioning at annual time, that the plane had done this last summer...)
- Aeronica Sedan.. handpropper and friend hanging on ONE strut as it spun and chewed off wing of another airplane(actually that Tcraft on its nose on big tires I posted before).. not mention what it did to itself..
- Aeronica cheif or champ the guy JUST purchased that day.. ate a citabria wing, and a C-182 tail, then departed?, not mention what it did to itself.. there was no itself left.....
- C-180.. made a nice big dent in Aero-twins hanger... not mention what it did to itself.. there was no itself left.....
Last edited by mike mcs repair; 10-18-2011 at 03:06 AM.
Works good-- Last a long time
N969DJ_009.jpg
If you're going there, I've seen alot more than that be torn up by groundlooping, so why would anyone design an airplane with a tailwheel? C'mon... it's all in procedure and knowing what you're doing...get careless and something will most likely go wrong. I've seen alot of "handprop only" aircraft that NEVER had a runaway...mine's one of them!
John
When it comes to hand propping, most people don't think about the Number 1 Rule: Always prop witht the fuel "Off" when you are by yourself.
and that will get you what??? some spectacular crashes from taking off with the fuel valve in off position, just enough fuel in carb to get you good and airborne... one guy I know did it 2 times
If it is going to get away, it is going to get away. turning the fuel off will minimize how long of a flight it makes. It will minimize how long it runs while some unlucky person is hanging on to the wing strut with dear life trying to catch up with the plane as it running wild. Those guys can leave their fuel on, I'll leave mine off.
thats freakin funny as hell ......... thanks for that ....
- T-craft.. flew away quite nicely... landed in alders by itself.... still flyable afterwards(didn't look that good before, and didn't look no worse after! ;-p) (nothing like a customer mentioning at annual time, that the plane had done this last summer...)
I struggle getting mine going hot usually 10 + blades clearly I haven't quite figured it out yet ....... cold is no problem usually 2 or 3 blades ...... certainly something worth being familiar with .....
I really enjoy hand proping my cub, and I always do it from behind the prop. Only one time have I wished I had a starter, the mag had some condensation and wouldn't fire very well. So I swung the engine out and fixed it, strated right up. If your going to hand prop I recommend carrying some double sided emery cloth it can be a life saver.
If I had to do it from the front I would have left the starter on.
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